Best Water Profile for Cream Ale?

[Puddlethumper]

Anyone have a recommendation for the best water profile for a cream ale? I'm using Beersmith. Thanks!

 

[Natdavis777]

I build up from RO on my beers, and off the too of my head for my cream ale, I shoot for somewhere around

Ca 50ppm
Sulfate 50ppm
Chloride 70ppm

I don't mess with sodium or Mg

 

[JonM]

I keep cream ales/lawnmower beer water pretty soft. I generally shoot for 15-50 Ca, whatever chloride comes with the CaCl to get the Ca, and usually little to no sulfate, unless it's a hoppy/bitter type of recipe.

 

[Puddlethumper]

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. Do you shoot for a profile similar to any particular place (ie Vienna, Pilsen, etc.?) Or are you just looking for a generally "soft" water profile?

 

[Yooper]

I keep cream ales/lawnmower beer water pretty soft. I generally shoot for 15-50 Ca, whatever chloride comes with the CaCl to get the Ca, and usually little to no sulfate, unless it's a hoppy/bitter type of recipe.

Yep, me too.

RO water, with enough calcium chloride to get the calcium to 40 ppm or so, and the chloride to 30-50 ppm or so. That may be about 1/2 teaspoon in 5 gallons of water, but a whole teaspoon won't hurt in all of the brewing water for a 5 gallon batch. That's pretty close to pilsen water, I'd think.

You'll also need a bit of acid, either via acid malt or some to the mash to hit a mash pH of 5.3-5.4.

 

[SchnookeredSir]

The last 2 cream ales I did I added about a 1/2 teaspoon of Kosher Salt to the mash water. I didn't use the salt in the sparge water. I have high iron and medium calcium in my well water. I have 2 whole house filters, a 25 micron and a 1 micron filter, and then I run my water through a britta pitcher.

One was entered in a local competition and both judges said I nailed the style. To me, Cream Ales are a little less hop-centric and less bitter, so I think a pilsener style might be too basic.

 

[CorporateHippie]

Sorry if this is a highjack but it is along the same lines.....

I consider myself a knowledgeable brewer in many aspects except one....water. I just don't fully understand it yet but mostly due to not putting the time into reading up on it with books by guys like Palmer. so my question is, how do you guys go about measuring the levels in your water? I have a water report from my local source but do you just guestimate what the salts add or is there a defined way to hit your numbers??

 

[SchnookeredSir]

I read up on the water chapter in The Brewer's Bible by Brian Kunath.

I don't have any real solid ways to check, but Cream Ales tend to be a bit heady, and softer water tents to hold surface bubbles longer... so I have a pretty good idea what my water does swishing it with a spoon. I look for some longer lasting bubbles on the surface, and also adjust my adjuncts accordingly.

The PA Renaissance Faire has a microbrewery on-site and they had a pilsener on tap. I got a mouthful of gypsum in it... almost like they just threw gypsum at it to be "correct." Always go small and work your way up.

 

[Puddlethumper]

Sorry if this is a highjack but it is along the same lines.....

I consider myself a knowledgeable brewer in many aspects except one....water. I just don't fully understand it yet but mostly due to not putting the time into reading up on it with books by guys like Palmer. so my question is, how do you guys go about measuring the levels in your water? I have a water report from my local source but do you just guestimate what the salts add or is there a defined way to hit your numbers??

No hijack at all. Great question IMO.

I have a lot to learn in this area as well. What I have done to date is send a sample of my well water to Ward Labs in Nebraska. Cost about 25 bucks and now I have a definitive report on the water I am working with. I know that I have fairly hard water and high pH (7.7). Dark beers are happy with my water profile. Light beers not so much. But there are several things I can do to address those issues when I need to.

The thing that has helped me the most is reading the water chemistry primer on this forum and springing for a copy of Beersmith. With the Beersmith program I'm learning to adjust my water profile to match the water of other famous brewing cities. Hence my question.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers!

 

[JonM]

I know there are those water profiles for famous cities, but it's best to ignore them. Here's the reason:

Breweries in great brewing cities don't use the city tap water the way it comes out of the tap. They treat the water to make it just right to brew the best beer. You should do the same.

 

[JonM]

You'll also need a bit of acid, either via acid malt or some to the mash to hit a mash pH of 5.3-5.4.

This is very important - definitely add acid. A good way to do it is to add aciduated malt at an amount that's 2-3% of the total grain bill.

 

[Yooper]

Sorry if this is a highjack but it is along the same lines.....

