Can You Brew It recipe for Wychwood Hobgoblin

[DSmith]

I'm rebrewing for a 3rd time right now. here is what I have for 5gal

Golden Promise (TF) 7lb 4oz 72.5 %
Maris Otter (TF) 1lb 12oz 17.5 %
Crystal 75 (Baird's) 12.00 oz 7.5
Chocolate Malt (Baird's) 3.25 oz 2.0 %
Sugar - Molasses 0.75 oz 0.5 %


Hops
Slovenian Styrian Goldings 4.0 % 0.50 oz FWH
East Kent Goldings 6.5 % 0.50 oz FWH
Slovenian Styrian Goldings 4.0 % 2.25 oz 1 Min
US Cascade 6.0 % 0.75 oz 1 Min

wy1318 London Ale 3

I'm sticking pretty close to the original. I had 1lb 12oz of MO left over from a previous sack. I couldn't source any Simpsons malts so using Bairds. I didn't have any fuggles so subbing in Styrian Goldings. Using .75oz of black strap for the sugar. Using a repitch of London 3. I'll let you know in a few weeks how it turned out.

Please post your review of this recipe when it's ready. I had a bottle of mine tonight and thought (taste-bud memory) that the malt was extremely close to the bottled version as the late hops have faded a lot. I prefer this beer with a few months of age vs sooner.

 

[gbx]

I tried it on the weekend and it is way too hoppy right now. I just bought a couple bottles of commercial hobgoblin and will do a side by side in a couple weeks.

 

[hawkeyes]

16g Cascade 5.75%AA 15'
64g Styrian Goldings 5.25%AA 15'

As anyone ever tried moving the 15 minute hop additions to a post boil hop stand?

 

[adam01]

Has anyone had any updates on their brews ? This is coming up again. The samuel Smith brown I brewed, which was fantastic, will be replaced with Hobgoblin.

 

[Oginme]

I just finished doing this recipe a few weeks back. Bottles are cold conditioning now, but tried an early one and it's pretty close to the real thing. Maybe a tad bit hoppier than the bottled stuff. I'm going to pick up another Hobgoblin in a couple of weeks and do a side-by-side tasting w/SWMBO doing a blind sampling and see how close it really comes out.

 

[gbx]

I'm rebrewing for a 3rd time right now. here is what I have for 5gal

Golden Promise (TF) 7lb 4oz 72.5 %
Maris Otter (TF) 1lb 12oz 17.5 %
Crystal 75 (Baird's) 12.00 oz 7.5
Chocolate Malt (Baird's) 3.25 oz 2.0 %
Sugar - Molasses 0.75 oz 0.5 %


Hops
Slovenian Styrian Goldings 4.0 % 0.50 oz FWH
East Kent Goldings 6.5 % 0.50 oz FWH
Slovenian Styrian Goldings 4.0 % 2.25 oz 1 Min
US Cascade 6.0 % 0.75 oz 1 Min

wy1318 London Ale 3

I'm sticking pretty close to the original. I had 1lb 12oz of MO left over from a previous sack. I couldn't source any Simpsons malts so using Bairds. I didn't have any fuggles so subbing in Styrian Goldings. Using .75oz of black strap for the sugar. Using a repitch of London 3. I'll let you know in a few weeks how it turned out.

Initially this beer was waaaaay too hoppy. Delicious but a crazy amount of styrian goldings. I originally kegged but bottled the last slightly cloudy bit and let it sit in the back of the closet until now and decided to do a side by side with a commercial bottle.

The colour is very very close. Surprisingly, mine is a little clearer and appears maybe 1 or 2 srm darker. (the homebrew is on the left in the pictures).

The aroma of mine is toffee, caramel, slight floral hopping, the commercial has a heavy oxidative note...not really sherry but more the dried mushroom oxidation you get in a bock.

The taste is pretty close (minus the oxidation in the commercial example). The malt is similar but mine is a bit more biscuity. The bitterness is a little higher in mine with the commercial slightly sweeter on the finish. Mine has low floral hop flavour but the commercial has none.

