I had many problems with the last firmware update. I had to go into my controls & reset to my original settings. Until I did this I was unable to get a stable temp setting form my mash with the Bluetooth probe. I lost that brew session on my 35l unit. Hard lesson to learn.
Brewzilla Gen4 Discussion/Tips Talk
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Your plot looks a lot like someone else's that kept the heat on and pump off at the begining of mash, while using the BT temp probe.
If you do that, the bottom will pretty much always heat to your temp difference max. Either turn off heat while pump is off (my recommendation), set heat 8C lower while pump is off, or tighten up the max difference.
Mucklemann
Member
What are your settings? It would be good to have a starting point.
Mucklemann
Member
Thanks. I had the pump on from the beginning with the stop cock at about 45 degrees.
Maybe the flow was too low?
In future I'll use the pump power setting for reproducability.
I think throttling with ball valve is better. The % control turns the pump on and off, and can suck grain back through recirc tubing.
I guess the lag for hot water hitting the probe was long. Maybe dropping the allowable temp difference is a strategy. Also, hitting mash temp better from start might help, but might see the same problem later.
What % heat are you using? With the neoprene jacket, I'd recommend trying 25-35%
Mucklemann
Member
Thanks.
I have the neoprene jacket on as well as the Heat Exchanger Disc and the BT probe, thinking this would be an ideal setup.
I'd like to stick with the percentage power as, being an ex biochemist, I like the idea of reproducability. I understand that the pump cycles 100% on/off but its the results that count.
I might start a new thread that gets people to record their Brewzilla Gen4 mash parameters so that we can all learn what might be optimal:
- Neoprene jacket yes/no
- HED yes/no
- BT probe yes/no
- Temperature hysteresis setting
- Temperature differential setting
- Pump power setting
- Angle of ball valve or flow rate.
- Heat power setting
- PID on/off
- Ambient room temperature
What do people think?
OK - The consensus for using pump duty cycle is to air gap the recirc line. If you don't, pump clogs are higher risk.
Mucklemann
Member
@Neldog0 what are your settings? It's hard to get a full view of different peoples set up as per my above post.
Cheers.
I’m brewing tomorrow & I’ll let you know.
rtstrider
Well-Known Member
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I have had the same issue consistently also. What I do is turn off the heater when doughing in, give the grains a good stir, turn on recirculation to help even out temps, and set the heater to no more than 30% power during mashing. This keeps the mash within 3F-4F of the desired temps. This is for the 9.25 Gallon 110v unit.
- Neoprene jacket yes/no. Yes
- HED yes/no. Yes
- BT probe yes/no. Yes
- Temperature hysteresis setting. 1.0f
- Temperature differential setting. 1.0f
- Pump power setting 65-70 depending on variables
- Angle of ball valve or flow rate. Approximately 60%
- Heat power setting. 65-70
- PID on/off. Off
- Ambient. Currently 69f
- Allowed sensor differential. 1.0f
Lower; 145f
Upper; 212f
Remember, we are trying to achieve the best repeatability. I used to sell the sensor used , & the tighter you get your temp range, the better your repeatability. 145f is as low as I go for mash so I start there. No one starts at 32f.
- Neoprene jacket yes/no. Yes
- HED yes/no. Yes
- BT probe yes/no. Yes
- Temperature hysteresis setting. 1.0f
- Temperature differential setting. 1.0f
- Pump power setting 65-70 depending on variables
- Angle of ball valve or flow rate. Approximately 60%
- Heat power setting. 65-70
- PID on/off. Off
- Ambient. Currently 69f
- Allowed sensor differential. 1.0f
Lower; 145f
Upper; 212f
Remember, we are trying to achieve the best repeatability. I used to sell the sensor used , & the tighter you get your temp range, the better your repeatability. 145f is as low as I go for mash so I start there. No one starts at 32f.
