Belgian Quadruple infused triple using leftover malt?? *Experiment*

[TheMadKing]

I didn't say that at all. What I said was that the difference in the metabolism of sucrose vs glucose and fructose was minor, which is basically what you said too.

Also, I'd be careful extrapolating from a study on the fermentation of single carbon sources to fermentation of complex wort.

Yes I think we agree on the fact that the metabolic differences are minor, but in your original response (and maybe I'm misinterpreting here), you said "it doesn't matter for beer".

I took that to mean that you were saying these ingredients are interchangeable without any difference to the finished beer, and I don't agree with that.

 

[TheMadKing]

Do you think that the M31 yeast died now that my wort is 30 °C?
It is still fermenting though, but that could be the Kveik which tolerate really high temps?

No, all yeasts can tolerate the same temps as kveik, they just throw more fusel alcohols and esters at higher temps. The cool thing about kveik is not that it survives higher temperatures than other yeasts, it's that it ferments cleanly at high temperatures compared to other yeasts

 

[Roysag]

No, all yeasts can tolerate the same temps as kveik, they just throw more fusel alcohols and esters at higher temps. The cool thing about kveik is not that it survives higher temperatures than other yeasts, it's that it ferments cleanly at high temperatures compared to other yeasts

Phuh, then it maybe isn't totally ruined!

What would your advice for fermentation be in my case now. The original plan was 25°C for 5 days then 28°C 3 days.
Now the wort is 30°C. Should i try decrease the temp and try follow the original plan
Or keep the temp as it is?

 

[IslandLizard]

The original plan was 25°C for 5 days then 28°C 3 days.
Now the wort is 30°C.

Plans are intentions, but yeast is not aware of those. Instead, you should "listen" to the yeast, by observing the fermentation as it progresses.

In general we like to keep out ferm temps steady, at an appropriate temp for the yeast strain we use and our vision of what the final beer will taste like. She'll react to the environment, the warmer it gets, the faster she'll ferment, raising the temps, fermenting even faster...

In your case, you do want the yeast to create some esters in your Belgian style beer, so fermenting in the yeast strain's higher temp range is appropriate. But you don't want her to go rampant, creating fusel alcohols and other bad tasting byproducts. Keeping her steady around 25C (for this yeast) would be better, and don't let her go much higher. When fermentation starts to slow you can ramp up a few degrees to keep her engaged, making sure she'll finish the job.

You also want to prevent sudden temp drops, such as can happen overnight, as that may cause her to (unintentionally) stall, and very difficult to resurrect. So again, try to keep fermentation temps steady, and up a few degrees toward the end.

When all the spectacular action is over, your beer is not quite done yet. The yeast needs to finish the job, conditioning the beer, so a week (or 2 weeks, or even longer, depending on the beer) at room temps (20-24C) will help with that. Leave it in the original fermenter, don't open it, let it be for the whole conditioning time.*

* You could bottle condition instead, which is preferred for some styles, but you will have a bit of a yeast cake on the bottom of every bottle.

Now, just for terminology sake, remember, as soon as yeast is added to wort it becomes... beer!
So we're always fermenting beer, not wort.

 

[Roysag]

Plans are intentions, but yeast is not aware of those. Instead, you should "listen" to the yeast, by observing the fermentation as it progresses.

In general we like to keep out ferm temps steady, at an appropriate temp for the yeast strain we use and our vision of what the final beer will taste like. She'll react to the environment, the warmer it gets, the faster she'll ferment, raising the temps, fermenting even faster...

In your case, you do want the yeast to create some esters in your Belgian style beer, so fermenting in the yeast strain's higher temp range is appropriate. But you don't want her to go rampant, creating fusel alcohols and other bad tasting byproducts. Keeping her steady around 25C (for this yeast) would be better, and don't let her go much higher. When fermentation starts to slow you can ramp up a few degrees to keep her engaged, making sure she'll finish the job.