The mouthfeel is similar but the commercial feels like it has a higher FG.

Overall its a decent attempt but not cloned. I'm actually glad as I'm finding my unoxidized version more enjoyable. On the next rebrew I think I'll keep things pretty close except the late hops. I'll probably cut them in half.

 

[adam01]

So, based on two brewers, it looks like some simpsons malt is best.

It is interesting that a Med crystal 60 and a crystal 75 was one big difference between the two.

I guess I need some simpsons malts.

 

[gbx]

Initially this beer was waaaaay too hoppy. Delicious but a crazy amount of styrian goldings. I originally kegged but bottled the last slightly cloudy bit and let it sit in the back of the closet until now and decided to do a side by side with a commercial bottle.

The colour is very very close. Surprisingly, mine is a little clearer and appears maybe 1 or 2 srm darker. (the homebrew is on the left in the pictures).

The aroma of mine is toffee, caramel, slight floral hopping, the commercial has a heavy oxidative note...not really sherry but more the dried mushroom oxidation you get in a bock.

The taste is pretty close (minus the oxidation in the commercial example). The malt is similar but mine is a bit more biscuity. The bitterness is a little higher in mine with the commercial slightly sweeter on the finish. Mine has low floral hop flavour but the commercial has none.

The mouthfeel is similar but the commercial feels like it has a higher FG.

Overall its a decent attempt but not cloned. I'm actually glad as I'm finding my unoxidized version more enjoyable. On the next rebrew I think I'll keep things pretty close except the late hops. I'll probably cut them in half.

I found a six-pack that I had bottled off the keg and decided to enter it in 8B Special Bitter in the local comp. 2 score sheets. Here are the scores and overall impressions.

Judge 1. BJCP Certified, Professional Brewer: 32/50
A good example of a bitter. A bit dark for style with some light roast notes that are not quite to style. Possibly reduce dark malts a touch. Ester profile + hops fit well and firm bitterness hits nail on the head. GOOD

Judge 2. BJCP Certified: 29/50
Overall good but consider less dark malts (eg crystal) + more esters (stress the yeast)

Not too bad all things considered. When I tried one of the bottles a few weeks ago I thought it was great. I considered putting it in North Brown but the hops were saying special bitter. I can live with style complaints as I didn't brew to the BJCP guidelines.

 

[Jes2xu]

I've purchased ingredients to brew another clone attempt of Hobgoblin (bottled version) after the last comparision to the recipe posted in #54. The changes include using a less bready base-malt, little less chocolate malt and choosing a yeast known to leave a little more residual sweetness but hoping not to significantly increasing the final gravity. The hops are FWH & Whirlpool only per the CYBI interview.

Batch Size (Gal): 6.0
Anticipated OG: 1.052
Anticipated SRM: 14
Anticipated IBU: 25 Tinseth (1.0 Concentration Factor, 0.7 factor applied for FWH)
Mash Efficiency: 75%
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes
Est Final Gravity: 1.012
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.2 %

Amount Item Type % or IBU
10.0 lb Simpson's Golden Promise (90% of grainbill)
0.963 lb Simpson’s Medium Crystal Malt, 60L (8.7% of grainbill)
0.148 lb Simpson’s Chocolate Malt (1.3% of grainbill)

35 g UK Goldings (pellet, 5.8%, FWH)
35 g Fuggles (pellet, 4.5%, FWH)
16 g Cascade (pellet, 7.3%, 0 min)
64 g Styrian Goldings (pellet, 3.2%, 0 min)

Mash at 154F for 60 min
Wyeast 1318 London Ale III
Pitch at 63F, natural rise to 66F, temperature controlled at 66F
Carbonate to 2.0 vol CO2

Forgive a possibly stupid question or two here. But when I put this into my software (ibrewmaster2) I get a ibu count well into the 40's what am I doing wrong here?

And when a recipee states 0min hop addition, I assume you only get a 0IBU contribution if the hops are added after the wort is cooled to a certain temp? My logic follows that if they go in at flame out they are still in effect being "boiled" a bit as the wort is cooling.

