German Pils Bo Berry Pils (West Coast Pilsner)

[ihavenonickname]

Grain Bill was a blend of Weyermann Floor Malted Pils and Rahr 2 Row with some Chit malt for foam purposes.

This one is Perle at 70 and 40 then a blend of Calista and American Noble Cascade at 10 and WP. DH was 4oz of Ekuanot. Honestly my first time using Ekuanot.

What did you target for ibus bittering? What was your late hop quantity? How did it turn out!?

have you needed to oxygenate later generations of the yeast? I’ve also been really enjoying 34/70 but open to trying others.

 

[couchsending]

What did you target for ibus bittering? What was your late hop quantity? How did it turn out!?

have you needed to oxygenate later generations of the yeast? I’ve also been really enjoying 34/70 but open to trying others.

I believe it was close to 50 theoretical IBUs. I’m at 7000 feet though so my utilization is much worse. IBUs are a complete crap shoot for me.

I did 1oz each of American Noble cascade and Grungeist at 10 and WP. The alpha is super low. Grungeist might be 2.9 and Am Noble Cascade is 1.1.

I oxygenate every beer where I’m using liquid yeast, never for dry yeast. For lagers it’s 4 minutes at .25L/min at 46* with a .5 micron stone and pure o2.

If you have good temp control I would use this Andech’s strain of yeast over any other strain personally. It’s fast and so crazy clean and drops clear much faster than any lager yeast I’ve used. This last beer with Ekuanot I didn’t even lager just stuck it in the keezer on gas at 35* and in 10 days it was carbed and crystal clear. I’m not usually a proponent of quick turn lagers. Prolly made close to 50 over the last four years and I always pitch and ferment cold with only a very modest increase to maybe 54 at the end of fermentation and then slowly cooling to 39 for a week and then slowly downs to 30 for a month. However with this yeast and a heavy dry hop that pretty much covers any sort of delicate nuance there’s no need to be that slow.

It definitely doesn’t attenuate as much as 34/70 so you need to plan for that but for these beers I’m not as worried about getting below 1.010. Little extra body helps to carry the hops.

 

[cuda6pak]

I believe it was close to 50 theoretical IBUs. I’m at 7000 feet though so my utilization is much worse. IBUs are a complete crap shoot for me.

I did 1oz each of American Noble cascade and Grungeist at 10 and WP. The alpha is super low. Grungeist might be 2.9 and Am Noble Cascade is 1.1.

I oxygenate every beer where I’m using liquid yeast, never for dry yeast. For lagers it’s 4 minutes at .25L/min at 46* with a .5 micron stone and pure o2.

If you have good temp control I would use this Andech’s strain of yeast over any other strain personally. It’s fast and so crazy clean and drops clear much faster than any lager yeast I’ve used. This last beer with Ekuanot I didn’t even lager just stuck it in the keezer on gas at 35* and in 10 days it was carbed and crystal clear. I’m not usually a proponent of quick turn lagers. Prolly made close to 50 over the last four years and I always pitch and ferment cold with only a very modest increase to maybe 54 at the end of fermentation and then slowly cooling to 39 for a week and then slowly downs to 30 for a month. However with this yeast and a heavy dry hop that pretty much covers any sort of delicate nuance there’s no need to be that slow.

It definitely doesn’t attenuate as much as 34/70 so you need to plan for that but for these beers I’m not as worried about getting below 1.010. Little extra body helps to carry the hops.

Do any other yeast mfg's offer the Andech's strain other than the seasonal WLP835/German Lager X for homebrewers? I would like to get ahold of a pitch of it to try with some Italian-style Pils and WCP. I tried it once a looooong time ago and don't think I did it justice.

 

[Andre3000]

Do any other yeast mfg's offer the Andech's strain other than the seasonal WLP835/German Lager X for homebrewers? I would like to get ahold of a pitch of it to try with some Italian-style Pils and WCP. I tried it once a looooong time ago and don't think I did it justice.

I believe that's it. WLP will be releasing in the Oct-Nov-Dec rotation. I'm going to try it as well.

 

[couchsending]

Do any other yeast mfg's offer the Andech's strain other than the seasonal WLP835/German Lager X for homebrewers? I would like to get ahold of a pitch of it to try with some Italian-style Pils and WCP. I tried it once a looooong time ago and don't think I did it justice.