You also want to prevent sudden temp drops, such as can happen overnight, as that may cause her to (unintentionally) stall, and very difficult to resurrect. So again, try to keep fermentation temps steady, and up a few degrees toward the end.

When all the spectacular action is over, your beer is not quite done yet. The yeast needs to finish the job, conditioning the beer, so a week (or 2 weeks, or even longer, depending on the beer) at room temps (20-24C) will help with that. Leave it in the original fermenter, don't open it, let it be for the whole conditioning time.*

* You could bottle condition instead, which is preferred for some styles, but you will have a bit of a yeast cake on the bottom of every bottle.

Now, just for terminology sake, remember, as soon as yeast is added to wort it becomes... beer!
So we're always fermenting beer, not wort.

Thank you for the thorough answer!
I will try to decrease the temperature to 25°C while maintaining fermentation and then "listen" to the yeast i hope the short heat stroke wont make too much off flavours.

 

[IslandLizard]

1 pkg — Mangrove Jack's M31 Belgian Tripel

From MJ's website:
For best results, ferment at 18-28 degrees C (64-82 degrees F).

That's a fairly large range, so 22-25C would be an excellent target . When it starts to taper off raise it a 2-5C degrees over a few days.

Especially in the beginning of fermentation it's best to prevent yeast from binging at high temps, as that's where most fermentation byproducts are being created.

Now you're brewing a Belgian style beer, and Belgian yeasts are quite forgiving when used in their higher temp range. You may get a bit more bubblegum and clove flavors and such, compared to lower temps.

 

[Roysag]

1 pkg — Mangrove Jack's M31 Belgian Tripel

From MJ's website:
For best results, ferment at 18-28 degrees C (64-82 degrees F).

That's a fairly large range, so 22-25C would be an excellent target . When it starts to taper off raise it a 2-5C degrees over a few days.

Especially in the beginning of fermentation it's best to prevent yeast from binging at high temps, as that's where most fermentation byproducts are being created.

Now you're brewing a Belgian style beer, and Belgian yeasts are quite forgiving when used in their higher temp range. You may get a bit more bubblegum and clove flavors and such, compared to lower temps.

The beer is now at 24.4 degrees and dont hear more bubbles from the blow off in a while. It sure smells bubbelgum and little banana, and not sulfur! (which I had problems with previous brew)

Can beer with such high OG complete fermentation already? Or should i try up the temp a bit to see If it starts again? Or take a hydrometer reading?

 

[TheMadKing]

The beer is now at 24.4 degrees and dont hear more bubbles from the blow off in a while. It sure smells bubbelgum and little banana, and not sulfur! (which I had problems with previous brew)

Can beer with such high OG complete fermentation already? Or should i try up the temp a bit to see If it starts again? Or take a hydrometer reading?

lack of bubbles doesn't mean its entirely done - patience young jedi

I'd give it another 4-5 days to really let that yeast just finish what it's doing

 

[IslandLizard]

Can beer with such high OG complete fermentation already? Or should i try up the temp a bit to see If it starts again? Or take a hydrometer reading?

It could be mostly done, yes, having been at those high temps.*
Let it be for another week, better 2 weeks, to condition out. Don't open it, gravity readings are not useful right now anyway. Opening it up will let air inside the fermenter, potentially causing oxidation, which is what you want to avoid.

* How did you measure those temps?

 

[Roysag]

Thanks guys for your replies during these times of need!
I will try practice patience

I have taped our outdoor thermometer sensor to the middle of the fermentor.
This is my 5th batch of beer and I have until now thought that it is the room temperature that matters, not the ambient temperature.

 

[IslandLizard]

I have until now thought that it is the room temperature that matters, not the ambient temperature.

Room temp is the ambient (surrounding) temp, isn't it?

The actual temp of the beer (in the fermenter) is important. But it's difficult keeping a thermometer probe in the beer, unless one uses a thermowell.

Therefore we usually measure the beer's temp by taping or strapping the temp probe, placed underneath a piece of 1/4-1/2" thick, dense packing foam against the side of the fermenter in the middle where the beer is. The foam prevents the probe from reading the ambient temp too much.