Can some one give me a logic slap? apologies for the ignorance!

 

[DSmith]

Forgive a possibly stupid question or two here. But when I put this into my software (ibrewmaster2) I get a ibu count well into the 40's what am I doing wrong here?

And when a recipee states 0min hop addition, I assume you only get a 0IBU contribution if the hops are added after the wort is cooled to a certain temp? My logic follows that if they go in at flame out they are still in effect being "boiled" a bit as the wort is cooling.

Can some one give me a logic slap? apologies for the ignorance!

I get about 37 IBU (Rager) & 25 IBU (Tinseth), bittering only considered from FWH with 70% utilization factor. I think you're right about bitterness from the hop steep. Sometimes I chill to about 180F to avoid the bitterness but it doesn't seem to affect too much as long as the steep is short. This beer with some age (2-3 months after bottling) was a lot like the store-bought Hobgoblin. I preferred it fresher.

Using Tinseth results in using more hops but I find the bitterness to be more inline with what I expect when I read the IBU's on commercial beers.

 

[Jes2xu]

I get about 37 IBU (Rager) & 25 IBU (Tinseth), bittering only considered from FWH with 70% utilization factor. I think you're right about bitterness from the hop steep. Sometimes I chill to about 180F to avoid the bitterness but it doesn't seem to affect too much as long as the steep is short. This beer with some age (2-3 months after bottling) was a lot like the store-bought Hobgoblin. I preferred it fresher.



Using Tinseth results in using more hops but I find the bitterness to be more inline with what I expect when I read the IBU's on commercial beers.

Hmmm ok, I will give it another go later on tonight. But I think my FWH is set to 110% (I'm still new to brewing and especially this software so I need to check).

So is the idea of having it at 70% for FWH that although technically it will result in a higher IBU it is perceived as less as it is a "smoother" bitterness?

Awesome! Thanks for going to the effort of writing all this up. I had a hobgoblin a week ago, and thought " man if this had a little more hop character it would be amazing!". I'm guessing I'm going to dig it fresh too!


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[gbx]

Hmmm ok, I will give it another go later on tonight. But I think my FWH is set to 110% (I'm still new to brewing and especially this software so I need to check).

So is the idea of having it at 70% for FWH that although technically it will result in a higher IBU it is perceived as less as it is a "smoother" bitterness?

Awesome! Thanks for going to the effort of writing all this up. I had a hobgoblin a week ago, and thought " man if this had a little more hop character it would be amazing!". I'm guessing I'm going to dig it fresh too!


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The FWH will contribute slightly higher bittering than a 60min addition (assuming you are boiling for 60mins). Don't stress out too much over the calculated IBUs or anything else the software is telling you. Its just a ball park estimate at best.

 

[Jes2xu]

The FWH will contribute slightly higher bittering than a 60min addition (assuming you are boiling for 60mins). Don't stress out too much over the calculated IBUs or anything else the software is telling you. Its just a ball park estimate at best.

Cool thanks,

Was just thinking the difference between 25 and 48 ibu would be a fairly big change.

But considering it's going to be my second AG brew I'm guessing there will be much bigger problems than that! Haha


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[gbx]

Cool thanks,

Was just thinking the difference between 25 and 48 ibu would be a fairly big change.

But considering it's going to be my second AG brew I'm guessing there will be much bigger problems than that! Haha


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Yeah but 25 vs 48 what? the units have no meaning until you've brewed a few batches with formula.

Just brew the recipe as written the first time and then decide how you want to adjust it. ...and this is a great second AG recipe - you can screw this up quite a bit and it will still be good (ie, if the gravity comes in low you'll still get a nice hoppy ordinary bitter). I've brewed this recipe a few times and none have been "cloned" but they've all been enjoyable beers.

 

[Jes2xu]

Yeah but 25 vs 48 what? the units have no meaning until you've brewed a few batches with formula.



