Can You Brew It recipe for Wychwood Hobgoblin

[jakegreen58]

Couple things: You could get centennial but not cascade?!?!?!? Centennial around here is about as rare as seeing bigfoot these days. ...and head over to the brew science forum to find countless threads of 5.2 stabilizer hate.

...and...

What is the ABV on the hobgobblin bottles you get in florida?
What did you use for malts?


...I just moved this weekend. Was thinking about the CYBI well's bombardier or something from the IPA book but I think this might be the first brew of the new house.

I used 10 lbs of Simpson's Golden Promise , 1 Lbs Crystal 80L, 0.5 Lbs Chocolate Malt and 1 lb of Cane Sugar. Not sure why now I used centennial instead of Cascade, but for hops replacements I had to use Less Styrian Goldings then the recipe called for and I had to use US fuggles instead of UK fuggles. I may have forgotten that I was out of Cascade and had to sub on the fly.

About the ABV on Hobgoblin, I am not sure. I have never looked.

 

[air805ronin]

I'm just going to throw in a couple of tidbits as a guy who's toured the Wychwood Brewery about 10 times. I didn't listen to the podcast yet, but I wanted to share some info on one of my favorite beers.

First off, is it possible his recipe is geared towards the draft hobgoblin? That can account for a few things.

A. There is a different in Alcohol content between draft and bottled Hobgoblin. They made the change due to legal issues in England. Draft is roughly 4.6% and the bottle runs at 5.2%. When you do the tour, they highlight this by pouring you samples of both so you can see the difference between the flavors. You can taste the difference is quite evident.

B. Draft Hobgoblin will carry a lot less of the oxidation issues, and is usually served fairly fresh so the hop flavors don't go anywhere. It tastes worlds apart from the flavor of bottles we get here in the U.S. See if there is somewhere nearby with hobgoblin on tap. I'm lucky enough to have a British pub downtown.

C. Its weird to see any sugar at all on the list. When you do the tour they show you the different kinds of malt that go into Hobgoblin and you get to taste them. They didn't highlight a use of any adjuncts at all, nor did I see any. Just sacks of malt. (disregard, its a make up to try to help with the difference between their commercial setup and a homebrew setup)

D. I don't know about hops, but do remember them adding hops at the start of the boil and at the end, and they get removed during the whirlpool separating the wort from the trub. I cannot remember if they add any hops during fermentation. They do for other beers but I'm not sure about Hobgoblin.

I got dragged on the tour a lot because my air force buddies couldn't find the brewery without help.

Edit: Also, you should be aware that they had open fermentation vessels. I think they are open air all the time.

 

[adam01]

Wow! Someone who has tasted the unoxidized version. So is there a lot of hop flavor like the CYBI version?
How sweet is it? I'm sure the bottles we have here are oxidized ( sherry taste) and you get none of that.

 

[air805ronin]

It should not be overtly hoppy. It should have a sweetness to it and an almost nutty flavor caused by the darker malts and the hops working in unison..

 

[adam01]

The CYBI version has a bright hop aroma. I was thinking of reducing the arms and flavor hops in the next batch to be more in balance with the malt.

 

[fishersfirst]

Hi folks,

I'm a brewer based in Aus but lived in the Uk for a number of years. I listened to the Podcast on BN with keen interest recently, as I drank both the bottled beer and draft versions quite frequently.

Here are my musings on the make-up of the recipe based on hearing the head brewer as well as my own experience of the flavour of the beer itself having drank it many times.

OG: 1.046 FG: 1.012
Abv: 4.6%
IBU'S : 26
Colour: 25-30 SRM
Mash 60mins at 67C (153F)

Grain bill:

Pale Uk ale malt : 89%
Crystal 80L (150EBC) : 8%
Chocolate 450L : 3%

The brewer mentioned less than 1% brewing sugar, but this was only due to them not being able to fit enough grains into their mashing vats which were at this point full to the brim

Hops:

Equal amounts of EKG and Fuggles added at 80C (176F) FWH approx 0.5oz of each based on a 5.5gal batch size
Styrian Golding 0.75 oz and Cascade 0.15 oz at 15 mins

I plan to do this with US-04 yeast in a few weeks time and will report back!

