BrunDog 50A eRig - no HLT for me!

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Brundog, your setup looks great. Very nice workmanship and well thought out at every turn.

I just got to looking through this thread and it makes me want to take my gear and leave it out by the curb. :)
 
Thanks guys. Did a wit today and some things went smoothly, and others notsomuch. Most things are addressable. The biggest issue was my #2 Chugger pump decoupling for some reason. I had to keep starting and stopping it to get it to link. I am going to take the head apart and see what's going on if I can tell.
 
What do you mean by decoupling?

Edit: So a googled decoupling and think I understand what you're referring to. I have not heard of decoupling and think I have some more reading to do. I thought when that happened to me that the pump was cavitating, ie running dry. Is this basically the same thing just a different term?

I have noticed that since I hard plumbed out my setup that I have to create back pressure on my pump by partially closing the output valve on my pump. If not the pump seems to run dry and I have to shut it down and then restart. I just assumed that the pump's output was greater than the fluid input to the pump, if the pump is allowed to run unrestricted.
 
I have noticed that since I hard plumbed out my setup that I have to create back pressure on my pump by partially closing the output valve on my pump. If not the pump seems to run dry and I have to shut it down and then restart. I just assumed that the pump's output was greater than the fluid input to the pump, if the pump is allowed to run unrestricted.

Most likely what's happening is that at the higher flow rates you don't have enough NPSHa (a = available). I attached an example pump curve below.

See that little line at the bottom of the graph? Look at what it does at higher flow rates. When the pump runs out on its curve the NPSHr (r = required) also increase rapidly. So when you throttle the discharge you're forcing the pump back on its curve, to the left, and correspondingly decreasing the amount of NPSH it needs to operate.

If the available NPSH isn't greater than the required NPSH of the pump, then you'll get cavitation.

Hope this helps. If you want more info on how to calculate NPSHa, I'd check out Engineering Toolbox.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/npsh-net-positive-suction-head-d_634.html
 
I appreciate the feedback guys, but I think it was magnetic decoupling of the impeller. You know these are magnetically coupled for safety and for sanitation.

The pump was running, but no flow was occurring. I would stop power, and the pump motor would slowly spool down, and when approaching its stopped rotation would "click in" or engage and the liquid would start flowing. I could then power up and liquid would flow again for a few seconds, then the motor speed would rapidly increase and the flow would stop. Stopping it again would allow it to engage. Cavitation is different - it wouldn't click in and out.

I think the impeller may have gotten jammed. After a bunch of cycles it started working again but then during fermenter transfer its volume slowed down but was not decoupling.
 
Whoops, sorry wasn't meaning to address your issue but was instead talking to jcc. Completely agree, in your situation mag drive was decoupling.
 
Oh, sorry.... you did quote him and my narcissistic self overlooked that!

Good info nonetheless. I have seen bubbles come out of the output for near boiling wort when none were going in... so this definitely explains that!

-BD
 
I think the impeller may have gotten jammed. After a bunch of cycles it started working again but then during fermenter transfer its volume slowed down but was not decoupling.


Yes I did know the pump heads are magnetic driven. Which is great for our use being able to control the output flow rate by restricting with a ball valve and not having to worry about burning up the pump. I just assumed that if I restricted the pump's output 100% with a closed ball valve it would just allow the motor to spin and the pump head to stop turning. (Magnetic drive/acting as a clutch) Then once the output valve was opened enough to allow flow the pump head would begin to spin because the resistance/back pressure could be overcome by the pump head.

I am at a loss understanding what will cause pump decoupling? Faulty pump head? Impeller jammed? Restricting output flow too much?? I'm just trying to learn more for my knowledge and understanding.
 
Well, I just opened up the pump head. Everything looked OK but there were a couple pieces of orange peel clogging the intake (haven't installed a screen with the new bottom drain). These were from the wit yesterday.

So I am really not sure what caused the decoupling. Maybe there was something caught in the impeller, because after I had cycled power a bunch of times it seemed to take longer and longer to decouple until it didn't.
 
There's a couple of other things that will make these pumps decouple like overheating and miss-aligning or putting a big gap between the head and magnet. But neither seems to be a problem for you, probably just the orange peel.

