calculating pH when using malt extracts?

[BrewnWKopperKat]

But at the same time, If you only boil the dme wort long enough to get a hot break and use finings (10-15m) would you even still see the ph drop?

A while back, when I was playing with variations on "Hop Sampler", I brewed a couple of batches where I added the DME at flame-on (water was around 65F). I didn't measure pH at that point in time.

Different brands of DME, different visual results in the 150F-200F range.

With one brand of DME, I saw what looks like "hot break" (similar to what I see with by BIAB batches). With the other, I didn't.

In a different batch, I added hops at 160F (before reaching a boil) - the "hot break" didn't appear this time.

I didn't measure pH at that point in time. I may revisit these batches (in a month or two) along with a pH meter to reconfirm what I'm seeing.

 

[ncbrewer]

Based on Briess saying so. And based on my experience. A true hot break results in lots of flakes of break material (the "egg drop soup") rolling in the boil. Do you see that in your DME boils? I sure don't.

That's interesting. I get hot break using LME. I assumed DME was the same, but I haven't used DME in a long time and don't remember.

 

[SanPancho]

the slides dont mention anything about boiling. only that they use typical brewery equipment to make wort. wort appears in the mash tun, so nothing to state here that the wort then goes into a kettle.

they note they use a "gentle" process- vacuum evap at low temps, as low as 95F. so entirely different than the process that was described to me. pretty interesting. but no indication at all this ever sees a temperature higher than what is needed for the mash.

as they never clearly state that the they boil, i'm gonna go ahead and call that a fib unless proven otherwise. i dont doubt they have some way of removing some of the stuff that makes up the break, but they clearly dont get all of it. i have clean soft water so there's nothing else that would precip and cause the break i'm seeing.

unless somebody has audio of this presentation it seems like there is zero reason to believe (from the slide deck) it is boiled before it gets into your kettle.

 

[VikeMan]

the slides dont mention anything about boiling. only that they use typical brewery equipment to make wort. wort appears in the mash tun, so nothing to state here that the wort then goes into a kettle.

they note they use a "gentle" process- vacuum evap at low temps, as low as 95F. so entirely different than the process that was described to me. pretty interesting. but no indication at all this ever sees a temperature higher than what is needed for the mash.

as they never clearly state that the they boil, i'm gonna go ahead and call that a fib unless proven otherwise. i dont doubt they have some way of removing some of the stuff that makes up the break, but they clearly dont get all of it. i have clean soft water so there's nothing else that would precip and cause the break i'm seeing.

unless somebody has audio of this presentation it seems like there is zero reason to believe it is boiled before it gets into your kettle.

See the quoted text in the post linked below. The linked Briess page apparently no longer exists...you'll get a redirect. But unless you think Briess was outright lying, or that @ACbrewer was lying, Briess is boiling the wort.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/is-dme-pre-boiled.395630/#post-4980291

 

[SanPancho]

interesting. so if we understand the process to be essentially a full brew (sans hops) before they do the evap then what is seen in a dme boil is essentially what doesnt precip in their boil process. i wonder if they use finings of any sort or just go straight from whirlpool to evap. so what comes out in the kettle is (i'm assuming) the portion of the break that wont settle until it comes to room temp. (or without fining agents) because from what this process describes the wort is cooled, but never to a temperature at room temp or typical "pitch" temps.

and if they do a full boil, then the ph drop seen in the kettle should already be "in" the extract. so assuming its roughly 5.4 for "ideal mash", then a guess would be 5.2 to 5.3 if the extract was rehydrated with RO/distilled.

anybody making a starter soon that can check the ph oughta be able to give us an answer here. although we are still basing off an assumption that the mash ph is at 5.4

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

In this document Narziss recommends mashing at 5.5 pH and then biological acid adjusting to 5.1 pH during the boil.

https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1984.tb04288.x

 

[SanPancho]

that's another good point, i was assuming they dont treat the boil ph. although without hops or the intention of this being a final product, i'd guess they're not adjusting kettle ph.

no idea this was gonna become a bit of a rabbit hole of extract info when i asked if anyone knew the ph. just figured that at some point somebody with a ph meter might have been curious to know, had tested their wort or a starter and could give us an answer.

 

[VikeMan]

I also remember reading, a long time ago, in the notes for an old version of Bru'n Water, that rehyrdrated DME takes a really long time, like hours, for its pH to stabilize. Perhaps mabrungard has some recollection (or current knowledge) of this.

Edit: I'm thinking now that this may be where I read that:
https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/tag/ph-with-dme/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

That's interesting. I get hot break using LME. I assumed DME was the same

Briess LME? In #31, I saw what looked like hot break with Briess DME, but not with the other brand.

 

[cire]

Briess DME has already had the hot break produced and removed.

From # 4 by Muntons in their Q and A, it would seem that proteins, and hence hot break, is removed in present production processes.

 

[ncbrewer]

Briess LME? In #31, I saw what looked like hot break with Briess DME, but not with the other brand.

No - I'm using extract from Williams Brewing.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

No - I'm using extract from ...

Thanks. There's more that could be said, but this branch of the topic is probably "more appropriate" in a different forum. Might be interesting to propose some one gallon experiments (maybe over in "one gallon brewers unite") and have people report back the results over the course of six months or a year.

 

[day_trippr]

I've used Briess and Muntons DME forever for starters and as best as memory serves have never seen significant break material, period.
Some tiny amount of solid sediment at the bottom of the pot, yes, but I'm usually cooking up 500 gram 5 liter starters so the tiny collection of debris isn't out of order imo...

Cheers!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

.... never seen significant break material, period.

New paragraph .

Joking aside, this reply isn't intended to be about the amount of hot break. The observation is that there appears to be hot break.

Brewing with Extract: Tips from the Pros - Brew Your Own (Dec 2020 issue): " ... to get additional hot break ...".

edit: added What are these grey flakes in my flask?