 

[fishersfirst]

Hi folks,

I'm a brewer based in Aus but lived in the Uk for a number of years. I listened to the Podcast on BN with keen interest recently, as I drank both the bottled beer and draft versions quite frequently.

Here are my musings on the make-up of the recipe based on hearing the head brewer as well as my own experience of the flavour of the beer itself having drank it many times.

OG: 1.046 FG: 1.012
Abv: 4.6%
IBU'S : 26
Colour: 25-30 SRM
Mash 60mins at 67C (153F)

Grain bill:

Pale Uk ale malt : 89%
Crystal 80L (150EBC) : 8%
Chocolate 450L : 3%

The brewer mentioned less than 1% brewing sugar, but this was only due to them not being able to fit enough grains into their mashing vats which were at this point full to the brim

Hops:

Equal amounts of EKG and Fuggles added at 80C (176F) FWH approx 0.5oz of each based on a 5.5gal batch size
Styrian Golding 0.75 oz and Cascade 0.15 oz at 15 mins

I plan to do this with US-04 yeast in a few weeks time and will report back!

Edit: I'm of the opinion that the perceived bitterness of the beer is actually above 30 IBU's, as opposed to the 26 IBU's stated by the brewer.
Again, this is just my perception.

 

[gbx]

Hi folks,

I'm a brewer based in Aus but lived in the Uk for a number of years. I listened to the Podcast on BN with keen interest recently, as I drank both the bottled beer and draft versions quite frequently.

Here are my musings on the make-up of the recipe based on hearing the head brewer as well as my own experience of the flavour of the beer itself having drank it many times.

OG: 1.046 FG: 1.012
Abv: 4.6%
IBU'S : 26
Colour: 25-30 SRM
Mash 60mins at 67C (153F)

Grain bill:

Pale Uk ale malt : 89%
Crystal 80L (150EBC) : 8%
Chocolate 450L : 3%

The brewer mentioned less than 1% brewing sugar, but this was only due to them not being able to fit enough grains into their mashing vats which were at this point full to the brim

Hops:

Equal amounts of EKG and Fuggles added at 80C (176F) FWH approx 0.5oz of each based on a 5.5gal batch size
Styrian Golding 0.75 oz and Cascade 0.15 oz at 15 mins

I plan to do this with US-04 yeast in a few weeks time and will report back!

You are scaling back the styrian based off of the interview or your own experience with the cask brew? Not judging, just wondering. Maybe its just me but I kinda feel jamil just isn't into the show like he used to be and it wouldn't surprise me if his recipe formulation was in error. I don't really agree with the assumption that a 15min addition = a whirlpool addition. If the goal is to clone something, why not just do a whirlpool addition?

...but I don't think Jamils expertise is in british brewing anyways - ie discussion about partigyle on the fuller's show and invert sugar discussion on the meantime and well's shows

 

[fishersfirst]

You are scaling back the styrian based off of the interview or your own experience with the cask brew? Not judging, just wondering. Maybe its just me but I kinda feel jamil just isn't into the show like he used to be and it wouldn't surprise me if his recipe formulation was in error. I don't really agree with the assumption that a 15min addition = a whirlpool addition. If the goal is to clone something, why not just do a whirlpool addition?

...but I don't think Jamils expertise is in british brewing anyways - ie discussion about partigyle on the fuller's show and invert sugar discussion on the meantime and well's shows

Having not listened to Jamil's show before, I can't comment.

About the late addition of Styrian Golding, I'm not that sure that the addition of 'a lot' of hops at flameout (whirlpool) is accurate/ perhaps misleading.
Obviously I'm not the brewer or an expert, but the brewer described adding quite a lot of the Styrian and Cascade in the whirlpool.
That said, he also described the OG of 1.046 as 'nice and high'
By home brewing terms, we wouldn't normally call that high, this makes me wonder if the 'lot' of late hops is actually a that high.

English ales do not traditionally add as much late hops as American.
The amount of aroma you're getting in an actual Hobgoblin is IMHO not all that noticeable by American standards, it's a lot more subtle.

If the late addition is indeed at flameout, I'd expect no more than an ounce based on a 5 gal brew. (Styrian)

This is just my opinion, like I said, I'll brew it and see how I think it compares.