Good list! Should specify heater % (edit: missed it as integer)
edit: Also I'm curious to hear how that goes. You may not be able to maintain temperature with a 1F differential.
edit: Also I'm curious to hear how that goes. You may not be able to maintain temperature with a 1F differential.
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Everything works great with these settings. With the Bluetooth probe, HED, an a precision analogue thermometer as as verification probe I can keep track of temperature differentials very easily and adjust temperature and recirc accordingly to fine tune the brew session Everything settles in within ten minutes & I adjust my mash time to account for any adjustments.
I am very hands on. I do not walk away from the brewing.
I am very hands on. I do not walk away from the brewing.
I bought one of the first Gen4 65L's in the US and been using it for about 17 months and around 34 batches. I usually brew 5.75 gal batches, but have done 8 & 11 gallon batches as well. Tried every combination of PID settings, BT themometer and HED use that I can think of. Watched the David Heath and Kegland videos for PID settings. Researched PID settings. Nothing worked seemed to work, meaning chronic unsatisfactory mash temp stability...until trying the latest manual PID settings with the HED, no BT themo. I brew primarily for competition, so repeatability and predictability are very important. I've been brewing since 1996, so not a new brewer.
Also, The original false bottom fit so tightly that it would warp, which appeared to contribute to the mash stability problems and made the HED unusable. While I felt Kegland should have replaced the poorly fitting false bottom, an email response from Kegland directed me to MoreBeer to buy a new one. The new false bottom helped a great deal (for some reason), and drops in and comes out easily, and works well with the HED (not warped).
- 35L or 65L (I have a 65L Gen4)
- Power (mine is 240V/30A)
- Use rice hulls? (I use 4-8oz every time)
- Wort viscosity aids like Glucabuster (I use it every time--really helps the wort to drain quickly after pulling the malt pipe)
- As the stock setup allowed far too much malt into the boil, I use a BIAB bag in the kettle every time, and pull it before the boil
On Stuck Mashes:
My stock pump is powerful enough to collapse the grist and cause a stuck mash. Using rice hulls and being very careful to not open the ball valve too much (just get a flow going--does not need to be fast) is crucial. Also, and perhaps most importantly, I have found using the HED helps prevent a stuck mash a great deal, as the 'pull' on the grist isn't just in one, small, central place. Cellar Science Glucabuster also helps, and I can tell the difference when not using it.
On the BT thermometer:
I have tried the BT thermometer, but no longer use it. As Kegland says in their video, it measures grist mash temps where it matters most. However, in use I found it to lag the bottom temperature by a wide marge in step mashing, or if the strike temp was too low. To get the middle to catch up to the bottom, anything less than about a 10+F allowed differential does not work quickly enough to matter--the mash ends before the two reach the same temps. So, I tried a 15F and 20F differential to make things more speedy, as a 10C differential is mentioned in videos. The result was a beer with (appearant) attenuation that was way too low (did not come close to FG). My theory is that the bottom of the mash was too hot--too much differential led to different mash temps within the grist. I just need predictability and repeatability, and I know what results I get using only the bottom thermo reading, so that's now all I use.
Also, The original false bottom fit so tightly that it would warp, which appeared to contribute to the mash stability problems and made the HED unusable. While I felt Kegland should have replaced the poorly fitting false bottom, an email response from Kegland directed me to MoreBeer to buy a new one. The new false bottom helped a great deal (for some reason), and drops in and comes out easily, and works well with the HED (not warped).
