German Pils Bo Berry Pils (West Coast Pilsner)

[Nick Poggetti]

I think I'm figuring some things out. Since I used Amarillo, my beer was pretty soft as it has low co-humulone (21-24%). Some of the traditional German hops and classic American bittering hops are much higher in this property, which really adds that bittering "bite". While IBUs are based on AA% right now, they should also be taking co-humulone into account. Columbus is a better bittering hop (28-35%), as is Apollo (24-28%).

German varieties that Highland park use are Saphir (12-17%), and Sterling (21-28%!) are used in higher amounts than the Amarillo I used, so I think they'll provide more co-humulone and thus more bitteriness. At least that's my theory. Will report back.

This is pretty interesting. On a similar topic but different style, I've found in my west coast IPAs that getting my 70-100 ibus in the hotside from CTZ, Cascade, Centennial give the best results when paired with the new school hops.

 

[Broothru]

There’s absolutely a difference in the “type” of bitterness. It’s not purely a IBU factor.

A recent craftbeer and brewing podcast with the headbrewer from Slice talked about west coast IPA and how if he used classic C hood, his bittering rate was closer to 40ish IBUs, while with more modern fruitier hops, he was higher at 50-60. The classic hop bitterness was a bit sharper and more aggressive, even at lower IBUs.

My last batch, I used cascade in the boil because I was out of my lager hops, and there’s a more resiny bitterness. Generally, my preference is to use a classic bittering hop for the first 20IBU addition. I love summit, but warrior or magnum would be good choices. Plus, you generally only need about .25oz/7g. Then later in the boil use the “lager” hops. Sterling is like a more citrusy saaz, saphir is super delicate and floral. Pinthouse brewing here in Texas which won a GABF silver for their version of Timbo has been using hallertau Blanc for their book additions. I really think any classic lager hops or their American derivatives like mt hood, liberty, vanguard, etc would work. It could also be a way to use some of the modern German varieties like Blanc, Huell melon, mandarina, or Callista to have a blend of classic lager character with modern flavors that will work well with the big ipa dry hop. And with using those in the 30min and whirlpool, you’re getting a more delicate, finer bitterness addition.

Good insight. I can't help but believe there's a lot more to "perceived bitterness" and total IBUs then is generally recognized. Co-humulone percentages may indeed be the key to understanding hop burn/hop creep, as well as perceived bitterness.

Also, two thumbs up on Summit, Magnum or Warrior as go-to bittering hops. All do a great job in very low usage amounts. Hallertau Magnum is my first choice for all my Continental lagers, and also works great for early additions in just about any New World/North American ales.

 

[fuzzybee]

I was thinking of brewing this with Barke Pilsner and just Centennial hops. Has anybody tried this?

 

[dirty_martini]

I was thinking of brewing this with Barke Pilsner and just Centennial hops. Has anybody tried this?

I haven’t, but I’ve had cascade and centennial Pilsners in the past. I did a batch with cascade as my boil hops since I was out of my classic lager hops and the bitterness was much more resiny. Based on that, I would just back down on the IBUs a bit to around 30 and I think it will be great.

 

[hopfenstopfen]

I was thinking of brewing this with Barke Pilsner and just Centennial hops. Has anybody tried this?

Have not tried, but can say that I tasted Bell's Cold Hearted a cold IPA they released in a mixed box last winter/spring. No idea on the actual recipe but it was pretty clearly a centennial beer which worked very nicely on a crisp, lagerish background. Your idea sound good to me. If I were you though, it would be awful tempting to add a pinch of galaxy in the dry hop like in light hearted unless you are certain you have high-quality centennial.

 

[fuzzybee]

Have not tried, but can say that I tasted Bell's Cold Hearted a cold IPA they released in a mixed box last winter/spring. No idea on the actual recipe but it was pretty clearly a centennial beer which worked very nicely on a crisp, lagerish background. Your idea sound good to me. If I were you though, it would be awful tempting to add a pinch of galaxy in the dry hop like in light hearted unless you are certain you have high-quality centennial.

Thanks! I don't have any Galaxy, but I do have Sabro, Helga, Columbus, and Citra. Which do y'all think would work best with the Centennial?

 

[deadwolfbones]

Centennial + Citra is real nice.