 

[adam01]

The amount of aroma you're getting in an actual Hobgoblin is IMHO not all that noticeable by American standards,

Using the 35g / 8g whirlpool addition of styrian/cascade at 15mins will give you a very noticably bright aroma (I added them at flameout, for 15 mins. )

So I wonder what a more moderate (balanced) addition should be ? 50% 70% ? Or add them during boiling ?

 

[gbx]

alright...i'm just trying a gravity sample of sarah hughes ruby dark mild (OG 1.055, 75% Golden Promise, 25% Baird's C70-80....9lbs GP, 3lbs crystal!!!!) that I brewed on new years day. Still a lot of diacetyl but it tastes way closer to the bottles of hobgoblin we get here than the clone brew. I think the key might be increasing the crystal malt. I'm gonna go up to a 1.5 lbs next time and see what it does.

 

[adam01]

Well, its time to brew this again. Has anyone else done it recently ?

I'm going to scale back the final addition of hops - there was too much aroma and
hop flavor in the beer. But how much to scale it back - 1/2? 1/4 ?

 

[DSmith]

I'm just polishing off a store bought version and some things I noticed:

The bottle says the ABV is 5.2. I put a drop on the refractometer and it reads 6brix. I think the OG would have to be around 1.048 and an FG of 1.009 to get that reading with 5.2%ABV. It doesn't taste that dry. I think I remember the brewer saying the alcohol was 4.3% and it had a FG in the 1.012 range? That is probably the cask version. What is the ABV on the bottles people get in the US?

Reviving an old post.

I repeated this with a US imported Hobgoblin and got 6.6% Brix on a calibrated refractometer. The bottle doesn't list ABV, but assuming it's 5.2% per the brewery website, the OG = 1.051 abd FG = 1.011. I'm sure there's some error involved with measuring this way, but the FG is in the range stated in the interview and OG is about 5 gravity points higher than the cask version.

 

[DSmith]

English color units are x2 North American numbers, so 75L is pretty much 150 EBC.

Continuing to reserecting this thread...finally getting to brew a Hobgoblin based on a mix of Orfy's Hobgoblin II recipe, the CYBI recipe & the interview with the brewer on the CYBI Hobgoblin show.

The brewer on the CYBI show stated 150 crystal malt (EBC, mentioned later in the interview). That's 60 Lovibond malt, Simpson's (Medium) Crystal Malt (http://www.simpsonsmalt.co.uk/media/5935/product_range_uk_web.pdf). The 80L crystal malt might have been an interpurtation error with SRM & Lovibond (Lovibond = EBC x 0,375 + 0,56).

Here is the recipe I'm brewing this weekend:
Batch Size (Gal): 6.0
Total Grain (Lbs): 11.11
Anticipated Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.043
Anticipated OG: 1.052
Anticipated SRM: 16
Anticipated IBU: 20 Tinseth (1.0 Concentration Factor, 0.7 factor applied for FWH)
Mash Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes
Est Final Gravity: 1.011
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.2 %

Amount Item Type % or IBU
10.0 lb Crisp Maris Otter (90% of grainbill)
0.889 lb Simpson’s Medium Crystal Malt, 60L (8% of grainbill)
0.222 lb Simpson’s Chocolate Malt (2% of grainbill)

15 g Styrian Goldings (pellet, 5.0 %, FWH)
15 g Fuggles (pellet, 4.5 %, FWH)
15 g Styrian Goldings (pellet, 5.0 %, 30 min)
15 g Fuggles (pellet, 4.5 %, 30 min)
15 g Styrian Goldings (pellet, 5.0 %, 0 min)
15 g Fuggles (pellet, 4.5 %, 0 min)

Mash at 153F for 90 min, 1 qt/lb
Wyeast 1028 London Ale
Pitch at 60F, natural rise to 68F, temperature controlled at 68F
Carbonate to 2.2 vol CO2

 

[Kuhndog]

Subscribed - let us know how this one turns out....very interested in doing this one.

 

[Bithead]

I'd like to hear also. I've made several attempts at this using Orfy's various recipes. No success yet. Time for another try.

 

[DSmith]

I brewed the recipe on post #54. Mash pH at room temp was 5.35, OG was 1.054 instead of 1.052, cooled to 61F and pitched in the yeast from a starter. I think I'll hold it at 66F and finish with a raise to 68F/70F at the end of fermentation.