Rocky Mtn Lager from Wyeast is the same. Imperial offers it as Pilgrimage but I believe it’s for pros only. I got some through Inland Island in CO. They randomly package some for homebrewers and sell it to a local shop.

Blows my mind that it’s so hard to find. I’ve used a lot of lager strains and this one seems to be by far the best.

 

[cuda6pak]

Got ahold of some INIS-711 German Monk Lager from The Brew Hut. Called them up and they were about to place a large order of HB vials and tacked my order onto theirs. 6 vials should be arriving today. Planning on brewing up a Helles and then racking onto that cake for a West Coast Pils. Debating since it's so fresh whether to pitch 4 vials direct (800b cells, ~1.050SG), or to do a proper 3L starter with 2 vials. Excited to try this strain out as it's been about 4 years and I don't think I gave it a fair shot. I'll follow couch's recommendation and pitch around 46, ferment and 50, and rise to 54-58 toward tail end of fermentation.

Also, for those with larger setups. You can order a 1bbl pitch for about $75 from Inland Island. They only ship overnight which for me was around $70, but looking back now I should have just ordered the 1bbl pitch, split it between both batches, and harvested the remainder rest for future use (I do 11g batches). I hate making starters

 

[secretlevel]

To reduce DMS, collect only 4.5 gallons (17 l) in your kettle. Boil down to about 4 gallons (15 l) and then at knock out (with flame off), top up with 1 gallon (3.8 l) of chilled sterile water (a gallon jug of grocery-store water is best). This should bring your wort to 185°–195°F (85–90°C) and will get your wort out of the temperature danger zone where DMS precursors can redevelop.

Going off the original Highland Park recipe, are you guys all boiling for 90 minutes? Also is anyone topping off with cold water to get out of DMS zone?

 

[cuda6pak]

I think it mostly depends on your setup. If your setup allows quick chilling and high boil-off rate, you should be fine with 60min boil and chill to 185F before whirlpooling. I have a 10% boil-off rate and have done plenty of 60min 100% pilsner brews without any DMS issues.

 

[secretlevel]

I think it mostly depends on your setup. If your setup allows quick chilling and high boil-off rate, you should be fine with 60min boil and chill to 185F before whirlpooling. I have a 10% boil-off rate and have done plenty of 60min 100% pilsner brews without any DMS issues.

I use a wort chiller so I think it's about 10 minutes until I'm at around 185F?

 

[cuda6pak]

For those that have done a few iterations of this recipe, or similar. Where have you landed on hotside bittering charges for amounts/time, if any?

Based on my experience of the second batch, the intense bitterness pickup from the DH on top of the 28IBU charge at the beginning was unexpected with 34/70 vs ale yeast. Debating whether to do a small 10IBU noble-ish charge with 10 or 20min left, or just do all WP/DH. Or maybe use some American Noble hops to blend in a bit of lager character with the citra/mosaic WP and DH bomb? Will be using Andech's this third time around.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Both batches I've done were all WP/DH and I still had bitterness issues. Next time I'm going to shift more to the DH from the WP and hop less overall.

 

[cuda6pak]

I wonder what the connection is between the lager yeast and large DH charge bitterness pickup, as compared to say a Hazy Pale? I would think with the higher finishing pH of lagers vs ales that you would actually get less bitterness pickup from the DH? Obviously the water profile is quite different as well.

Maybe I'll lower the WP charge temp and/or sub in some citra/mosaic American Noble as well. Planning on this one being all Citra/Mosaic Lupomax and American Noble.

 

[secretlevel]

How much do you guys throw in at WP and DH? The SoCal Pils recipe recommends a pretty significant whirlpool of 4oz but no bittering charges.

It could be the water profile as well, in my case the water profile for pilsners is a little heavier on sulfate than chloride.

 

[cuda6pak]

The DH from the OP/SoCal recipe isn't really that big, at least compared to modern hazies. But several of us have noticed a significant increase in bitterness post-DH.

I've used fairly soft "standard" lager profiles for both of my attempts. I wonder how HPB treats their water for this beer? My next attempt I'm going to keep to a similar profile to see where it lands with the Andech's strain. May be worth doing a second attempt with a slightly higher chloride/sulfate ratio, but not to hazy levels, if the bitterness is still too pronounced.

 

[breweer]

Brewed this up on 9/19 and am about to dry hop now. Used Enigma at FO and will be tossing a couple ounces in for DH, can't wait to report back!