Great looking system!
 
Thanks for the feedback. I don't think the decoupling was from the orange peel, but restricted flow later on (cleaning) was.

When you say overheating, I would agree that's possible and the decoupling did in fact occur when starting my whirlpool recirculation. But what doesn't jive is that the pump was not on before that and the wort is boiling. The pump is made to handle liquid at boil temp, so this shouldn't be it. It was mounted properly so dunno if it is an alignment issue.

Anyway, if it happens again, I will call Chugger and seek a remedy/replacement.
 
These pumps are rated for boiling liquid, but with bad ventilation they will often decouple before the over temp switch pops. Your setup looks like there should be plenty of ventilation for them so I would rule that out, unless you have some strange air circulation going on.

Could always be a bad magnet. I've had good experience with chugger customer service, even though my pump broke because of my own stupidity. If it happens again send them an email, they will help troubleshoot.
 
Thanks for the tips. Like you stated there is no ventilation issue though it was warm this weekend. Not warmer than I have brewed with it before, and like I said it wasn't running, so no heat buildup from the motor.
 
I hope you get it worked out, maybe you should give Chugger a call and see if they can narrow it down for you. Who knows they may just send you a new part!

John
 
I had an issue with a chugger where the magnet was hitting the pump head. I was able to take the pump head off and loosen the set screw to move the magnet back a bit to stop the rubbing.

Your problem might be that the magnet is too far away from the pump head and needs to be moved closer to the pump head to prevent decoupling.
 
Oh, wow. That's great information. No doubt the quality control of these Chinese made pumps is not that high. This same pump had a leak the day I first used it (brand new). I got a replacement gasket which solved the problem.

I will call Chugger and ask what the position should be, if it's user settable. Thanks crane!
 
First off, great build man. This thing is incredible. I have been trying to figure out how to run my RIMS tube on 120V during mashing and 240V during sparging with the BCS for some time now. Your solution with the relay seems like a great solution. Can you tell me what relay you used to take care of this? I can't seem to find anything on the internets...
 
Thanks. I have some work to do to get it where I want, but I have learned a lot and I am making progress.

I also had a problem finding a relay and in truth, have not found the right one quite yet. I wanted an enclosed DIN rail mount relay and did not find one easily. You need a power relay that is DT (dual throw), can handle 30A, and has a 120VAC coil voltage. Relays like this: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/T92P11A22-120/PB492-ND/365926 have a 30A NO rating and a 3A NC rating. I wasn't initially sure why there was such a NO/NC difference (if it was real or just a rating thing), but I didn't want to be a tester.

So I selected this relay: http://www.alliedelec.com/schneider-electric-magnecraft-300xbxc4-120a/70184975/

As it turned out this relay wasn't perfect either. I learned this the hard way, because despite the 30A rating, it probably should have a lower NC rating like the relays above because it will not successfully disconnect the load when it is running in sparge mode. So, if I release the relay when applying 240V (sparge mode) and the SSR is on, it will trip the breaker supplying it. I believe an arc is forming in the air gap between the NO, common, and NC contacts. Since the NC contact is tied to neutral, there is an electrical pathway there. So, my work around has been to always make sure the output to the SSR is off before turning the output for the relay off. This is easy enough to do in programming, so it has not been an issue.

I may look for a decent replacement relay someday (not a priority right now), or I may wire the other pole in parallel to reduce the current in half through each pole, as this may resolve the problem.

BTW I have been intermittently successful using PID on the BCS for sparge water heating on the fly. Sometimes it dials in and other times it is unstable. I am going to test a new tuning method but will likely just go to a duty cycle, since the flow is very consistent, and the output temp is not super critical. It sucks that the BCS doesn't have autotuning, and I am convinced it is also not calculating or applying output periods correctly.
 
It sucks that the BCS doesn't have autotuning, and I am convinced it is also not calculating or applying output periods correctly.

I agree that not having autotuning is a pain. I previously used an arduino to autotune and then copied the coefficients over to the BCS. That worked as a decent starting point, but still needed further tweaking.