The shop <1 mile from my house got all the Wychwood beers a few months ago and that's when I became aware of this ale and the different homebrew recipes. Bitters have been a big focus of my brewing and I'll compare what I brewed to the bottled Hobgoblin.

 

[gbx]

This thread just inspired me to pour a pint of my dark ruby mild (9# golden promise, 3# bairds C75) that I brewed on new years day. It now has a similar "english malt" character that the bottled hobgoblin has. Next time I rebrew this one I'm going to use the CYBI recipe but double the crystal malt. I'm going to stick with the first wort fuggles and goldings and whirlpool styrians and cascade as that is what the brewer said (and it tastes awesome) ...and I'm definitely going to save a few bottles to try at 6months and see if they have aged into "clones"

 

[Kuhndog]

The brewer on the CYBI show stated 150 crystal malt (EBC, mentioned later in the interview). That's 60 Lovibond malt, Simpson's (Medium) Crystal Malt (http://www.simpsonsmalt.co.uk/media/5935/product_range_uk_web.pdf). The 80L crystal malt might have been an interpurtation error with SRM & Lovibond (Lovibond = EBC x 0,375 + 0,56).

That's interesting that you say that because the CYBI part had them using 360grams of 75-80 English Crystal. It was the episode in which they interviewed the head brewer at Wychwood...who did say it was 150 EBC. Some places say SRM is half of EBC...others say something different. I hope that it's in the 60L like you list above only because I really like 60L...not so much 80+ (too raisiny for my taste).

I do agree with you - I think it's 60L because the Head Brewer at Wychwood says they use Simpsons for the colored malts....and the only thing Simpsons has in the 150 range is their regular "Crystal" which is 50-60L...which is nice caramel malt...literally the sweet spot.

 

[DSmith]

That's interesting that you say that because the CYBI part had them using 360grams of 75-80 English Crystal. It was the episode in which they interviewed the head brewer at Wychwood...who did say it was 150 EBC. Some places say SRM is half of EBC...others say something different. I hope that it's in the 60L like you list above only because I really like 60L...not so much 80+ (too raisiny for my taste).

I do agree with you - I think it's 60L because the Head Brewer at Wychwood says they use Simpsons for the colored malts....and the only thing Simpsons has in the 150 range is their regular "Crystal" which is 50-60L...which is nice caramel malt...literally the sweet spot.

SRM is half EBC. Lovibond is not, I listed the formula and checked by converting Simpson's dual unit malt chart in the Simpson's link from EBC to Lovibond. All the Simpson's crystal malts are fantastic, it seems like this recipe should be in the 60L range per the CYBI interview.

Here's an IPA with Simpson's 60L and a English Pale ale with 80L as the only color malts in the recipes as 5% of the grainbill (pics below). I substitute them in when appropiate to replace American (Briess) crystal malts. As you stated, the 80L version is much more raisiny. The 60L is more sugary.

That CYBI interview with the brewer is confusing by:
1. He stated the color of the chocolate malt (from simpson's) as 1200EBC. That's the same as Simpson's Black Malt & Roasted Barley. I think the Simpson't chocolate malt is correct, instead of matching the ingredient by the color stated on the interview.

2. Cascade in the whirlpool is consistent with the website info for King Goblin. It's possible the website information for Hobgoblin is not complete. If you look at King Goblin, they omit the base malt from the website info, but include it in Hobgoblin... Hobgoblin is also descibed as "slight citrus", so Cascade may be an unlisted ingredient. I didn't think the commercial version was defined by the hops, definitely not very bitter, so I thought it would be more interesting comparing Orfy's Hobgoblin II hopping to the commerical beer than the CYBI hopping and adjust from there.

 

[DSmith]

I brewed the recipe on post #54. Mash pH at room temp was 5.35, OG was 1.054 instead of 1.052, cooled to 61F and pitched in the yeast from a starter. I think I'll hold it at 66F and finish with a raise to 68F/70F at the end of fermentation.

Fermentation temperature and gravity reading (estimated by refractometer from a small sample) graph added. Aeration was with a drill/paddles, yeast pitch per Mr. Malty. No diacetyl, sample too small and early to determine anything else.

Edit: Updated graph

 

[Kuhndog]

How is it doing or tasting thus far?

 

[DSmith]

How is it doing or tasting thus far?