 

[deadwolfbones]

I entered my latest attempt at this (Sultana + El Dorado) into a local pro-am competition and it advanced to the selection round but ultimately wasn't chosen to be brewed by a pro brewery. It was the best-rated of the three entries I submitted, but my much worse-rated altbier (which I agree wasn't great) got chosen by Deschutes, lol.

Anyway, I think it's great. Will def be making it again and experimenting with more DH combos.

 

[Andre3000]

What's everyone's preferred yeast? I've been doing a ton of split batch pilsners with various Escarpment vs diamond and W34/70 and every time liquid yeast beats dry hands down in my opinion, though, I'd give w34/70 the edge over diamond.

I want to give this recipe a go again now that I've really ironed out my pilsner attenuation issues.

 

[deadwolfbones]

I've only used 34/70 (2x packets in 4.5 gals, usually).

 

[dirty_martini]

What's everyone's preferred yeast? I've been doing a ton of split batch pilsners with various Escarpment vs diamond and W34/70 and every time liquid yeast beats dry hands down in my opinion, though, I'd give w34/70 the edge over diamond.

I want to give this recipe a go again now that I've really ironed out my pilsner attenuation issues.

I’ve done it with liquid and dry. My liquid lager yeast of choice is omega Bayern, which is the Augustiner strain. But I’ve come to learn that for this specific recipe (and cold ipa too), 34/70 is the superior yeast. And before you focus on dry or liquid being superior, know that the majority of pro brewers using 34/70 are using the fermentis dry.

 

[dirty_martini]

In case anyone missed this, a west coast Pilsner round table featuring Bob from highland park along with brewers from Firestone and humble sea. One thing i took from this, Timbos boil hops have switched from sterling or Saphir to adeena exclusively now.

 

[Andre3000]

I’ve done it with liquid and dry. My liquid lager yeast of choice is omega Bayern, which is the Augustiner strain. But I’ve come to learn that for this specific recipe (and cold ipa too), 34/70 is the superior yeast. And before you focus on dry or liquid being superior, know that the majority of pro brewers using 34/70 are using the fermentis dry.

Yes they are. I have heard it first hand from them. However I've done several split batches between liquid and dry and liquid always comes out on top in my opinion. However the w34/70 vs Isar was quite close.

 

[nyer]

I made the timbo clone on Monday and cooled to fermentation temp in my chamber until Tuesday. I made a starter for the 34/70 3 times and pitched Tuesday morning, by the afternoon it was already going. By Wednesday it was cranking and this morning it was already slowing down. It already went from 1053 to 1012, that's crazy for a lager yeast fermenting at 56. Easily the fastest lager fermentation I've ever had. Dry hops are going in tomorrow.

 

[nyer]

Just kegged this and it smells amazing, I can't wait for it to carb up.

 

[nyer]

I've only had this in the keg on gas for a week and it's already superb. This is such a nice clean easy drinking beer, it smells and tastes like an excellent ipa except it has less bitterness and it's dry and crisp. I'm thinking this is my favorite beer I've made in over 20 years of homebrewing. I believe this one will earn a permanent position in my kegerator.

 

[dirty_martini]

I've only had this in the keg on gas for a week and it's already superb. This is such a nice clean easy drinking beer, it smells and tastes like an excellent ipa except it has less bitterness and it's dry and crisp. I'm thinking this is my favorite beer I've made in over 20 years of homebrewing. I believe this one will earn a permanent position in my kegerator.

Did you make any tweaks to it or did you follow the recipe as written?

 

[nyer]

Did you make any tweaks to it or did you follow the recipe as written?

Exactly as written and I wouldn't change a thing.

 

[nyer]

I have made a lot of beer in the last 20 years and I have to say this one is the best. It's also one of the best beers I've ever tasted.

 

[Broothru]

This is near the top of my “to brew” list, and the OP recipe calls for WLP830 or other 34/70 yeast. It’s a workhorse for sure, but I’m also planning a split brew between WLP835x (Andechs) and Imperial L26 which I just found out is also Andechs.

I’m looking to see if there are significant differences between the yeasts rather than focusing on the beer. But I’m curious what people who have brewed this beer think about Andechs as a yeast for Timbo. My experience with Andechs is that it’s a great yeast that balances malt and hops, attenuates well and drops clear with time. Maybe not as dry as 34/70 or as strong a fermenter but (right now) it’s at the top of my 4 favorite lager yeasts.

 

[Ulisses4677]

5.6 abv
95% gambrinus pils
5 % carapils
Ibu 40
Magnum
Riwaka
Yeast 34/70
Fermentation traditional lager

 

[dirty_martini]

View attachment 820668
5.6 abv
95% gambrinus pils
5 % carapils
Ibu 40
Magnum
Riwaka
Yeast 34/70
Fermentation traditional lager

Pretty color. I’m sure with that Gambrinus pils it dried out nicely.

Any riwaka in the boil, or just dry hop? I recently listened to a podcast with a New Zealand brewer and they said riwaka really shines on the hotside. Kinda like idaho7 seems to be better hit side than dry hopping.

 

[Ulisses4677]

Pretty color. I’m sure with that Gambrinus pils it dried out nicely.

Any riwaka in the boil, or just dry hop? I recently listened to a podcast with a New Zealand brewer and they said riwaka really shines on the hotside. Kinda like idaho7 seems to be better hit side than dry hopping.

Dry hop and hot side. At 30 min and whirlpool. The dry hop was all riwaka. I would be careful on the hot side it gives you a sharp bitterness that lingers, that’s why I used magnum for most of my ibus.

 

[Ulisses4677]

Dry hop and hot side. At 30 min and whirlpool. The dry hop was all riwaka. I would be careful on the hot side it gives you a sharp bitterness that lingers, that’s why I used magnum for most of my ibus.

Yes the color is from gambrinus it attenuates nicely so I mash at 152 knowing that gambrinus will dry out the beer. I want some body to stand up to the hops.

 

[ba-brewer]

This is near the top of my “to brew” list, and the OP recipe calls for WLP830 or other 34/70 yeast. It’s a workhorse for sure, but I’m also planning a split brew between WLP835x (Andechs) and Imperial L26 which I just found out is also Andechs.

I’m looking to see if there are significant differences between the yeasts rather than focusing on the beer. But I’m curious what people who have brewed this beer think about Andechs as a yeast for Timbo. My experience with Andechs is that it’s a great yeast that balances malt and hops, attenuates well and drops clear with time. Maybe not as dry as 34/70 or as strong a fermenter but (right now) it’s at the top of my 4 favorite lager yeasts.

I have not made this recipe exactly but I have done pilsner mosaic smash in the spirit of the recipe using standard hop pellets and WLP835 that have turned out well. Not sure if it is the yeast or a 3/4 month lager but the bitterness is quite smooth.

I think S-23 or S-189 with their fruity esters would be good with this recipe.

 

[dirty_martini]

Dry hop and hot side. At 30 min and whirlpool. The dry hop was all riwaka. I would be careful on the hot side it gives you a sharp bitterness that lingers, that’s why I used magnum for most of my ibus.

The brewer mentioned it more as late addition book hops and whirlpool, but said it ms a hop that really shines on the hot side. For the most part, those hops are only late addition anyway. I’d always rather bitter with magnum, summit, or warrior if I need a bittering addition.

 

[Ulisses4677]

The brewer mentioned it more as late addition book hops and whirlpool, but said it ms a hop that really shines on the hot side. For the most part, those hops are only late addition anyway. I’d always rather bitter with magnum, summit, or warrior if I need a bittering addition.

Yeah I’m on the same boat brother.

 

[deadwolfbones]

So, took my Timbo clone to Homebrew Con and served it at Club Night. Was one of my club's top movers. Really happy with how it came out overall, just lags the real thing a bit when it comes to aroma. Might be my system, might be that HPB gets to do hop selection. Will def keep making this beer!

 

[dirty_martini]

So, took my Timbo clone to Homebrew Con and served it at Club Night. Was one of my club's top movers. Really happy with how it came out overall, just lags the real thing a bit when it comes to aroma. Might be my system, might be that HPB gets to do hop selection. Will def keep making this beer!

It will always struggle to match pros aroma simply because they have the ability to package with much less dissolved oxygen than we can as homebrewers.

 

[deadwolfbones]

It will always struggle to match pros aroma simply because they have the ability to package with much less dissolved oxygen than we can as homebrewers.

I'm fermenting in a keg and transferring in a closed loop to a keg purged with ferm gas. So it should be about as low DO as you can do without spending a lot of money. But there are always places to optimize.