Just brew the recipe as written the first time and then decide how you want to adjust it. ...and this is a great second AG recipe - you can screw this up quite a bit and it will still be good (ie, if the gravity comes in low you'll still get a nice hoppy ordinary bitter). I've brewed this recipe a few times and none have been "cloned" but they've all been enjoyable beers.

Ah yeah I see what you mean there!

Looking forward to brewing it! Unfortunately I'm going to have to sub out most of the ingredients as I can't get my hands on them here. But like you say I hope it's going to be a nice beer either way


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[gbx]

Unfortunately I'm going to have to sub out most of the ingredients as I can't get my hands on them here. /QUOTE]

What ingredients are you missing? Maybe we can help with suggesting substitutions. The very first time I attempted to brew this, I couldn't get any of the hops. When I asked the LHBS for fuggles, they suggested willamette. When I asked for goldings, they suggested willamette. When I asked for styrian goldings, they suggested willamette. So basically I had almost all willamette with a tiny bit of cascade. If I was in that situation again, I'd probably go with willamette for the fuggles and goldings and then go with saaz for the styrians.

Malts are an easier sub and it wouldn't too wrong with all north american malts if you can't get anything british.

 

[Jes2xu]

Unfortunately I'm going to have to sub out most of the ingredients as I can't get my hands on them here. /QUOTE]



What ingredients are you missing? Maybe we can help with suggesting substitutions. The very first time I attempted to brew this, I couldn't get any of the hops. When I asked the LHBS for fuggles, they suggested willamette. When I asked for goldings, they suggested willamette. When I asked for styrian goldings, they suggested willamette. So basically I had almost all willamette with a tiny bit of cascade. If I was in that situation again, I'd probably go with willamette for the fuggles and goldings and then go with saaz for the styrians.



Malts are an easier sub and it wouldn't too wrong with all north american malts if you can't get anything british.

Thank!

Originally I couldn't find fuggles, but the online store I may use seems to have "fuggles finishing hops" now. So that should work. It seems I can get The other hops, although I will use up the New Zealand cascade I have left over.

For the grains I can't get any of the Simpsons. At the moment I am planning on TF golden promise and Bairds crystal/chocolate. Does that sound like it will work? I mean I'm sure it will be a nice beer but in terms of trying to stay close to the recipe.


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[Jes2xu]

So I brewed this a while ago, I'm about 4 days into the fermentation now.

Here is what I brewed in the end. The changes are due to availability and also the mash efficiency i expected with BIAB. I'm still new to it and trying to get it dialled in. Hoping it works out!

Bit surprised at the efficiency I got though! . . . I wonder if there is a problem with either how I'm using this software, or with the software itself.






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[DSmith]

I used ProMash and see that your grain weights & post boil volume result in a 60% mash efficiency for 1.049 OG. If your actual OG was 1.059 and you hit all your volumes, you actually got 72% mash efficiency. I think there's something going on with a setting in that brewing software. I also don't understand why your screenshot shows a pre-boil gravity about the same as the OG. The pre-boil gravity should be about OG gravity points*(post-boil volume)/(pre-boil volume). 49*(22.7/28.9)=38 (1.038). The Pre-Boil and Post-Boil volumes seem reasonable in the screenshot.

I'd plan for about 75% mash efficiency for a beer with this OG, but that's based off of a single batch sparge.

 

[Jes2xu]

I used ProMash and see that your grain weights & post boil volume result in a 60% mash efficiency for 1.049 OG. If your actual OG was 1.059 and you hit all your volumes, you actually got 72% mash efficiency. I think there's something going on with a setting in that brewing software. I also don't understand why your screenshot shows a pre-boil gravity about the same as the OG. The pre-boil gravity should be about OG gravity points*(post-boil volume)/(pre-boil volume). 49*(22.7/28.9)=38 (1.038). The Pre-Boil and Post-Boil volumes seem reasonable in the screenshot.



I'd plan for about 75% mash efficiency for a beer with this OG, but that's based off of a single batch sparge.

Thanks for the effort! So I foolishly forgot to adjust for more boil off (it was much higher than I expected.) after adjusting for that it gives me a efficiency of 77%

The pre boil stated there is the actual pre boil I got.