- Neoprene jacket YES
- HED: YES
- BT probe: No (I have it, but not successful IMO using it)
- Temperature hysteresis setting: 1F
- Temperature differential setting: N/A (not using BT)
- Pump power setting: 100%
- Angle of ball valve or flow rate: about: pointing at about about 8 o'clock
- Heat power setting: depends on batch size, but 5gal usually 35%
- PID on/off: On (using latest manual default PID settings)
- Ambient room temperature: whatever is outside--does not seem to make much difference
- 35L or 65L (I have a 65L Gen4)
- Power (mine is 240V/30A)
- Use rice hulls? (I use 4-8oz every time)
- Wort viscosity aids like Glucabuster (I use it every time--really helps the wort to drain quickly after pulling the malt pipe)
- As the stock setup allowed far too much malt into the boil, I use a BIAB bag in the kettle every time, and pull it before the boil
On Stuck Mashes:
My stock pump is powerful enough to collapse the grist and cause a stuck mash. Using rice hulls and being very careful to not open the ball valve too much (just get a flow going--does not need to be fast) is crucial. Also, and perhaps most importantly, I have found using the HED helps prevent a stuck mash a great deal, as the 'pull' on the grist isn't just in one, small, central place. Cellar Science Glucabuster also helps, and I can tell the difference when not using it.
On the BT thermometer:
I have tried the BT thermometer, but no longer use it. As Kegland says in their video, it measures grist mash temps where it matters most. However, in use I found it to lag the bottom temperature by a wide marge in step mashing, or if the strike temp was too low. To get the middle to catch up to the bottom, anything less than about a 10+F allowed differential does not work quickly enough to matter--the mash ends before the two reach the same temps. So, I tried a 15F and 20F differential to make things more speedy, as a 10C differential is mentioned in videos. The result was a beer with (appearant) attenuation that was way too low (did not come close to FG). My theory is that the bottom of the mash was too hot--too much differential led to different mash temps within the grist. I just need predictability and repeatability, and I know what results I get using only the bottom thermo reading, so that's now all I use.
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I also am no newbie. I have the 35l version & found it to have a large learning curve. I brew all the time and each batch presents its ow challenges. I have had good success with the HED & Bluetooth thermometer. I have to note that I also use a precision analogue thermometer to read to the bottom of the mash. This allows me to fine tune to account for the temperature gradients. I have been able to get my temps to settle in within 10 minutes.
I have been brewing for over 30 years. I love every minute including both the frustrations & successes. The Brewzilla allowed me to continue my passion because I moved into a smaller house & had to get rid of my three tub system.
In summary the Brewzilla has proven to be a double edge sword. So I will conclude with “relax & have a homebrew”
Mucklemann
Member
Thanks guys.
I think this demonstrates the complexity of dealing with organic systems.
I hope that the bullet point list can help others dial in their equipment.
I won't be able to do another batch for about 3 months due to personal issues, but when I do I'll report back.
I think this demonstrates the complexity of dealing with organic systems.
I hope that the bullet point list can help others dial in their equipment.
I won't be able to do another batch for about 3 months due to personal issues, but when I do I'll report back.
Something I forgot to mention. Because we are trying to get the best repeatability on our beers I looked at the sensor on the base of these units. Repeatability is the key to temp control. The sensor on the base of the unit can be keyed into what we do in homebrew. Look at the low calibration. The standard is 32f. No one goes to 32f in homebrew. If you can tighten up the range of temps for your homebrew then look at your lowest you need and calibrate the low cal to that temp & and the high to 212f. If you do this you ca improve temp repeatability by up to 47%.
FYI; I used to sell sensors
Mucklemann
Member
That is great advice (plus everything else you provided as our setups are identical). I'll calibrate it today using that method.
Thanks. It works great. It does not mean that you cannot looking at lower temps. It just means that the repeatability starts to drop in those ranges.
DuncB
Well-Known Member
A grainfather !!
Stick with Brewzilla. I have a number of people trying to figure out how it works. If you’ve got a Brewzilla. Work through the learning curve. Both units have learning curves.
What do you need to know?
Are trying to buy one or the other?
For the Brewzilla the HED (heat exchanger), & the Bluetooth thermometer. This combination provides better control of temps for your mash.
I have been very happy since I added these two items. They are inexpensive.