 

[deadwolfbones]

Brewed this up on 9/19 and am about to dry hop now. Used Enigma at FO and will be tossing a couple ounces in for DH, can't wait to report back!

Awesome, keep us in the loop!

 

[breweer]

Turned out delicious!

 

[secretlevel]

Turned out delicious!

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[breweer]

I think there's an error with the image

 

[deadwolfbones]

Looks beautiful!

 

[deadwolfbones]

The DH from the OP/SoCal recipe isn't really that big, at least compared to modern hazies. But several of us have noticed a significant increase in bitterness post-DH.

I've used fairly soft "standard" lager profiles for both of my attempts. I wonder how HPB treats their water for this beer? My next attempt I'm going to keep to a similar profile to see where it lands with the Andech's strain. May be worth doing a second attempt with a slightly higher chloride/sulfate ratio, but not to hazy levels, if the bitterness is still too pronounced.

I'd strongly encourage emailing Bob Kunz to ask about the water. He's very friendly/receptive, in my experience.

 

[hopfenstopfen]

I'm looking for some input on dry hopping practices for this style. What has worked for you so far?

I have a batch of a Pivo Pils clone that just finished fermentation. The recipe in BYO calls for dry hopping at day 4. So, I would think there is definitely yeast present and very likely some fermentation processes still going on. I'm inclined to crash this thing for several days to drop as much yeast as possible, then bring it back up to 60F and add dry hops.

 

[drewmuni8]

I'm looking for some input on dry hopping practices for this style. What has worked for you so far?

I have a batch of a Pivo Pils clone that just finished fermentation. The recipe in BYO calls for dry hopping at day 4. So, I would think there is definitely yeast present and very likely some fermentation processes still going on. I'm inclined to crash this thing for several days to drop as much yeast as possible, then bring it back up to 60F and add dry hops.

I just made a second batch and did this, 58F rather than 60 though. Still not getting the kind of aroma i want but i think i might need to move some hops from WP to DH.

More general ?'s
- What is the percentage of hops folks are using for their whirlpool versus their dryhop? In total i used 4 oz of hops for both (2.5 gallon batch, double for you 5 gallon'ers) but split it and went 2oz in whirlpool and 2 oz in the dry hop. I'm thinking of going 1.5/2.5 or 1/3.
- Has anyone tried a Czech yeast for this? I've been using 34/70 and want to try Imperial and know they have a German and Czech strain.

Cheers!

 

[Nick Poggetti]

Here's my latest go, using some 2020 Nelson. Notes at the end about what I'd like to change for next time.

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: Pilsner
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 10 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 11.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.045
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.052
Final Gravity: 1.011
ABV (standard): 5.29%
IBU (tinseth): 24.89
SRM (morey): 2.72
Mash pH: 5.3

FERMENTABLES:
20 lb - Pilsen Malt 2-Row (100%)

HOPS:
2 oz - CZ Saaz, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.2, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 12.72
5 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Whirlpool for 0 min at 170 °F, IBU: 12.17
6 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Strike, Temp: 150 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 12 gal

YEAST:
White Labs - German Lager Yeast WLP830
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 76.5%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 50 - 55 F
Fermentation Temp: 50 F
Diacetyl Rest @ 68 for a few days
Lager at kegerator temps for a while, I think I let it go 3 weeks before I tasted it.
Pitch Rate: 1.75 (M cells / ml / deg P)

PRIMING:
Method: Spunding
I fermented and served from the same keg, floating dip tubes are my jam.

WaterProfile: Yellow Balanced - Bru'n Water

Things I love about this beer

• The head/foam is the best I've ever had on any beer I've made. Super proud. It lasts a long time, too. I think the spunding really helped with it.
• Super easy to drink. Clean, no diacetyl that I can sense, pretty darn tasty.
• I've got two full kegs worth just waiting to be drunk.

Things I want to change/tweak for next time

• It finished a little sweet. I'm going to mash lower, and try to dry it out a little more next time. Also change the water profile to "Bru'n Water - Yellow Dry"
• I didn't quite hit the West Coast Pilsner style. More hops next time!!!! I think both bittering and aroma for sure.

 

[hopfenstopfen]

Here's my latest go, using some 2020 Nelson. Notes at the end about what I'd like to change for next time.