I updated the graph in post #61. The primary sat at basement temperature for about 5 days after the controlled temperature period during fermentation, no significant change in gravity (%Brix, gravity estimated by refractometer & conversion formula).

EDITED

I transfered to a secondary, hydrometer reading of 1.013. The sample I got was from the bottom of the carboy and pretty cloudy. I suspect the color is lighter than the commercial version. The interview stated 1200 EBC malt, consistent with Simpson's Black Malt... I emailed the brewery to see if they would clarify the dark malt and hops stated on the CYBI interview. If they respond, I'll post that here.

 

[DaaveOfSpades]

Hi,

I've only ever made Beer from kits before thought I'd give this a whirl, however I'm not sure what British Crystal is or why to buy it?

Kind Regards,

Chris

 

[MadCnty]

I really like the original, so must give this shot some time...

 

[Kuhndog]

Hi,

I've only ever made Beer from kits before thought I'd give this a whirl, however I'm not sure what British Crystal is or why to buy it?

Kind Regards,

Chris

British Crystal is the equivalent to "caramel" malt over here in the US. There is a difference though in what it's made from. Briess and other maltsters in North America use 6 row barley to make their caramel malt....over in the UK - they use two row barley. For my own palette, there is more sweetness and more complex flavor in the British crystal compared to North American caramel malts. But if you want to make more authentic hobgoblin - you'll have to use British Crystal because I can guarantee, Wychwood is NOT using malts from North America.

One other thing - make sure you are getting the right crystal when comparing Lovibond. Some of the online retailers or even homebrew shops might list the malt in EBC - which is a lot higher than the normal Lovibond scale. For instance a British Medium Crystal would be 130-160 EBC or 50-60 Lovibond. Just keep that in mind. I know someone who looked at a Munton's bag of grain thinking he was buying Extra Dark Crystal but it was Medium Dark Crystal because the labeling said 160....but it is in EBC....so it really was Medium Crystal with a Lovibond of about 60 or so.

 

[DSmith]

I updated the graph in post #61. The primary sat at basement temperature for about 5 days after the controlled temperature period during fermentation, no significant change in gravity (%Brix, gravity estimated by refractometer & conversion formula).

EDITED

I transfered to a secondary, hydrometer reading of 1.013. The sample I got was from the bottom of the carboy and pretty cloudy. I suspect the color is lighter than the commercial version. The interview stated 1200 EBC malt, consistent with Simpson's Black Malt... I emailed the brewery to see if they would clarify the dark malt and hops stated on the CYBI interview. If they respond, I'll post that here.

I never got a response from the brewery.

I pulled a sample last night from the secondary to replace the small volume of gelatin/water solution added for clearing chill haze I get with Maris Otter. The beer is cold crashed for a few more days and then will be bottled. The sample tasted excellent. I'm looking forward to a comparison.

 

[DSmith]

Here's a picture of the color from leftovers at bottling. OG = 1.055, FG = 1.012, 5.7% ABV. I'll save any tasting notes for a future comparison to the bottled Hobgoblin. But, the beer is very malty with little roasted malt character.

 

[DSmith]

A Wychwood head brewer responded to my email quesions. Here is the response:

"Thanks for your enquiry. I can confirm that the hops in Hobgoblin are Fuggles/Golding added to the Copper and Styrian/Cascade to the whirlpool for some late hop zesty character. You are correct the colour of Chocolate malt is 1000 on Simpsons specification, but this can vary from batch to batch, so we adjust our malt grist to ensure the colour remains consistent in the beer."

I need to rebrew and adjust the hopping to be more in-line with the CYBI recipe. The crystal malt should still be Simpson's 150EBC (60L).

Pic added after 1 week carbonating. Adding a small amount of fresh yeast at bottling results in good carbonation within 10 days, much better with extra time.

 

[adam01]

Where did you gets the simpsons malts ? I can't seem to find any place that has the simpsons crystal. My LHBS has Muntons Chocolate, and Hugh Baird and Pauls medium crystal. But no simpsons.

 

[DSmith]

Midwest has Simpson's crystal 60l, 80l, 160l & chocolate malts.

 

[adam01]

Okay. They don't mention Simpsons as the supplier of the Chocolate - only as "English Chocolate".

We'll be waiting to read the side by side taste comparison with the original.

THanks.

