Just kinda wondering how much sugar is too much to add to cider,I have a 5 gal. keg brewing now, it took 4 gallons fresh pressed cider and 20# sugar,I then pinched lavin 1116 in. It's chugging along but I thought it would brewing like a coffee pot. whats the deal?
Brewing BIG Ciders
- Thread starter miloa
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My guess is with 20lb of sugar in there your yeast will die in the alcohol before all the sugar gets eaten, giving you a super sugary cider.
Well, that's not really a big cider, it's a wine that will stop fermenting at about 15-18% ABV (depending on the yeast you used) and will be very, very, very sweet. Like sweet enough to hurt your teeth.
For my apple wine (about 12.5% ABV) I use about 1.25 pounds of sugar per gallon and it finishes dry. With a bit more sugar, it would finish sweet.
The yeast will be overwhelmed with alcohol poisoning before you get a drinkable product, I'm afraid.
Did you happen to take any hydrometer readings?
For my apple wine (about 12.5% ABV) I use about 1.25 pounds of sugar per gallon and it finishes dry. With a bit more sugar, it would finish sweet.
The yeast will be overwhelmed with alcohol poisoning before you get a drinkable product, I'm afraid.
Did you happen to take any hydrometer readings?
f1oored
Well-Known Member
I can see it now, the weight on the bottom of the hydrometer barely breaking the surface. Dear Lord! 20lbs in 4 gallons, my guess for a SG would be about 1.300 my hydrometer doesnt even go to 1.2. I'm a little surprised you got that much to disolve.
I'll bet if you sit down close to the carboy and be really quiet, you can hear the yeast wheezing... If it were me and I was trying to figure out what to do with this I might go ahead and start a gallon of straight apple juice with a very dry yeast, like champagne. Ferment it dry and rack it a couple of times maybe to get it clear as you can. Then use it to "back-dry" (as opposed to backsweeten) your batch of fermenting apple syrup when it finishes. Just a thought--on the other hand, wait & see...a lot of folks on here say their SWMBO's like it really sweet. You might have a batch of lady-killer on your hands 
MultumInParvo
Well-Known Member
never mind. I was confused
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MartyB
Well-Known Member
Just a thought--on the other hand, wait & see...a lot of folks on here say their SWMBO's like it really sweet. You might have a batch of lady-killer on your hands
Lady-killer? That much sugar I'd call it the Diabetic's Nightmare.
Most likely you will die from CO2 poisoning with activity like that. Leave me your cider and brewing equipment in your will please.
I like my cider kinda sweet, **** I like my beer kinda sweet also,belgium triple,strong imperial stoutsand most of my buddies like em too. What I was trying to do with this cider was trying to get more of a brandy feeling, I've got a blueberry cyser going and its got around 4# of honey and sugar per gallon its SSG was 1.165,last check it was at 1.098 and it had a brandy taste still too sweet, oh that has lavin 1118 yeast
lalvin 1118 has an ABV tolerance of 18%. That's around 1.140 for an OG. You started at double that, so you'll probably end up around 18% with 35 Brix residual sugar. For a comparison, Kool-Aid is about 8 Brix and a sweet wine will be 1-2.
You are seeing the impact of high osmotic pressure. The yeast are having an extremely difficult time drawing sugar into the cells to process it. The fermentation might take years and I'm not being sarcastic. I would get 4-5 more gallons of cider and dilute. When it is done, back-sweeten to taste.
You are seeing the impact of high osmotic pressure. The yeast are having an extremely difficult time drawing sugar into the cells to process it. The fermentation might take years and I'm not being sarcastic. I would get 4-5 more gallons of cider and dilute. When it is done, back-sweeten to taste.
Mista_Sparkle
Well-Known Member
hmmm, so could you water it down and make some pretty wicked kool-aid punch type stuff?
craven_morhead
Well-Known Member
In the future, I think back-sweetening your cider is going to be the way to go. Splenda does it well. Going about it this way, all you're doing is kicking your yeast in the balls.
johnnyo1977
Well-Known Member
WOW and I think I am out there sometimes. But i never thought of using 20lb of sugar in a batch of cider. that is enought to give some one seizures and definitely have sugar plumbs dancing around in your head.
I would thin the mix on that one. even if you split what you have and use half in one carboy and half in another and add freah cider to fill. you would still have 10# of sugar per carboy.
I am instrested to see how it turns out.
I would thin the mix on that one. even if you split what you have and use half in one carboy and half in another and add freah cider to fill. you would still have 10# of sugar per carboy.
I am instrested to see how it turns out.
I've read in a couple of threads of guys using lavin 1116 and reaching abv of 25%,that is kinda what I'm trying. Oh yea,have you ever heard of wild yeast taking over 1118 yeast,my cherry cider stopped brewing at 1.010,and I like it, slighty sweet but has a punch, but that is where my wild yeast takes it also.
I don't believe that 1116 or 1118 will ever go much above 18%. I've never heard a reliable source say that it does, and the even the manufacturer states that 18% is the max. I think even 18% is pushing it, and that would only be with incremental feedings, yeast nutrient, etc. You could probably push it that high by starting smaller, and adding sugar every 3 days. Adding 20 pounds at once will have stressed the yeast, and not give the "babying" that a super high gravity fermenter needs.
Wild yeast will easily infect any unprotected wine or cider. It might not "take over", but without campden or an airlock it's likely to be contaminated with wild yeast.
I actually like the cider made with wild yeast better that is why I don't kill it with camden tabs, I added the lavin 1116 just trying to get the abv higher,should I add more yeast? small doses of nutrient and booster? or is there another type of yeast I could try?
