Bottle caps and alleged oxygen ingress.

[RPh_Guy]

Speaking of cork, perhaps corking and capping is a potential solution for those wanting to considerably extend shelf life without oxidation.

This probably also reduces the scalping effect by the cap.

 

[mongoose33]

Speaking of cork, perhaps corking and capping is a potential solution for those wanting to considerably extend shelf life without oxidation.

This probably also reduces the scalping effect by the cap.

What's "the scalping effect?" Never heard of it. (The education of Mongoose33 continues).

 

[RPh_Guy]

The oxygen absorbing caps also absorb hop aroma to some extent.

 

[Big Monk]

Zero oxidation=zero aging. Why TF would I put up a beer for a few years for it to stay exactly the same? Read the book 'to cork or not to cork', a treatise on the quest to develop a synthetic wine closure that permits the graceful aging of wine that natural cork does, without the unpredictable quality issues of a closure made from natural materials.

A perfectly hermetic seal would create a Schrödinger's beer, simultaneously alive and dead. Since one can enjoy fresh beer whenever one chooses, what intrinsic value is there in preserving it in its fresh, unaged state? Imagine meeting a wizened old man with the emotional maturity of a child? There is value in preserving something to be sure, but to erase the passage of time is wasteful of the one truly unrenewable resource.

I’m always intrigued that people who advocate aging don’t try and mimic those flavors in other ways to circumvent having to sit on a beer for an eternity.

I’m thinking recipe, fermentation, other process variables as opposed to just time and rolling the dice.

I have a pal who did a run of doppelbock where he mimicked oxidation flavors with ingredient choices and drank it fresh.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Because with space it's easy to brew a big batch of something, and then stick it in a cool dark corner for a few years and forget about it.

I don't know how easily one could replicate the flavors that come with slow aging.

 

[Big Monk]

Because with space it's easy to brew a big batch of something, and then stick it in a cool dark corner for a few years and forget about it.

I don't know how easily one could replicate the flavors that come with slow aging.

What an awful proposition: spend a whole day making something and then sticking in the basement for a year!

There gotsta be a better way.

 

[Big Monk]

EDIT: Double post.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Reminds me of a "local" distillery.

They hang oak chips in their barrels. They claim they can cut the aging in half.

Mate, you're just increasing the wood character. You're not making it age faster. If anything it'd do the same thing faster in a smaller barrel.

You just can't rush it.

 

[Big Monk]

Reminds me of a "local" distillery.

They hang oak chips in their barrels. They claim they can cut the aging in half.

Mate, you're just increasing the wood character. You're not making it age faster. If anything it'd do the same thing faster in a smaller barrel.

You just can't rush it.

It goes back to the whole thing of aging vs. not aging.

My opinion is less valid because I don’t age any of my beers. Not my Dark Strongs, not my RIS.

Different people after different things. I don’t want aged character in my beer and I damn sure don’t want to wait a year to drink it.

I have 2 kids under 5 and if I’m going to use up a whole day on a weekend, I better be able to drink that beer and have it taste damn good after 30 days.

 

[Qhrumphf]

It goes back to the whole thing of aging vs. not aging.

My opinion is less valid because I don’t age any of my beers. Not my Dark Strongs, not my RIS.

Different people after different things. I don’t want aged character in my beer and I damn sure don’t want to wait a year to drink it.

I have 2 kids under 5 and if I’m going to use up a whole day on a weekend, I better be able to drink that beer and have it taste damn good after 30 days.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that either. I appreciate fresh and I appreciate aged. And there's nothing I brew that isn't great fresh (apart from old fashioned sours) either.

 

[bleme]

I’m always intrigued that people who advocate aging don’t try and mimic those flavors in other ways to circumvent having to sit on a beer for an eternity.

I’m thinking recipe, fermentation, other process variables as opposed to just time and rolling the dice.

I have a pal who did a run of doppelbock where he mimicked oxidation flavors with ingredient choices and drank it fresh.

The first beer that blew my mind was a Stone IRS, aged for 5 years before being served at the local pizza place. A week later, all he had was the fresh version. I enjoyed the fresh, but it was nothing like the aged one.

 

[Big Monk]

The first beer that blew my mind was a Stone IRS, aged for 5 years before being served at the local pizza place. A week later, all he had was the fresh version. I enjoyed the fresh, but it was nothing like the aged one.

That's the point: of all the things people pursue, why not pursue artificial "aging" through interesting use of ingredients, process, etc.? It can be done, however, it does not really get talked about.

If I gave you a beer that sat for 5 years, then one that was artificially "aged", and they taste the same (not saying they would/could), wouldn't you want to pursue the latter?

 

[Qhrumphf]

Can it be done though? That's where I'm skeptical.

If you could replicate cellared character in fresh beer, yeah I'd be all about it.

But I sincerely doubt that's possible. At least not without tasting fake.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Can it be done though? That's where I'm skeptical.