 

[DSmith]

It is Simpson's chocolate at Midwest. Read the bin at the store and brewed with it yesterday.

They have Briess chocolate too.

 

[adam01]

Okay, brewing tomorrow.
Screwed up on the base malt and used Muntons Marris Otter. Next time will use Pauls Best Mild Ale. I think the marris gives me the slightly grainy flavor.

I'm going to try the London Ale Wy1028 strain. I previously used the Thames 1275 strain.

 

[gbx]

Okay, brewing tomorrow.
Screwed up on the base malt and used Muntons Marris Otter. Next time will use Pauls Best Mild Ale. I think the marris gives me the slightly grainy flavor.

I'm going to try the London Ale Wy1028 strain. I previously used the Thames 1275 strain.

Any reason for going with Paul's Mild? Any beer I've tasted with it has had a toastiness I do not get from Hobgoblin.

 

[DSmith]

Okay, brewing tomorrow.
Screwed up on the base malt and used Muntons Marris Otter. Next time will use Pauls Best Mild Ale. I think the marris gives me the slightly grainy flavor.

I'm going to try the London Ale Wy1028 strain. I previously used the Thames 1275 strain.

What recipe did you brew? I need to do the comparison still, but the one I post in Post#54 has turned out to be a phenominal beer whether it's a clone or not.

 

[adam01]

Largely the post of 54, but for the hops I didn't use the large dose of aroma (whirlpool) hops at the end. I did that before and the hop brightness was out of balance with the rest of the
beer. So I dropped it to 12 Sty / 3 Cascage for 15mins after flameout.

Its fermeting now, a little cool at 62, but warming still.

Since I don't have Simpsons malts locally, I used:
Muntons Maris
Pauls Crystal 60
Belgian Choc (they were our of Muntons Choc) 350L

Wyeast London 1028.

 

[DSmith]

I compared the recipe brewed in Post #54 to bottled Hobgoblin and it is not a clone. I want to revise the recipe and brew again based on these notes:

1. Reduce the % of chocoloate malt, add that percentage to the Crystal malt
2. I caught that the brewer on the CYBI interview stated a Spring variety pale malt. I'll try Golden Promise instead of Maris Otter.
3. Mash a few degrees higher with the same yeast for less fermentability
4. Hop per the CYBI interview and email confirmation from the brewery (FWH = 50%/50% mix of UK Goldings/Fuggles, Whirlpool = 80% Styrian Goldings/20% Cascade)
5. Calculate bittering hops for 25 IBU Tinseth (the recipe in Post #54 was for 20 IBU Tinseth and had less bitterness than the commercial beer)
6. Carbonate to 2.0 vol CO2 (2.2 vol CO2 is too much and needed to be swirled to decrease the carbonation bite)

 

[dyqik]

A couple of notes from this former resident of Oxford, about 20 miles from the Wychwood and Brakspear brewery...

Firstly, as stated above, there's a big difference between the cask and bottled versions. Some of this is down to the taxation rules in the UK that increase the tax percentage on beers above 4.7%, and some is because cask beers served at cellar temperature with a day or two's worth of oxidation in the cask taste a lot maltier and stronger than beer poured from a freshly opened bottle at fridge temperature.

Secondly, Brakspear yeast is quite possibly the same the as Wychwood yeast now, since they are both brewed on the same site.

 

[DSmith]

A couple of notes from this former resident of Oxford, about 20 miles from the Wychwood and Brakspear brewery...

Firstly, as stated above, there's a big difference between the cask and bottled versions. Some of this is down to the taxation rules in the UK that increase the tax percentage on beers above 4.7%, and some is because cask beers served at cellar temperature with a day or two's worth of oxidation in the cask taste a lot maltier and stronger than beer poured from a freshly opened bottle at fridge temperature.

Secondly, Brakspear yeast is quite possibly the same the as Wychwood yeast now, since they are both brewed on the same site.

I'm trying to copy the bottled version and am aiming for about 1.052 OG. This seems to be in line with a hydrometer/refractometer sample of the commercial beer, near 5.5% ABV.

My use of Wyeast 1028 and combination of mash temperature definitely lead to the over attenuation. The choice is to use the familiar yeast again and raise the mash temperature or try something new. I had figured to change the yeast last if the recipe gets closer to the bottled beer.