That's great info- thanks! @pricelessbrewing got a Brewzilla, and has given me some info too but I'm getting overwhelmed by the optional stuff. Consistent temperatures are important to me, as I'll be downsizing from a three vessel all-electric HERMS that I had nailed and never was off more than a degree or two. I hate learning new things!
DuncB
Well-Known Member
I'm trying to- it's a bigger transition from going small with a cooler MLT to a 1/2 barrel all electric HERMS, believe it or not. That was gradual- oh, this works but I need a pump! Oh, this is great but I need another pump. Oh, I like this but should have this......
Getting rid of it now seems like selling a child.
Mucklemann
Member
I think this has already been answered and may seem obvious, but do people run the pump while bringing the unit to strike temp?
I didn't do this for my mash and my temp was 2C under.
I realised my potential mistake while I was calibrating yesterday with 10 litres of water and trying to get an even temp.
I didn't do this for my mash and my temp was 2C under.
I realised my potential mistake while I was calibrating yesterday with 10 litres of water and trying to get an even temp.
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I do. I basically run the pump all day. During strike water heating, it helps keep the water mixed to get accurate temperature readings.
Mucklemann
Member
@KegLand,
I have done one batch in my new Brewzilla 35L Gen4 and had issues, like many other new customers on this thread.
The default values and user-guide do not provide enough clear, consolidated information for a new customer to get the best from their new unit.
If there was a clear step-by-step guide to get a new customer going on their first batch, there would be a lot less hesitation on this forum to purchasing a unit as well as more satisfied customers. Default values on the system do not give the full picture of a batch from beginning to end.
Therefore, can you please provide step-by-step information from your own testing and experience in building the product based on the following:
Recipe: US Pale Ale (i.e. a typical recipe to begin with. Maybe even provide a recipe on Brewfather)
System (this is my system, but on reading this thread would appear to be the recommended setup for new Gen4 customers):
Equipment calibration:
2. Mash-in
3. Mash
5. Boil
6. Hopstand
7. Chilling
I have done one batch in my new Brewzilla 35L Gen4 and had issues, like many other new customers on this thread.
The default values and user-guide do not provide enough clear, consolidated information for a new customer to get the best from their new unit.
If there was a clear step-by-step guide to get a new customer going on their first batch, there would be a lot less hesitation on this forum to purchasing a unit as well as more satisfied customers. Default values on the system do not give the full picture of a batch from beginning to end.
Therefore, can you please provide step-by-step information from your own testing and experience in building the product based on the following:
Recipe: US Pale Ale (i.e. a typical recipe to begin with. Maybe even provide a recipe on Brewfather)
System (this is my system, but on reading this thread would appear to be the recommended setup for new Gen4 customers):
- Brewzilla 35L Gen4 240V (provide a separate guide for 110V customers if different)
- Neoprene jacket
- BT probe
- HED in place
- PID off (as using BT probe)
Equipment calibration:
- High and low temperature recommendations (E.g. 62 and 100)
- Target temperature
- Heat %
- Pumping via recirculating arm on/off
- If on, Pump %
- Hysteresis value
- BT probe present/absent
- If present, temperature differential
2. Mash-in
3. Mash
- Advise use of top plate
5. Boil
6. Hopstand
7. Chilling
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- Neoprene jacket yes/no. Yes
- HED yes/no. Yes
- BT probe yes/no. Yes
- Temperature hysteresis setting. 1.0f
- Temperature differential setting. 1.0f
- Pump power setting. 100%
- Angle of ball valve or flow rate. 8 0’clock position. Change as required.
- Heat power setting. 65-70 percent
- PID on/off. Off
- Ambient. Currently 69f
- Allowed sensor differential. 1.0f
Lower; 145f
Upper; 212f
Remember, we are trying to achieve the best repeatability. The tighter you get your temp range, the better your repeatability. 145f is as low as I go for mash so I start there. No one starts at 32f.