If you could replicate cellared character in fresh beer, yeah I'd be all about it.

But I sincerely doubt that's possible. At least not without tasting fake.

As HG beers age over time they develop butterscotch and sherry-like notes. Couldn't you soak some oak cubes in sherry for a few weeks then add them to secondary? What about putting one cube in each bottle to simulate years of barrel aging in just a few months? Carb the bottles with a werther's original to try and capture some butterscotch notes, or back sweeten with caramelized lactose, is that even possible? It may not be possible or practical to faux-age a beer in a way that it would fool an expert's palate, but perhaps making an exaggerated caricature of an aged beer would be interesting?

 

[Qhrumphf]

I brought up said unnamed distillery earlier because they think likewise.

Adding (more) oak doesn't age it faster, just makes it oakier. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not the same thing.

American brewers often try to do what I guess is being suggested, using lots of specialty malts in ESB trying to replicate often years old English examples.

They never taste the same. Not like old Bitter OR fresh Bitter.

 

[Big Monk]

I brought up said unnamed distillery earlier because they think likewise.

Adding (more) oak doesn't age it faster, just makes it oakier. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not the same thing.

American brewers often try to do what I guess is being suggested, using lots of specialty malts in ESB trying to replicate often years old English examples.

They never taste the same. Not like old Bitter OR fresh Bitter.

I’m really referring to high gravity Belgians and RIS. Not booze and not old English ales. I get what you mean but this topic of aging is ubiquitous with those 2 beers I’ve mentioned. I’m not always sure why either.

I guess I just cringe when people say “I NEED to age this for 1, 2, or 3 years...” and would like to think of a way to:

a.) Get people to unlearn or reassess this maxim (Why does it need that long? Bad process masquerading as rule of thumb? Legit flavor development? Does it really need to be 12-15% ABV? Could your fermentation be better?)

b.) Help people think of ways to achieve some of those flavors, if possible, by other means.

 

[Qhrumphf]

If you NEED to age it, your process is rubbish.

The only beers that MUST be aged are traditional aged sours. And that's a different ball game. And those pick up layers and layers after 5-10 years that's really worth it. I think I've seen you post hating sours categorically, so in that case not your bag.

I've poured 13% stouts and 14% Beglians weeks after brewing and they're great. They don't *improve* with age, they *change* with age. As dark malts and alcohol oxidize together they can do some neat things.

Among strong Belgians, I for one ONLY see value in aging Belgian Dark Strong/Quads. Paler strong Belgians do not hold up at all, and Dubbel barely does. And even then you reach points where the sweet character and aging out of bitterness destroys it.

Barleywines and Imperial Stouts have more heft to em and hold up better longer, and tend to retain a bittersweet vinous character, rather than a cloying sweet spicy old Quad.

 

[Big Monk]

If you NEED to age it, your process is rubbish.

Exactly my point. High gravity brewing is also high skill in my opinion. Too many people seem to slam out a 12-15% (which is crazy to me as I don't brew anything over 9% unless it's a Rochefort 10 clone!) beer and then sit on it because that's what they were told to do. In reality, they made a hot mess through no real fault of their own because it's somehow accepted wisdom that certain beers NEED age when they really don't.

Not targeting any specific person in this thread. It's just something I see quite a bit:

Person 1: "I'm brewing a Quad this weekend. Brewing it for next year."

Person 2: "Why are you sitting on it for a year?"

Person 1: "That's what you do for this style."

Person 2: "Oh really..." ()

I guess my real point is that if you take into account that aging out of necessity seems like bad process, and that what we for sure is that true aging is about change and development, then if we can pinpoint and reference those changes and associated flavors, we may be able to mimic them, in certain instances, through creative use of ingredients and process.

Could be a very interesting thread to pull and experiment with.

 

[MaxStout]

I fell into the high-gravity trap on my first mead. I followed some threads where many suggested that the ratio should be somewhere around 3 lbs/gallon, so I followed that. Ten lbs of honey into a 3 gal batch, and I ended up with 3 gallons of rocket fuel. I brewed it in 2015, bulk-aged 9 months and bottled. Tasted like honey-flavored hootch at ~15% ABV. I still have a few bottles. They still have an alcohol burn, though less so. Different now, not necessarily better.

 

[LuckyBeagleBrewing]

I am very happy with my beer and I will keep doing what I am doing. While I don't have to age my beer, I do so because I want to. And also I cannot drink as much as I make.

I will still listen to those brewers that said for every .010 starting gravity, lager for 1 week minimum. My German lagers have always rewarded me using that formula. Never oxidized and excellent flavor.

 

[DonJuan7]

What this thread lacked, among other things, was some basic knowledge on the materials being used under caps along with their stated purposes i.e oxygen aborbing, oxygen barrier, etc. If we don't add that knowledge in then the discussion cannot have a solid basis to proceed from.