 

[Roysag]

Room temp is the ambient (surrounding) temp, isn't it?

The actual temp of the beer (in the fermenter) is important. But it's difficult keeping a thermometer probe in the beer, unless one uses a thermowell.

Therefore we usually measure the beer's temp by taping or strapping the temp probe, placed underneath a piece of 1/4-1/2" thick, dense packing foam against the side of the fermenter in the middle where the beer is. The foam prevents the probe from reading the ambient temp too much.

Sorry you are correct, I meant to say temperature of the beer instead of ambient
That was smart to use a bit isolation foam on the temp probe!

 

[Roysag]

Hi again, I have raised to 27°C and it still bubbling, which leads me into a concern and would like your advice on the matter

We are apperently going away for the holiday on the 22th and probably be back home 29-30th december and I feel bad to leave my beer home alone for christmas

What should i do with the beer? Bottling it on the morning the 22th or could the beer be in the fermontor until the 29-30th?

 

[IslandLizard]

could the beer be in the fermontor until the 29-30th?

Yes!
It's best for the beer to leave her be, obviously she's not done.
She needs to completely ferment out, then "bulk condition" for a few weeks.

What are the temps at home going to be when you're out on the holidays?
Any area, room, closet, etc. that stays mildly warm, like 23-25C?

 

[Roysag]

Rest of the house is stable around 22°C
So i guess It would be my pillow castle then when i could have my beer around 25°C. But the temp is a bit unstable and can shift 2°C up and down depending on the radiator temp

Or what could happen If I leave the beer around 27-28°C?

Can bulk conditioning be done in the same fermentor atop of the yeast cake or does it need to change to another bucket?

 

[Roysag]

I took a FG simple and it's 1.008 so thats according to plan atleast. But when I tasted the sample it had alot of alcohol flavours, quite bitter and some weird lingering feeling at the back of my tounge. Also, I cant taste any esters??

What does the "clean up" phase take care of and also what can conditioning take care off?

 

[IslandLizard]

Rest of the house is stable around 22°C

Even when you're on vacation?

So i guess It would be my pillow castle then when i could have my beer around 25°C. [...]

For the yeast(s) you're using in this brew, yes, that's a good temperature.

Or what could happen If I leave the beer around 27-28°C?

How can you get those temps, while not cranking up the heating system 24/7?
Wrapping a heating pad or heating blanket around the fermenter can assist with that. Then wrap that whole system in a thick blanket or other insulation, to reduce heat loss.
That said, 25C is fine for finishing out and conditioning. Remember, try to keep temps steady to prevent the yeast from floccing out prematurely.

Can bulk conditioning be done in the same fermentor atop of the yeast cake or does it need to change to another bucket?

Yes it can, for several weeks.

The largest risk when transferring the beer off the cake (in the "primary" fermenter) into another vessel is exposure to air, causing your beer to pick up oxygen, which is bad for your beer (causing oxidation). Therefore, unless you can transfer without exposing the beer to air, it's best to leave it in the "primary" fermenter. Don't remove the lid either!

Buckets cannot be used as secondary fermenters or to condition beer. They leave too much headspace and have a huge beer-to-air surface!

 

[IslandLizard]

I took a FG simple and it's 1.008 so thats according to plan atleast.

That's actually quite low for a Belgian Strong that started at around 1.079 (according to your recipe):

Original Gravity: 1.079

Did you ever measure the actual OG? I can't seem to find that number in the discussion.

when I tasted the sample it had alot of alcohol flavours

If your OG was indeed 1.079 and your current SG reading is 1.008, you've got 9.3% alcohol in there!
See: Alcohol By Volume ABV Calculator | Brewer's Friend

quite bitter and some weird lingering feeling at the back of my tounge.

It's good you tasted it, gives you a reference what warm, young ("green") beer tastes like for reference in future brews.
Your beer will be quite different once it's conditioned, carbonated, and cold.