Gah it's so annoying! I'm begining to think that I cant trust anything this app says! But can't help thinking that it's me doing something stupid!


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[Jes2xu]

Anyway sorry!

Off topic I will move this somewhere else! Haha


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[gbx]

I bought some wy1275 a few months ago with the intent of brewing this but then things came up in my life. When I got around to brewing the yeast was 6 weeks old and I didn't have time for a starter so I scaled the recipe back to 1.035. Sometime during the mash I decided to switch up the hops to 100% First Gold. I did an "open" ferment in a loose lid bucket with hopes of top cropping and rebrewing a full strength Hobgoblin clone but life got in the way again. I had 2 mini 5L kegs and a 3 gallon corny that I split the batch up into and casked conditioned the 2 mini kegs (one with finings, one without) and force carbed the corny in hoping to do a 3 way side by side tasting (didn't happen either). I left the casks at 18C for 3 days to condition and then turned my keggerator to 10C for serving. I tapped the fined cask 3 days later. Despite coming out of the fermenter a hefe-like mess, it responded to the gelatin really well and was brilliantly clear (it was a ridiculously humid day and the glass kept fogging up). I tapped the unfined cask 2 weeks later and it was clear too. But I'm not sure I like this yeast. It didn't top crop very well and it isn't as malty as I like in a british yeast. I don't know when I'll get the chance to rebrew this as I have homegrown hops that will be ripe soon so the next beer will likely be the obligatory wet hopped ipa.

 

[adam01]

Neat;

What spout is that in your 5L keg ? I was using 5L kegs long ago, but got tired of trying to
get the bung in and out...

I've used 1275, and lately 1028. Do you like 1318 best ?

 

[gbx]

That is the new style spout they are putting on the minikegs. You have to push the button for it to pour. I like the old stye ones that just required turning as they made for easier cleaning. The kegs are kind of annoying but they are fun to make mini cask ales. The bungs don't come out with too much difficulty: pull the top tab out, with a pen punch out the inner piece of down into the keg and then just pull the bung out with a pair of pliers. 1gal mini kegs are the perfect amount for 1 one person.

I like the huge malty taste of wy1968 the best. wy1318 is second for taste but overall number 1 because it is so much easier to use: It top crops perfectly and can be repitched over and over again without increasing in attenuation and always dropping clear (last year I did 8 beers from a single smack pack). I haven't used wy1028. you like it?

 

[adam01]

I got a present today.


Straight from Britian.
Now to have a tasting with a few knowledgable folks.

Wish it could have been a mini keg version. But that's large in a suitcase.

 

[adam01]

Well, I am surprised.

The fresh bottle from Britain does taste like what we have in the states. So the sherry like
sweetness is not from improper aging.

Comparing my brew against this bottle, I noticed a very clean sweetness vs the homebrew that had a muddy set of tastes.

So I don't add the invert sugar, and don't do any special boiling that would give more carmelization. I wish I knew where the special sweetness in this brew comes from.

Hat tip to DSmith for the Simpsons Malts I tried with mine.

 

[Jes2xu]

I finaly got my clone and a bottle of the original together at the same time, and what do you know!?.......

Colour is prety close, bitterness is very close, malt profile is near identical.

My fresh one does have a slightly more lively hop aromer, and a touch more hop flavour. I actually prefer this, the earthy tones are nice!

I brewed it with us-05 though, so there is a lack of yeast charactoristics in my version.

But the only super noticeable diference is that dam sherry/port/prune flavour! I cant for the life of me work it out! I DID notice though after eating a single plain crisp that flavour was totally masked. I actually couldn't tell the two apart without it. I had no idea such a bland food could mask such a predominant flavour so fully!

 

[gbx]

But the only super noticeable diference is that dam sherry/port/prune flavour! I cant for the life of me work it out! I DID notice though after eating a single plain crisp that flavour was totally masked. I actually couldn't tell the two apart without it. I had no idea such a bland food could mask such a predominant flavour so fully!