A wild yeast will definitely NOT go over 18%, or even nearly that high, so for a higher ABV, you'd want the 1116 or 1118. Even so, this cider will not ferment as far as you'd probably like. The yeast will be very stressed by the time it reaches 12-14% due to the high sugar content, and the inhospitable environment. More yeast won't help, I'm afraid.
My blueberry cyser has a honey sugar ratio of 4# per gallon it started at 1.165 and is now 1.088. Each week it drops about .010, I'd like to get to about 1.010, also where I want my Big Cider to finish>
khiddy
Well-Known Member
I suspect that the brewers who are getting 20-25%ABV are doing an eisbock thing, where they're fermenting to 18% or so and then freezing to remove some of the water, thus condensing what they got. The challenge is that this also condenses the hop oils and melanoidins, thus throwing things out of balance. Any off tastes will only be magnified by such a process. But that's just speculation.
It sounds like you're trying it the wrong way, and you're gonna end up with just a boozy syrup that will be undrinkable.
It sounds like you're trying it the wrong way, and you're gonna end up with just a boozy syrup that will be undrinkable.
The type of beer I'm talking about is like Sam Adams utopious a 25% vintage ale,I was told by a brewer I know who brews a vintage ale of 20% and a imperial stout at 22% that they use a special yeast,then again they might be the only ones to have it.
Getting high ABVs requires stepped ferments, tightly controlled temperatures, in addition to special yeasts. Nothing exists that can handle the sugar levels you have, not even a turbo yeast or WLP099.
Sorry to tell you this, but it won't happen. Won't get much lower than it is right now, as a matter of fact. It'll stop pretty soon, probably by about 1.050 for that cyser.
As we've been saying, pushing yeast past it's alcohol tolerance isn't a matter of just dumping in sugar and wine yeast and waiting. It takes incremental feedings (not dumping 20# in at once), proper aeration, proper nutrients, etc.
Yan
Well-Known Member
I just brewed a cider with nothing but juice that came to an ABV of around 9, according to my vinometer. I used Ambrosia, a locally discovered variety that is sweet as sweet gets, plus a lot of over-ripe galas and fujis, as well as everything else in my boss's orchard. I took two separate readings to make sure. I messed up and counted US gallons at the start, fermented in an oversized bucket and didn't notice I was a little shy. So I made a generous juice top-up in secondary with newly pressed juice. My initial gravity reading was sketchy, so I just assumed it would come out to around 7%, considering the sweetness of the apples.
I think this is about as big as a fully natural cider is going to get. And I even racked once and threw away a lot of lees, topping up with water.
I think this is about as big as a fully natural cider is going to get. And I even racked once and threw away a lot of lees, topping up with water.
If my ferments stop I was thinking about pitching some Eau de vie yeast, I just put some nutrients and energizer and it is going pretty good again. I've decided to give these ciders all the time they need but alot of my regular ciders are finishing up now. I still dont know why my lavin 1118 and 1116 slowed down so soon.
It's way better to feed the ferment with sugar and oxygen for the first half of fermentation rather than all at once. Even if you were able to hit 1.016, it would taste like rocket fuel.
craven_morhead
Well-Known Member
Miloa, it seems like what people are saying in this thread isn't really getting though to you. You're not going to get over 20% with yeast that exists on this planet without (1) developing a proprietary yeast of your own, (2) going through a freezing/eisbock process, (3) distilling, or (4) maybe, MAYBE babying your yeast to a ridiculous degree.
If you can do it, great, but those are your options, and I don't think (4) is a realistic one. If you want to be cranking out beverages with such a high alcohol content, you want to get into distilling.
If you can do it, great, but those are your options, and I don't think (4) is a realistic one. If you want to be cranking out beverages with such a high alcohol content, you want to get into distilling.
Yan
Well-Known Member
Experiment.
I've heard of champagne yeasts never conking out until they get to higher than 18, but it's rare. Try incrimentally adding more and more must, the way I've heard that some mead makers will make very big or sweet show meads. Try using nutrients and aerating the crap out of it at the beginning. Read yeast data from the yeast companies and try to choose a good yeast. Lalvin and Wyeast have information on all their strains -somewhere- on the internet.
An experiment is always worth it, as long as it's not too big an experiment. Then, if you get up to a 20% abv, post it to silence the skeptics who are too timid to try the experiment. I don't think it's completely unrealistic, but probably rare and difficult to duplicate once it happens. At the very worst, you'll have an apple wine that sits at 17% with a sweet finish.
I've heard of champagne yeasts never conking out until they get to higher than 18, but it's rare. Try incrimentally adding more and more must, the way I've heard that some mead makers will make very big or sweet show meads. Try using nutrients and aerating the crap out of it at the beginning. Read yeast data from the yeast companies and try to choose a good yeast. Lalvin and Wyeast have information on all their strains -somewhere- on the internet.
An experiment is always worth it, as long as it's not too big an experiment. Then, if you get up to a 20% abv, post it to silence the skeptics who are too timid to try the experiment. I don't think it's completely unrealistic, but probably rare and difficult to duplicate once it happens. At the very worst, you'll have an apple wine that sits at 17% with a sweet finish.
Now that's the attitude I'm talking about, to admit defeat before trying is'nt in my blood. I've gone online and my options for a different yeast are many White labs and Wyeast both make yeasts that can break 25%, also there other companies out there who make even bigger yeasts. Maybe I do have a head like a brick, but making cider(really apple wine) is pretty cheap and its is funnnnn man. Both of my big ciders are chugging along ok for now, I believe my other ciders stopped at 1.012 for lack of nutrients I dont see why lavin 1118 or 1116 would stop other wise.