Also. For recirculation & heat settings, every brew session is different. Adjustments are needed to try to get the base sensor & the Bluetooth to balance. The goal is to get an average mass temp. A few degrees up or down during the session has minimal impact on the conversion of the starches. As you drift up and down, when you approach your desired mash temp the starches are going to convert.
No, but I chill to 40F sometimes, and under 50F for every lager : )
and precision != accuracy
Edit: to elaborate, you want precision (e.g. tight cluster of outputs for identical inputs) for repeatability, but adjusting calibration points is an attempt for accuracy (i.e. point cloud well-centered on the "correct" value).
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That’s a discussion on fermentation. This was about strike temp , mash in, & maintaining temp for creating a wort. This equipment is made for repeatability.
No, I mean I use the IC and the brewzilla temperature probe for chilling. So at least personally, I do care about accuracy over 40F-180F.
FWIW, calibration doesn't affect repeatability. All you need to know is that 150F is the same 150F every time, even if it's different from your neighbor's 150F.
Mucklemann
Member
Agreed, once you are familiar with your equipment.
Most people on this thread have had to use trial and error to get to the point where they are confident and have 30 years brewing behind them. Well done! In the end everyone has their own technique.
But there needs to be a starting point, not just a discussion on endpoints.
I am asking @KegLand to help circumvent that process as much as possible, leaving a shallower learning curve for people new to all-grain brewing on their equipment.
The Brewzilla user manual is not written from the perspective of a new customer, but from the perspective of someone who already knows what they are doing.
It is only focussing on the assembly and how to set individual settings. Not how to actually make a beer.
There should be a section titled: "Making your first batch". Starting with calibration and moving on to preparing strike temperature and then the remaining steps, followed by cleaning, as this is how the unit will be used.
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Willy
Active Member
I have now done 4 batches with my new Brewzilla Gen 4. Like others - I was a bit overwhelmed with options of how to make this awesome puppy work well.
I found a David Heath video very helpful on setting up PID and I love how it works now. Spot on, gliding up to the proper temp and holding the mash temp like a pro.
I'm trying to- it's a bigger transition from going small with a cooler MLT to a 1/2 barrel all electric HERMS, believe it or not. That was gradual- oh, this works but I need a pump! Oh, this is great but I need another pump. Oh, I like this but should have this......
Getting rid of it now seems like selling a child.
My brew setup started with
- Propane Bayou Classic 5gal BIAB setup (edit: 10 gal kettle IIRC)
- Modified 5gal setup to have a false bottom and used the same kettle for mash/boil
- OG Grainfather 110V, pre-ordered it so what is that 2014?
- Brewzilla Gen 4 220V, 2024
Grainfather was great when it worked, was bad when it didn't. No need to go into details here.
Brewzilla Gen 4 220 gets up to temp fast compared to the Grainfather (only 300W more supposidly)
The simplicity of the Brewzilla and Grainfather is really nice, but a sparge water heater could be helpful. Luckily I am using my Grainfather as a sparge water heater. I am using the CF Wort Chiller from the Grainfather in tandem with the IC from Brewzilla. Why? Because I want to be able to get a cold break, but also want to transfer the beer quickly. I run the IC and CFC together and within 2-3 minutes of turning the kettle off I start transfer to the fermenter.
CF wort chiller still irks me out, but I try to do my best to clean with PBW and Starsan after use. One of these days I am going to try to pull a small brush through with a string.
220 definitely does not need a neoprene jacket.
I bought the chiller hose kit, which is just a 5/8" hose kit with garden hose attachment. Not needed if you already have misc. parts like this laying around.
I bought the CIP attachment which I have not used yet, but will probably use.
You will like things about the Brewzilla and you will probably dislike things about the Brewzilla, but the price can't be beat if you ask me. I wouldn't bother with going crazy on options and accessories and just add a few here and there as you think you need them. Like I said, I pretty much have only used the IC hose kit. Just my $0.02.
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