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: Pilsner
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 10 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 11.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.045
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.052
Final Gravity: 1.011
ABV (standard): 5.29%
IBU (tinseth): 24.89
SRM (morey): 2.72
Mash pH: 5.3

FERMENTABLES:
20 lb - Pilsen Malt 2-Row (100%)

HOPS:
2 oz - CZ Saaz, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.2, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 12.72
5 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Whirlpool for 0 min at 170 °F, IBU: 12.17
6 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Strike, Temp: 150 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 12 gal

YEAST:
White Labs - German Lager Yeast WLP830
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 76.5%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 50 - 55 F
Fermentation Temp: 50 F
Diacetyl Rest @ 68 for a few days
Lager at kegerator temps for a while, I think I let it go 3 weeks before I tasted it.
Pitch Rate: 1.75 (M cells / ml / deg P)

PRIMING:
Method: Spunding
I fermented and served from the same keg, floating dip tubes are my jam.

WaterProfile: Yellow Balanced - Bru'n Water

View attachment 705279


Things I love about this beer

• The head/foam is the best I've ever had on any beer I've made. Super proud. It lasts a long time, too. I think the spunding really helped with it.
• Super easy to drink. Clean, no diacetyl that I can sense, pretty darn tasty.
• I've got two full kegs worth just waiting to be drunk.

Things I want to change/tweak for next time

• It finished a little sweet. I'm going to mash lower, and try to dry it out a little more next time. Also change the water profile to "Bru'n Water - Yellow Dry"
• I didn't quite hit the West Coast Pilsner style. More hops next time!!!! I think both bittering and aroma for sure.

Nice! Any tasting notes? How'd the 2020 Nelson come out?
Have you had the pilsner featuring Nelson by Modern Times? Man, I loved that beer.

 

[Nick Poggetti]

Nice! Any tasting notes? How'd the 2020 Nelson come out?
Have you had the pilsner featuring Nelson by Modern Times? Man, I loved that beer.

A few tasting notes: Light, grainy/pilsneryish (like that made up word?) Some residual sweetness, a little too much in my opinion as noted... Want to dry it out a little more and hopefully 'crisp' it up a little. Clean lagerish character, no diacetyl (maybe just a tiny hint in the foam, but barely). Very minor fruitiness I think coming from the Nelson.

I think I'm going to up the carbonation a little.

The 2020 nelson is delicious. This is my second batch with it...first being a 9% hazy IPA. See some more info on that bad boy. Very proud of that one.

I have not had any of that Modern Times. The only Nelson beers I've had this year with the 2020 crop are some of Cellarmaker's Double Mt. Nelson, which I found my IPA came pretty close to that beer. Also a Humble Sea Pilsner, which I was hoping to try and come close to with this pilsner as well. Unfortunately I didn't get too close... I mentioned I was kinda far off from the west coast style, I think I need to up the hops, shift that whirlpool to flameout maybe?

All in all, a very very good beer.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Here's my latest go, using some 2020 Nelson. Notes at the end about what I'd like to change for next time.

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: Pilsner
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 10 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 11.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.045
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.052
Final Gravity: 1.011
ABV (standard): 5.29%
IBU (tinseth): 24.89
SRM (morey): 2.72
Mash pH: 5.3

FERMENTABLES:
20 lb - Pilsen Malt 2-Row (100%)

HOPS:
2 oz - CZ Saaz, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.2, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 12.72
5 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Whirlpool for 0 min at 170 °F, IBU: 12.17
6 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Strike, Temp: 150 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 12 gal

YEAST:
White Labs - German Lager Yeast WLP830
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 76.5%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 50 - 55 F
Fermentation Temp: 50 F
Diacetyl Rest @ 68 for a few days
Lager at kegerator temps for a while, I think I let it go 3 weeks before I tasted it.
Pitch Rate: 1.75 (M cells / ml / deg P)

PRIMING:
Method: Spunding
I fermented and served from the same keg, floating dip tubes are my jam.

WaterProfile: Yellow Balanced - Bru'n Water

View attachment 705279


Things I love about this beer

• The head/foam is the best I've ever had on any beer I've made. Super proud. It lasts a long time, too. I think the spunding really helped with it.
• Super easy to drink. Clean, no diacetyl that I can sense, pretty darn tasty.
• I've got two full kegs worth just waiting to be drunk.