Also, I cant taste any esters??

They're there, don't worry, but may be overshadowed by malt, alcohol, and bitterness. It's still very young, green, high ABV beer!

What does the "clean up" phase take care of and also what can conditioning take care off?

Conditioning and cleanup (phase) are the same thing. It cleans up unwanted byproducts of fermentation, within reason.
Read up on the "3 phases of fermentation."

 

[Roysag]

Even when you're on vacation?

In other cases i would lower It, but now with the beer i wont risk it^^

Did you ever measure the actual OG? I can't seem to find that number in the discussion.

Yes its 1.080, it boiled of too much So It were 1.093, so I had to add water to reach 1.080

How can you get those temps, while not cranking up the heating system 24/7?

The table trap the heat and you can see the radiator in there, also If you can see i got thermometers in there.
(And in the blue bucket some "Glögg" )

So It gets quite hot in there, when the fermentor was on the floor the beer kept around 25°C

That's actually quite low for a Belgian Strong that started at around 1.079

I have read that the m31 yeast ferments very dry. I tried with the mash to get some unfermentable sugars, but maybe thats the pro with Candi Sugar that it yields more?

It's good you tasted it, gives you a reference what warm, young ("green") beer tastes like for reference in future brews.
Your beer will be quite different once it's conditioned, carbonated, and cold.
They're there, don't worry, but may be overshadowed by malt, alcohol, and bitterness. It's still very young, green, high ABV beer!
Conditioning and cleanup (phase) are the same thing. It cleans up unwanted byproducts of fermentation, within reason.
Read up on the "3 phases of fermentation."

I sure hope its true!
The bubbling that still continues, could that be part of the conditioning when cleaning up some byproducts?

And also, maybe now its time to slowly start reach 25° C before leaving?

 

[IslandLizard]

The bubbling that still continues, could that be part of the conditioning when cleaning up some byproducts?

Bubbling means there is (still) CO2 production, sugars being converted to alcohol and CO2.
Conditioning is "silent," you can't see it.

The 3 phases of fermentation are not concrete time events, they overlap by several days or even weeks. Meaning, your beer has already been conditioning for several days (or a week) while she's finishing up active fermentation. Once she runs out of fuel (fermentable sugars) the bubbling will slow and ultimately come to a halt, while she keeps conditioning.

And also, maybe now its time to slowly start reach 25° C before leaving?

I'd let her be for another day at the current (~27°C) temps to help finish out.
The day you leave, and turn the thermostat down (20-22C is probably just fine), and wrap her completely into thick blankets, including the top, you can (loosely) cover the airlock too.
Don't forget to insulate the bottom, as she can lose much heat through that being on a cold floor. She'll look like big bundle of joy.

She has a week to condition (in peace) while you're having fun elsewhere. Perhaps she'd nibble another point or 2 off, who knows, both Belgian yeast and Kveik are notorious for persistence, while the Belgian is likely diastatic.

And in the blue bucket some "Glögg"

Mmmm, yummy!

 

[Wiratoma]

I went straight to the cellar with the bottles since the recipe said to let the beer mature in 12°C. But is there maybe a "let the beer carbonate" step? Keep the bottles in room temp for a couple of days to gain carbonation and the take them down to the cellar?

Do I need to mix the boiled sugar solution by shaking the bottles too? Isn't there a risk to "shake in oxygen" and cause oxidation problems?

 

[z-bob]

I have one more question for the ineviatble bottling. My last brews lost the carbonation (or never gained any)..
My method was to simply add table suger with a teaspoon in to the bottle, fill it up and close it. Then brought them down to the cellar (12°C)
Can my method be improved/changed to ensure better carbonation?

[I just found this thread] Yes you can improve your method a little; the beer won't care, but you will because it's easier: Use a small stainless steel funnel and a measuring spoon to prime the bottles. Be careful to keep the funnel dry. It goes so much faster using the funnel. Here's the one I use (the price has gone up) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0044EGTGC