I consider myself a knowledgeable brewer in many aspects except one....water. I just don't fully understand it yet but mostly due to not putting the time into reading up on it with books by guys like Palmer. so my question is, how do you guys go about measuring the levels in your water? I have a water report from my local source but do you just guestimate what the salts add or is there a defined way to hit your numbers??

Like Puddlethumper said, send a sample of your water to Ward Lab. They have a "household minerals test" called something like W6 that is about $26 and it's all you need. Your local source may be able to tell you if they use chloramines or chlorine (and that's also important for treating your water) but for more helpful information, you may have to go to Ward Lab. You can always ask your local source for a report, but often they maintain the contaminates information and not the information you want for brewing.

I never, ever, guestimate the salts. Adding too much will easily ruin the beer. You can go with the basic Water Primer in the Brew Science area of the forum, or use a spreadsheet like bru'nwater to help. Bru'n water has a learning curve, but if you use it (it's free unless you buy the supporters version), one of the great things about it is the information on water. Martin Brungard wrote a really nice, easy to understand, intro to the spreadsheet and it explains what things like calcium and sodium and bicarbonate do, and what they mean in brewing. It was so helpful to me and I highly recommend reading it to get an overview of what those items that make or break the water actually do.

I don't add much at all to my water- as I believe strongly that "less is more". When people post on here about off flavors in their beer, they may often say, "Well, I used epsom salts, chalk, baking soda, gypsum, and my beer tastes funny, but some recipe told me to do that!" I have only gypsum and calcium chloride in my brewery, and a bit of acid and phosphoric acid. That is pretty much all anybody needs, but in some beers (like a stout), some baking soda may be a good idea for some, depending on their water.

 

[Puddlethumper]

I never, ever, guestimate the salts....

I don't add much at all to my water ...

...may be a good idea for some, depending on their water.

Couldn't agree more. If a person has the chemistry background to keep up with water treatment it can become a whole other hobby within this hobby. I don't, but I fully appreciate the insight from those who do.

Bruin' Water is a great tool. I found it very helpful in getting something of a handle on it. What I have taken away from time spent trying to sort the issue out is that you absolutely must know what your water profile is before you begin. That information establishes what adjustments (if any) are needed to make a particular style of beer. As for me and for the general styles of beers that I enjoy making there is very little that really needs to be added. Light beers take some dilution with distilled water, a dash of calcium chloride and a few ml of lactic acid. Dark beers are brewed with the water as-is.

I would be reluctant to add anything to my brewing water without pushing the numbers through a brewing calculator of some sort. Beersmith has a handy one that I am just starting to mess around with. It requires the input of a target water profile of the city where a famous beer orginated. I believe this is a good starting point because the local water had much to do with why the different styles we enjoy originated in those particular places.

Back to my original question, the notion that cream ales benefit from soft water profiles agrees with my original hunch. It also fits the pattern I've developed for brewing lighter (SRM) beers. But to tweak the process a bit I thought it would be interesting to learn which city's water profile would best suit the making of a cream ale. Thanks to those who commented.

Cheers!

 

[CorporateHippie]

Alright one more comment. First thanx for all the replys, I plan to jump feet first into my water research. So my question is...... what package do I need from Ward Labs. Everyone says it was $25 but they have three options in this link, one is $30 and the other two are both $40, including the one labeled "brewer's test kit." I'll pay $40 if I have to but help me out please.


https://producers.wardlab.com/BrewersKitOrder.php


EDIT:
NEVER MIND....didn't notice that Yooper already pointed out the correct one. Thanx again

 

[Andrew82]

Hijacking this thread to ask about a good water profile for cream ale? I've given my base water profile and the adjusted profile I'm considering (adjusting Cl and SO4). Should I even make these adjustments or keep it as is? If I should adjust, what and why? From this thread it seems softness is most important.

Base Water Profile:

Ca: 38 ppm Mg: 9.4 ppm
Na: 19.4 ppm SO4: 32.7 ppm
Cl: 35.6 ppm HCO3: 10.00 ppm

Alkalinity: 8 ppm (as CaCO3)
Effective Hardness: 33 ppm (as CaCO3)
Residual Alkalinity: -24 ppm (as CaCO3)

Adjusted Profile I'm considering:

Ca: 77.6 ppm Mg: 9.4 ppm
Na: 19.4 ppm SO4: 82.9 ppm
Cl: 68.5 ppm HCO3: 10.00 ppm

 

[mabrungard]

Softness isn't critically important, but I would aim for a lower Ca content. That sulfate content might be a bit higher than I would target, but its OK. Deleting all sulfate should never be a goal since sulfate helps dry the beer finish and most beers would end up too full if you didn't have some sulfate.