Have you tried using the PID tuner that is available from the utilities Web page? I found this extremely useful when tuning as it will show you the current outputs of all 3 gain stages along with the resulting duty cycle. It seemed to always correctly calculate the output based off of the error input in my experience. If it is actually miscalculating the output it will tell you part of the algorithm is wrong. In the end it seemed best to set the min integral to 0 and the max to something that is about 50 to 100% higher than the integral value it settles to during steady state. This along with setting the proportional gain high enough to negate the max integral when you are above the setpoint resulted in very little overshoot (0.5F). Take this as a grain of salt as I was not tuning a RIMS tube but rather my HLT filled with 12 gallons of water.
 
Thanks crane. I have not tried the tuner as it was not working often with the beta. Using a fast responding system I have the parameters set very tight: output period 1 sec and sample period .1 sec. According to ECC, the temps are read that fast. However, I do not believe that the output successfully works with that small an output period. For example, a calculated 10% output period would be an output of .1 seconds, but I never see the output pulse this fast.

I will give the tuner a try. Ideally, I would have the output set at a certain duty cycle, then have it slightly adjusted as needed to increase or decrease the output temp. Because the inflow rate and temp are consistent, and because the sparge water temp is not super critical, using duty alone would really be enough.
 
My eyes! I know what a very short output pulse looks like, and I never see it. I suppose it's possible the LED tied to the element has a certain on delay, but I would say it never lights for shorter than a third of a second.

I could hook up a scope or other logger to the input of the SSR but I am confident with my experience.
 
4. The RIMS element runs at 240V (5500W) for heating strike water (via recirculation) and sparge water (via one pass). However, I did not want to have the element run that power for mash recirculation. I felt this was too much heat and could cause scorching even if correctly pulsed to a very low duty cycle. So I implemented a relay to switch the element’s voltage between 240 and 120VAC. At 120V, the element only generates about 1400W. Therefore the relay provides 240V at first for strike water heating, then is switched to 120V for mashing, then is switched to 240V again for sparge water heating. BTW, since the BCS uses different PID parameters for each output, I am using two outputs, which then power the same SSR. Finding a DIN rail mounted relay to handle 30A was a little tricky, and I am still not thrilled with the one I have (relay is circled in wiring construction shot here).


I had been thinking of doing this exact same thing!
How does the on demand hot strike and sparge water work out for you? What %duty cycle do you typically use and what temperature delta do you usually get in one pass?

Also, I use that same flow meter for my RIMS tube, I've programmed hard limits in my controller to shut the process down at >172F for fear of damaging it at it's 80C max temperature rating (also, my mlt as plastic). Do you have any checks to prevent passing too hot liquid through the meter? Or do you ever even come close? I ask because for me at 120v it doesn't heat up fast enough for me to worry about me or the controls not catching it overheating, at 240v I wouldn't know...

Nice setup btw! :mug:
 
Keep in mind most SSRs have a min pulse threshold in the hundreds of milliseconds. The datasheet for the ones I use state 350ms. So a pulse of 100ms is too short to turn on the output. This correlates with your observations of only seeing the Led light if the pulse is more than 1/3 of a second.
 
I had been thinking of doing this exact same thing!
How does the on demand hot strike and sparge water work out for you? What %duty cycle do you typically use and what temperature delta do you usually get in one pass?

Also, I use that same flow meter for my RIMS tube, I've programmed hard limits in my controller to shut the process down at >172F for fear of damaging it at it's 80C max temperature rating (also, my mlt as plastic). Do you have any checks to prevent passing too hot liquid through the meter? Or do you ever even come close? I ask because for me at 120v it doesn't heat up fast enough for me to worry about me or the controls not catching it overheating, at 240v I wouldn't know...

Nice setup btw! :mug:

On demand works good but as mentioned above the tuning can be tricky. Because I am using ambient temp water in my garage in FL, the water is over 75 degrees to start, and I can easily get it to boil at 1 qt/min. I can get it to sparge temp and almost 2 qt/min. That would be 100% duty. Going from ~75 - 170 takes about a 75% duty cycle.

I have the flow meter measuring the fluid into the RIMS tube, not out of it. This way, it never sees over 170 degrees (mash out temp). During mash it sees that temp, during sparge, it only sees the ambient water temp.
 