What is the ABV of the bottles sold in the US? The hobgoblin sold in canada is 5.2% and it looks to be the same on the UK bottle judging by the posted pics. The recipe given in the podcast is for the 4.6% cask version. He mentioned using an invert syrup to pad out the batch size but it is so small a percentage on the cask version it isn't worth noting. I'm thinking they are using a lot more of it to bump up the gravity in the bottled version and its bringing the sherry/port/prune flavour (similar to the way a dark candi sugar brings some of those flavours in a belgian dark strong). Next time I brew this I'm going to split the batch doing half as per recipe and adding a dark invert syrup to the other half.

 

[adam01]

Jes2xu - welcome to the world of trying to reproduce Hobgoblin...

Gbx, I was starting to look at the invert sugar as well. Its the only ingredient not being added
that the brewer suggested. That and a few minor things (ph, strike water ratio, yeast amounts)

Bottle ABV: 5.2% - straight from the UK and US bottles.
Cask ABV: 4.6% - straight from Jeff Drew (head brewer)

I was thinking of adding a few % of invert sugar - If only I can get some lime to make it.
But what color/flavor of invert sugar. This page claims to be able to get various different flavors and colors

I estimate that we would have to add 1/2 pound invert sugar to get OG of 1.051 and FG of 1.011 (values of original brew.)

Jes2xu, GBX, DSmith, do you measure pH of your beers ? I'd love to know what you achieved. I measured the commercial beer at 3.64. My latest is at 4.1.

I was reading that the more yeast you pitch, the faster the ferment and the lower the final pH of the beer. It takes me more than 3 days to ferment and I use a 1.5L starter on a stir plate. To get 3 day ferments, like the brewer suggested, I'm going to need more yeast.

 

[gbx]

Jes2xu - welcome to the world of trying to reproduce Hobgoblin...

Gbx, I was starting to look at the invert sugar as well. Its the only ingredient not being added
that the brewer suggested. That and a few minor things (ph, strike water ratio, yeast amounts)

Bottle ABV: 5.2% - straight from the UK and US bottles.
Cask ABV: 4.6% - straight from Jeff Drew (head brewer)

I was thinking of adding a few % of invert sugar - If only I can get some lime to make it.
But what color/flavor of invert sugar. This page claims to be able to get various different flavors and colors

I estimate that we would have to add 1/2 pound invert sugar to get OG of 1.051 and FG of 1.011 (values of original brew.)

Jes2xu, GBX, DSmith, do you measure pH of your beers ? I'd love to know what you achieved. I measured the commercial beer at 3.64. My latest is at 4.1.

I was reading that the more yeast you pitch, the faster the ferment and the lower the final pH of the beer. It takes me more than 3 days to ferment and I use a 1.5L starter on a stir plate. To get 3 day ferments, like the brewer suggested, I'm going to need more yeast.

I got obsessed with water chemistry for a while-i read How to Brew and it convinced me that I couldn't brew all grain with my water (despite having brewed all grain already without messing with the water). I bought a pH meter and started measuring pH only to discover what I knew all along: our water is fine and the chapter on water chemistry in How to Brew is complete **** and should be torn out and burned. Here are my records from the first time I brewed this recipe with Vancouver tap water that is essentially RO water (I mashed in with just the base malt and added the specialty malt later to see the effect it had)..a batch sparge if you are wondering

Hobgoblin
TF MO 9lb
Baird's C75 .75lb
Baird's Chocolate 3.25oz
Mash stage Time Temperature Sample Temp Sample pH Brix
Strike Water 18L 0
1st 5min 67 25 5.7 8
1st 15min 67 25 5.7 9
CaCl Addition
1st 30min 67 30 5.6 12
Crystal+Chocolate Malt Addition
1st 45min 65 30 5.3 13

1st Runnings 15L 30 5.3 17
2nd Runnings 15L 30 5.5 4
Combined 29.5L 30 5.4 10.5

I didn't measure the final beer but 3.6 seems really low, almost sour, no?

this is the best instructions on making british invert syrup http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert