Bitter aftertaste in my pales. Is it my water?

[beerkench]

I'm trying to nail the cause of the bitter aftertaste I'm getting in my pales and IPA's. Even if I drop the IBU's in Beersmith to around 30 for a APA, I'm getting this dry bitterness that's killing most of the flavour. Letting the beers ride doesn't do much and as the beer matures the flavour lessens but the bitterness is the same.
A few things I would like to add before I paste in my water profile:

I don't have a pH meter although I use Brun' water to estimate my pH.
I add around 2-3ml of lactic acid plus 2 grams of Gypsum for a 6 gallon batch which according to Brun'water sets the mash pH at around 5.5-5.6.
I have read the primer and have bought some distilled water (haven't brewed with it yet), but would love to fix this problem without having to buy water as it isn't cheap in Sweden where I live.
I have a Braumeister so have no problem getting the right mash temps.

Here's my water report:
Ph 8.1
Calcium (Ca) 21,0
Magnesium (Mg) 8,8
Sodium (Na) 36,0
Sulfate (SO4) 16,0
Chloride (Cl) 46,0
Potassium (K)
Iron (Fe) 0,0
Nitrate (NO3) 17,0
Bicarbonate (HCO3) 93,0
Carbonate (CO3) 0,0

Some of my thoughts are that mash pH is too high and that I tannins are being extracted or that mash pH is too high and the bicarbonates are not being driven off and are affecting flavour. Or both.
I'm puzzled though as a mash pH of 5.5-5.6 although on the high side, can't be so high right?

If I were to add even more acid would it affect taste?

Any thoughts?

 

[ajdelange]

With all the discussion of water going on in this thread many people get the impression that if the hops aren't right in a beer that the problem is either caused by the water or can be fixed by doing something to the water. As an example of this many would conclude that your beers would have 'muted hop expression' because you have a high chloride to sulfate ratio. Others would tell you can expect insipid hops simply because the sulfate is so low.

The truth of the matter is that most of the way hops are perceived in a beer is a function of which varieties of hops are used, how much is used and when they are added to the kettle. High kettle pH does result in more hops bittering being extracted but 5.5 - 5.6 should not result in that much more than say 5.4 - 5.5. I suppose, given that you are using brewing software produced this side of the pond with malt models from this side of the pond, it is possible that malts produced on your side of the pond might result in considerable prediction errors but again I doubt that this is enough to produce the problems you describe. Nevertheless with alkalinity of 1.5 mVal/L you would probably need some acid for an APA unless you are using a fair amount of fairly dark crystal malt in the grist.

I would focus my attention on the hops schedule. Avoid high alpha hops and use late additions and/or dry hopping to enhance flavor without running the bitterness up.

Also note that if calculators are bad at estimating mash pH they are really bad at estimating IBU and that IBU are really only valuable in the sense that they 'adequately represent the bitterness of beer'. Note that this says nothing about the quality of the bitterness.

 

[WayFrae]

What was your hop schedule like for this beer?

 

[Hermit]

I don't have a pH meter although I use Brun' water to estimate my pH.

Since you are going by estimates only try and target a lower pH next time and see if there is a difference.

 

[beerkench]

Here's a typical recipe for a 6 gallon (approx) APA:

Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
4.00 ml Lactic Acid (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 1 -
2.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 -
4.00 kg Pale Malt (Weyermann) (6.5 EBC) Grain 3 78.9 %
0.50 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 4 9.9 %
0.32 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 30L (59.1 EBC) Grain 5 6.3 %
0.25 kg Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 6 4.9 %
7.00 g Warrior [15.70 %] - First Wort 85.0 min Hop 7 12.1 IBUs
7.00 g Warrior [15.70 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 8 8.0 IBUs
10.00 g Citra [14.70 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 9 5.0 IBUs
30.00 g Citra [14.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min Hop 10 16.0 IBUs
30.00 g Citra [14.70 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg BRY-97 American West Coast Yeast (Danstar #) Yeast 12 -
56.00 g Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.054 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.2 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.1 %
Bitterness: 41.1 IBUs Calories: 499.8 kcal/l
Est Color: 13.3 EBC

It's not just this recipe though. As said, all APA and IPA's are suffering the same.

 

[beerkench]

I will go for a lower pH next time. I'm going to brew with distilled water too to eliminate the water.

 

[WayFrae]

Maybe your water has increased alkalinity since the time you got the report. I think the distilled water is a good idea. Start from a clean slate.

 

[mabrungard]

Many of the brewers that I've interfaced with, have found that 5.4 to 5.5 is about the highest they like their mash pH to be for producing pleasing flavor. Possibly you are pushing that limit a bit too high. Given your relatively modest bicarbonate level, you are in little danger of incurring flavor effects from an acid addition. Go ahead and take the pH down to around 5.4 for hoppy beers.

One thing you don't mention is your sparging water. Are you acidifying it to neutralize the alkalinity prior to use? That bicarbonate level would be enough to extract some tannins if that sparging water wasn't treated.

 

[J-Drew]

+1 on checking your sparging water.

 

[beerkench]

+1 on checking your sparging water.

I only need to sparge with 5L and add add around .3ml acid to it worked out according to Brunwater.

 

[ajdelange]

So it appears that he has used lactic acid in his mash and sparge beyond which while it is true that lower range of mash pH results in better flavor profiles the dimension is usually that of 'brighter' flavors rather than the elimination of harsh hops bitterness. Additionally given the absence of sulfate it is pretty clear here that the water isn't the problem. OTOH we see lots of very high alpha hops. That is very probably where the problem lies. While I'm sure the citric flavors of the Citra are definitely wanted I'd try brewing this with lower alpha acid hops at lower hopping levels, i.e. working up, at least until the problem is sorted out.

 

[mchrispen]

One other possibility, and perhaps a last bit of tuning is changing yeast. I tried very hard to like BRY-97 and finally returned to US-05 for dry yeast. I found BRY-97 floc'd heavily and seemed to mute hop expression compared to US-05/WY001. It also needed some rousing to ensure complete attenuation. Needed to dry hop after the beer dropped clear. I will say it performs better around the 3rd generation, but the flavor shifts a bit.

Not saying this is THE problem, but might be contributing.

 

[beerkench]

So it appears that he has used lactic acid in his mash and sparge beyond which while it is true that lower range of mash pH results in better flavor profiles the dimension is usually that of 'brighter' flavors rather than the elimination of harsh hops bitterness. Additionally given the absence of sulfate it is pretty clear here that the water isn't the problem. OTOH we see lots of very high alpha hops. That is very probably where the problem lies. While I'm sure the citric flavors of the Citra are definitely wanted I'd try brewing this with lower alpha acid hops at lower hopping levels, i.e. working up, at least until the problem is sorted out.

But when I see other recipes for APA's and IPA's, they too are packed with high alpha U.S hops right to the end. Except for cascade, can you recommend any other low alpha U.S. style hops?
I bought the IPA book and all most of the recipes are high alpha including flame out hops etc.
Maybe my higher pH is resulting in more utilization and tannin extract from the hops too.
Beersmith rated the recipe I posted at 41 which isn't too high right? Even if it is unaccurate it can't be so far out to provide harsh bitterness.

 

[beerkench]

Additionally given the absence of sulfate it is pretty clear here that the water isn't the problem.

I did actually try a few batches with much more gypsum which made the bitterness even harsher.

 

[beerkench]

Ok here's my suggestion for the IPA I'll be brewing tomorrow using distilled water for the first time:
Citra, Nelson, Warrior IPA2
American IPA
Type: All Grain Date: 26 Jul 2014
Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l Brewer:
Boil Size: 30.16 l Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 85 min Equipment: Braumeister 20l
End of Boil Volume 25.91 l Brewhouse Efficiency: 77.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 22.00 l Est Mash Efficiency 85.0 %
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 30.0
Taste Notes:
Ingredients

Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
4.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 1 -
2.00 g Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 -
5.40 kg Pale Malt (Weyermann) (6.5 EBC) Grain 3 90.3 %
0.30 kg Crystal Malt - 60L (Thomas Fawcett) (118.2 EBC) Grain 4 5.0 %
0.28 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 30L (59.1 EBC) Grain 5 4.7 %
10.00 g Warrior [15.70 %] - First Wort 85.0 min Hop 6 16.2 IBUs
17.00 g Warrior [15.70 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7 18.1 IBUs
0.30 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 8 -
15.00 g Citra [13.90 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 10.0 IBUs
15.00 g Nelson Sauvin [12.30 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 10 8.1 IBUs
25.00 g Citra [13.90 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
25.00 g Nelson Sauvin [12.30 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [50.28 ml] Yeast 13 -
25.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
25.00 g Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.063 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.062 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.6 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 6.3 %
Bitterness: 52.4 IBUs Calories: 587.8 kcal/l
Est Color: 18.4 EBC

Anything that sticks out?

 

[Rivenin]

how cold are you doing the whirlpool?
you still extract AA from the whirlpool (not as much as a boil of course) but the hotter you are, the more come out... so if you're doing a 30 minute hop stand right at flame out.... that could be causing it as well with the overly bitter tastes.

 

[beerkench]

I do hop stands at 167f

 

[beerkench]

I'm gonna report back when I've brewed with distilled water. See what happens.

 

[ajdelange]

But when I see other recipes for APA's and IPA's, they too are packed with high alpha U.S hops right to the end. Except for cascade, can you recommend any other low alpha U.S. style hops?

I'm really the last person to ask about this style of beer. I don't like it because of the nasty hops. So no, I cannot recommend another hop.

That said, I have had IPA's in this style which are quite bitter and packed with hops flavor. But the bitterness is not harsh (his sulfate is 47 mg/L). He uses extracts (hop extract, that is) for those beers in which he wants a lot of flavor/aroma. And he does use Citra (the customers love it - don't know whether he is using flowers, pellets or extract for that).

I bought the IPA book and all most of the recipes are high alpha including flame out hops etc.

I suppose the first question should be "Have you had beers by others in this style that you like?" If so I'd suggest that you talk to the brewers of those beers and ask about hops schedules, cultivars, IBU and, yes, water treatment too.

Maybe my higher pH is resulting in more utilization and tannin extract from the hops too.

If you are running kettle pH of 5.6 you are going to extract more bitterness than at 5.1, no doubt about it. As this is at issue for you you should check mash and kettle pH.

Beersmith rated the recipe I posted at 41 which isn't too high right? Even if it is unaccurate it can't be so far out to provide harsh bitterness.

That's way to bitter for me personally unless it is the fine bitterness of noble hops but I emphasize that this is personal taste. And yes, a calculated IBU level of 41 could result in anything from 20 to 80 in the actual beer though factor of two error would be unusual. You don't know your utilization and you don't know the true alpha levels of the hops. While, in the usual case, the package labeling is optimistic (bittering tends to diminish with storage) I have had beers that calculate 30 and taste way more bitter than that.

 

[matthewmurray]

I had the same problem with my first several beers- astringent hop flavor. My problem was solved when I realized that my hop storage was terrible and all my hops had become oxidized. I threw them out, bought new hops, and all is well.

 

[beerkench]

Thanks for your advice guys. I had a brew day today using distilled water for the first time, and I'm looking forward to tasting the result. I noticed that the wort was much smoother than my tap water wort so I'm hopefully on my way to solving the bitterness.

I also had a 'Doh, why didn't I think of that earlier moment' today as I brew in the old milking room on a farm and noticed that the piping is really old. Tasted the water direct (Yes brewed in there lots of times but never thought to actually taste the water in there Doh!) and it does have quite a metallic taste to it. Wonder if this could add to harshness?
Maybe my tapwater is ok afterall it's just that I would need to make sure it runs a while before I fill the mash tun.
Will post the results when the beer's finished.

 

[The_Glue]

I had a bitter aftertaste problem for all my beers until a started using Star-San. (so it was probably an infection in my case)

 

[beerkench]

I had a bitter aftertaste problem for all my beers until a started using Star-San. (so it was probably an infection in my case)

Can you describe the taste?
Maybe I have an infection. The bitterness is not off or sour tasting though. It's a dry back of the tongue bitterness. I have noticed however that a few of my batches became over carbonated with time which I blamed on bottling with a few points left. (Even though I let them ferment for 2 weeks)

 

[ncbrewer]

Can you describe the taste?
Maybe I have an infection. The bitterness is not off or sour tasting though. It's a dry back of the tongue bitterness. I have noticed however that a few of my batches became over carbonated with time which I blamed on bottling with a few points left. (Even though I let them ferment for 2 weeks)

This sounds kind of like a problem APA that I had. The LHBS owner volunteered to taste one and said it tasted just like a Belgian Wit. He thought it was infected with either lacto or a wild yeast.

 

[The_Glue]

Can you describe the taste?
Maybe I have an infection. The bitterness is not off or sour tasting though. It's a dry back of the tongue bitterness. I have noticed however that a few of my batches became over carbonated with time which I blamed on bottling with a few points left. (Even though I let them ferment for 2 weeks)

It was an earthy, dirt like bitter aftertaste which happened after swallowing the beer. Not sour. Back of the tongue too. Maybe we have/had the same problem.

(btw that time i started using Star-San i also started using an auto-syphon instead of sucking on the racking tube)

 

[beerkench]

I think that's nailed it then. It's a yeast infection lurkinng in my equipment. I checked the FG on a batch I bottled recently and it was over carbed, dry bitter and down to 1.008 from 1.012 (with US.05).
Thanks for the help.

 

[beerkench]

I thought I would update just to conclude, and thank you for the help.
I finally realised I'd been infecting my beer with wild yeast somewhere, which was drying it out a few points, killing flavour and making it bitter.
I'd always imagined a contaminated beer to be revolting in taste but now I know otherswise. A beer can be drinkable and infected without it being too obvious.

Once I sorted that problem I took on board some tips from this thread and it has really taken my APA's/IPA's to another level.
First was the ph. I started adding way more acid (was always careful with it before) to get it down 5.2 and the difference is unbelievable. Really clean, sharp bitterness with both hop and maltiness being more pronounced.

Then I started adding only lower alpha hops later on in the boil and that too has made a huge difference. I feel somewhat conned now by all these new high alpha hops offering all these fancy flavours when they're only good for bittering.

 

[ChrisMoss]

Having read this I'm not sure what's going on with my recent ipa. I've brewed beers that didn't have any of this flavour (a saison and an IPA recently) but recently used the same equipment and after 4 weeks in the bottle the IPA has an unpleasant bitter aftertaste. Can't work out what it is!

 

[lilbova3]

I use Bru'N water for all my water chemistry. Before I used any water adjustment all of my beers came out very astringent, which sounds like is what you're getting. My beers would always be so bitter but my IBU calculations were in the 60-80 IBU range for IPAs. Once I started to learn more about the water chemistry my IPAs have come out better.

I like my IPAs nice and dry so I mash low and add enough gypsum to be near the 275 range. I also add some lactic acid to get my pH near 5.3-5.4 but my bicarbonate is much lower than yours (mine is 28) and Martin said an acid addition with high bicarbonate would not be good. He knows a lot more than me.

This could be opening up a can of worms but John Kimmich of The Alchemist gets Heady Topper in the 5.1-5.3 range for his mash pH I believe. Something to maybe try. But others on here probably have much more knowledge than myself.

Another suggestion would be try using some RO water on your next brew.

 

[The_Glue]

Martin said an acid addition with high bicarbonate would not be good.

Why? I'd like to know more about this. (because i only have access to high bicarb water so i acid the **** out of it)