Keep in mind most SSRs have a min pulse threshold in the hundreds of milliseconds. The datasheet for the ones I use state 350ms. So a pulse of 100ms is too short to turn on the output. This correlates with your observations of only seeing the Led light if the pulse is more than 1/3 of a second.

Where are you getting that information? The SSR spec I show has a transition time of <= 10ms: http://www.ebrewsupply.com/40a-solid-state-relay-ssr/

I suppose the specification is not correct, so the best thing to do would be to just test it.

Speaking to JonW's point about how do I know the BCS is not putting out short pulses, my experience showed that with an output period of 1 second and a duty of 10%, the output never turns on (LED never lights) and with an output of 90%, the output never turns off (LED always stays on).
 
Where are you getting that information? The SSR spec I show has a transition time of <= 10ms: http://www.ebrewsupply.com/40a-solid-state-relay-ssr/

I suppose the specification is not correct, so the best thing to do would be to just test it.

Speaking to JonW's point about how do I know the BCS is not putting out short pulses, my experience showed that with an output period of 1 second and a duty of 10%, the output never turns on (LED never lights) and with an output of 90%, the output never turns off (LED always stays on).

Total brain fart. I think I need a beer. Yeah looking back I see its 10ms. Not sure where I got the 350ms from.
 
Well, on to the next upgrade... Because I despise cleaning, I decided to implement an "AutoClean" system/program. On the new incoming water manifold is a takeoff port for water, piped with a 1/4" poly tube.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1449460338.916611.jpg

That feeds a 24VDC valve which is powered by a relay by the BCS. Zip ties are my friend, especially as I keep adding and changing things!
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1449460417.291031.jpg

The output of that tees into the line where my water tanks feed in.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1449460483.000261.jpg

And here is a look at my cheap/testing CIP sprayer (yeah, it's a sprinkler head). This will be replaced by a legit spray ball. I use the camlock inside the locline sparge ring normally connects to. I used Saran Wrap to view/tune the spray pattern but the photo didn't show well so here it is temporarily off.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1449460666.490687.jpg

I made a program in the BCS to perform the process. First a "rinse" cycle starts that fills the MT based on time. Then that water recircs through the pump/sprayer for a couple minutes, then the appropriate valves open and the water is pumped out through a discharge tube. It will do this a few times, then start a "clean" cycle.

For this cycle, the MT fills up to the sight glass sensor. I use that here so I have a consistent and known amount of water. I don't use it for the rinse cycle because the sight glass sensor measures about 3.5 gallons at the lowest level, I only need about a gallon, and the exact amount is not critical for rinsing.

Once filled, the RIMs tube will heat the water to 130 degrees then prompt me to add PBW. It will recirculate, pause for a soak, then dump. After that it will run a few more rinse cycles.

I will add the BK next now that this is proving worthwhile on the MT side. Also, I am going to add some small inline strainers (only for this cleaning sequence) in front of the pump inlets to pull out junk rather than recirculate it.
 
Looking good man. That's a pretty complicating cleaning cycle for me, but I suppose it all being BCS is nice and hands off.
 
Are you using your chugger to power this? If so, how is the pressure with the sprinkler head. Do you think it will it give you enough psi with a cip ball? I've been wanting to add a cip cycle to my bcs controlled brewery but haven't got to that point yet. I was curious how I would go about it and if my chugger could handle it or if I'd have to add an additional pump to the mix...
 
Yes, my chuggers are doing the pumping. This is because it's easier, they are in the loop, and they need cleaning also. They create plenty of pressure and flow for the sprinkler head. I tried a cheapo rotating head which threw water more erratically but the pattern was more upright which made it difficult to use. Upside down and it hit the bottom, and right side up and it tried to come past the lid.

My understanding, after reading and speaking with the folks at Brewers Hardware is that they need much more pressure and volume than the chuggers can provide. Realistically, they are made to clean large tuns and vessels, not 15 or 20 gallon kettles.

I will try this after a brew and see how it goes. If it doesn't work, I will look for other random/rotating sprayers.
 
I'm interested in your findings. Good to know about the one from BH. I will continue to research this as well.
 