Things I want to change/tweak for next time

• It finished a little sweet. I'm going to mash lower, and try to dry it out a little more next time. Also change the water profile to "Bru'n Water - Yellow Dry"
• I didn't quite hit the West Coast Pilsner style. More hops next time!!!! I think both bittering and aroma for sure.

Beautiful beer, man. I really need to work on another version, myself.

 

[dirty_martini]

Just came across this thread as I’ve been playing around with this. I didn’t go full west coast pilsner, but I took a little more delicate approach. If you’re in California, I would compare it more to Enegren Lagertha, which is a very traditional pils with Saaz as it’s core, but adds a little mosaic so you get that classic saaz flavor, but a little of that mosaic berry and citrus that surprises you. Here’s my most recent recipe:

SG 1.048
FG 1.010
5% abv
35 ibus
98% bestmalz pils
2% weyermann melanoidin
Mash @150F
.5oz mt hood 90min
.75oz mt hood 30 min
2.8oz mt hood WP 20min @ 170
2oz Idaho 7 DH @ 55F 3 day
.5oz mt hood DH @ 55F days
omega Bayern lager (Augustiner)
Started ferment @48F. After 2 days raised to 52F. Once I got past 50% attenuation I raised to 62 to finish and for D-rest.
Went more German water vs the very soft czech water profile. Ended up with around this estimate.
ca 66
Mg 4
Na 0
Cl 56
So4 100

came out very German pils like, but then the Idaho 7 stonefruit and black tea tannin comes through. It’s a subtle character but that’s what I wanted.

A little note on Timbo. I’ve known Bob for over 10 years and talked to him about his west coast pilsners. When I asked him about Timbo he said they dry hop it at the same rate as their IPAs, so it’s 3lbs or more/bbl. If you want to replicate Timbo, I would plan on probably closer to 7-8oz dry hop per 5g batch. Also, I know that Bob is a big fan of German Saphir hops, so I would guess that’s the German hop that’s in the boil

 

[dirty_martini]

I don’t know what it is about the Augustiner strain but I have made the worst lagers with that yeast. I’ve used the Wyeast, White Labs, and Inperial versions and they’ve all produced terrible beers. That being said a ton of people use and love it and it’s probably the 2nd most popular commercial lager strain for craft breweries in the US so I don’t really know what to say. I pitch a ton of yeast, oxygenate with a stone, add yeast nutrient, pitch cold and let warm slightly, have dialed water profiles, step mash, blah blah blah. Gotta have close to 40 lager brews by now. I get lots of sulfur every time. Never had sulfur issues with any other yeast. I don’t ever warm my lager fermentation’s past 54 other than Augustiner. It definitely likes it warmer than most strains which is why a lot of craft breweries use it.

Imperial sells the Andechs strain for pros as Pilgrimage I believe.

I can’t say enough good things about it. I don’t really have a big desire to try many more. I just put some East Coast Yeast Kellbier on a stir plate but after that I probably will just go back to using the Andechs strain. Just found a Homebrew shop in CO that had three vials of Inland Islands version of it so I nabbed them.

Gave a pitch to a buddy who was headed brewer at a top 50 US craft brewery. Moved on and starting his own place. Was set on Augustiner until he tried the pitch I gave him on a small pilot batch. Was blown away with how clean and soft and balanced it was and how fast it cleared.

i love the Augustiner strain. I used both imperial harvest and omega Bayern (I prefer the omega). Never had any sulfur. Never had a diacetyl issue. Just clean lagers with every fermentation. I always start cold around 48 for the first 2 days just until I see activity. Then raise to 52 until I get to 50% attenuation. Then raise a couple degrees a day until I hit 62 where I hold at least 3 days and to a D-test. I keep it there until I pass, and step the temp down 3 degrees a day until I get down to the mid 30s where it will finish lagering. A friend of mine is a brewer that’s won numerous medals at both GABF and WBC and that’s the schedule he gave me to follow. He said he doesn’t like crashing as the yeast will continue to clean up on its slow decent.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Just came across this thread as I’ve been playing around with this. I didn’t go full west coast pilsner, but I took a little more delicate approach. If you’re in California, I would compare it more to Enegren Lagertha, which is a very traditional pils with Saaz as it’s core, but adds a little mosaic so you get that classic saaz flavor, but a little of that mosaic berry and citrus that surprises you.

Nice, I love that Enegren!