Did my next brew last night. Made a nice Pale Ale/Session IPA, depending on how you look at it. Of course, each time I brew, I learn new items/issues with my system. Here are the problems/issues that popped up that I need to address:

1. My efficiency has not been stellar, so I decided to tighten up the gap on my mill a scosche... Well, that resulted in much better efficiency but it also resulted in a stuck-ish mash. I needed to stir it in the beginning to keep it going. After that it was ok. I have a NorCal false bottom, so not sure what the deal is. My recirc rate may have been a little high, but not out of line IMO. I had a stuck mash on my pumpkin beer, but was never expecting one here with just malt. I am going to leave it and make sure I do a very good grain condition before crushing next time. I was in a hurry and did it kinda half-assed because I didn't rest the grain after conditioning it.

2. During sparge, on occasion the flowmeter/Arduino said the flow was zero. That caused the Arduino to temporarily open the proportional valve, which solved the problem, but not sure what the deal is. I suspect either noise or just a cheap-ass flowmeter=cheap-ass results. Later on, the Arduino locked up, but only during the AutoClean cycles. I think this is due to EMF/voltage spikes from the inlet water valve solenoid. I will add a suppressor/flyback diode to remedy this. Also I got my eye on a non-contact magnetic/inductive flowmeter on eBay...

3. During the sparge, the RIMs tube water temp was all over the place. This has often been an issue with such a quick responding loop that occurs from direct sparge water heating. It has proven difficult to tune. I am also convinced the BCS PID has errors in it and cannot correctly time fast output cycles. I changed it to duty mode at 65% and it held like a champ. Going forward I will just use this mode. With consistent water temp and tightly controlled flow rate through it, there is no reason not to. The good thing is this will free up a BCS output (was using two to take advantage of different PID parameters) because I have no more outputs left! Thinking a valve to control the oxygenator or an automatic hop/adjunct adder. Any votes?

4. During whirlpool, my Chugger decoupled again. I learned that without any restriction (head pressure) and near boiling fluid, this is causing it. Not exactly sure why. I didn't see bubbles so I don't think it was cavitation from the pressure change. When I added a small restriction by placing a clamp on the hose leading to the whirlpool arm, it resolved. I need to add a nozzle to the whirlpool arm for more velocity anyway, so this should take care of that.

5. The AutoClean rinse process worked but didn't exactly clean out the debris. The reason is the junk drawn through the bottom drain recirculated right back into the kettles because it is a closed system. I have two filters on hand but did not have the fittings yet, so I could not install them. I am going to try them, and if they do not work, I will come up with a drain/feed bucket system to strain out debris using a bucket of water and a whirlpool effect. Also, the sprinkler heads worked but they aren't "violent" enough. I need something rotating that directs more water in one place. I would like to make a rotating T-bar with a nozzle on one or both ends to make it spin, but a quick search revealed not much in the way of cheap rotating fittings. Any feedback is appreciated.

6. The real shocker of the night was when I went to run the AutoClean process. I use the MLT sight glass sensor to measure the fill height of the kettles. Since the MLT and the BK are connected during the fill, they automatically level. Once the sensor indicates there is enough water (to cover the BK element), it switches the valves separating the two and begins heating both 5500W elements to draw the full 50A. While it was filling, I started to smell something... I went over to take a look thinking it was something in the control box as I haven't pulled 50A since my initial tests following the build. Well, it was the BK element which was not under water. It was dry-firing and had a nice, bright, cherry glow to it! Slammed the E-stop and let it cool down. Smelled like crap but it sure took care of the gunk that was on it following the boil! As it turned out, the MLT sensor tripped on a water droplet or two that was running down the inside of the sight glass! This was enough to tell the BCS to go to the next state, which was the heating state. Fine tuning it's sensitivity, and adding one (was already on order from eBay) to the BK sight glass as a safety will prevent that from happening again. The element worked fine after that but I will probably order a replacement just in case.

Of course in the end, I made wort! It was bubbling hard 12 hours later, so I will have beer. The sample was delish and I hit the numbers dead-on. I am happy to be making progress, have the big stuff out of the way, and only have some final-ish programming and minor updates. My system is almost as I originally visioned it. I don't really know what left I have to add or upgrade. So what am I going to do now?!? Building is 90% of the fun!
 
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