Beer improves over time. Is this true with IPAs?

[RogueVassar]

I've made a number of IPA batches and they all seem to taste the liveliest and best soon after being made. I just drank an all-amarillo that was amazing when it was first made (in November, I think) and it was ho hum now and nothing compared to the last two batches.

I've heard hops mellow with age so maybe it is my love of hops but what do you guys think?

 

[ArcaneXor]

The hop character begins fading fairly quickly in IPAs - hopheads generally want to drink them very young. I quite enjoy an aged IPA from time to time, but it's almost a completely different drink compared to a fresh IPA.

There are many other beer styles that age isn't usually kind to - Witbiers and Ordinary Bitters, for example.

 

[rayg]

Ale does NOT improve with time if you are
interested in hop flavor and aroma. The hop flavor
and aroma begins decreasing immediately upon
removal of the beer from the hops. This I think is why
many homebrewers age their beers: they don't
really like the taste of hops. They are accustomed
to commercial lagers, so they brew with American
ale yeasts, which leave a tart flavor and little
body, both of which accentuate the carbonation,
just like the commercial lagers. Dark beers like
stout, especially with the recipes many people
use today (with too much dark malt) benefit from
aging because it smooths out the harsh flavor of the
dark malts, which would make the beer taste like
liquid charcoal otherwise, but if you notice
in Guinness, for example, there is no hop flavor
or aroma. So the way to think of it in my view
is that all flavors in beer decrease in intensity
with age.

Nowadays its fashionable to make those so-called
"Imperial" beers with high gravities and huge
hop rates. But many of the people making these
beers don't really like that much flavor so they
age them to make them "better". In my opinion
you get a much better beer if you use less
hops and/or dark malts but serve them 10-14
days after pitching. That's the whole idea
behind "real ale" in Britain.

Lagering works because the beer is not intended
to have a complex, strong flavor, rather a clean
and bubbly refreshing palate, so they don't
use huge amounts of hops and dark malts, and because
the aging is done at 30-32F, which minimizes the
flavor loss due to the aging. The cold temperature
also precipitates harsh tannins and yeast, and
after filtration all you have is the clean
bitterness and some residual malty flavor, which
is only "better" if that's what your palate prefers.

Ray

 

[RogueVassar]

It's great to hear these answers because, over the past few months, I've seen on these boards over and over again that you need to wait to drink your beer and it will only get better. Glad to see that I'm not going crazy.

I also know it's personal preference and I will be interested to see the differences with other beer types as I branch out more...

 

[wonderbread23]

I like to do a longer primary ferment on IPAs to ensure a clean beer with little green apple flavor (say three weeks). From there, dry hop and consume as soon as carbed. Obviously, for bigger DIPAs I'll bulk condition it longer to help make the alcohols a bit smoother and let things meld together (say maybe 1.5-2 months) and then dry hop and package. For me the key is getting it packaged and carbed as close to the dry hop as possible. I also like to over-due my flame out hops to account for what will be lost between the time it is brewed and packaged. Its really about knowing when you'll be consuming the beers and adjusting the hop additions accordingly.

As for other beers with little hop flavor or aroma, patience tends to be rewarded.

 

[david_42]

An old IPA is basically an ESB.

 

[MacBruver]

It's great to hear these answers because, over the past few months, I've seen on these boards over and over again that you need to wait to drink your beer and it will only get better. Glad to see that I'm not going crazy.

I also know it's personal preference and I will be interested to see the differences with other beer types as I branch out more...

If a beer is well made, it will be ready to drink very quickly. If it has some flaws... they will mellow in time just like the rest of the flavors. My first batch of beer was a coffee stout that I probably fermented at too high of a temperature. It had some off flavors, but was still pretty decent. I still have a couple bombers of it left, and I cracked one after a year in the bottle... and it was great.

You'll hear people around here say "time heals all wounds"... but if the beer didn't have any wounds to begin with, it doesn't need much time.

One caveat: none of this really applies for big beers like barley wines, RIS's, brett/bugged beers, stuff like that. They definitely do get better with some age.

 

[ChshreCat]

It's great to hear these answers because, over the past few months, I've seen on these boards over and over again that you need to wait to drink your beer and it will only get better. Glad to see that I'm not going crazy.

I also know it's personal preference and I will be interested to see the differences with other beer types as I branch out more...

It's the middle ground you want. Just because hop character fades over time doesn't mean I want to drink green beer either. In general, after a beer is bottled and carbed, it improves for a while, peaks and then fades. With APAs and IPAs, this peak comes sooner than it would with, say, a RIS. That doesn't mean you want to drink it as soon as it comes out of the fermenter.

 

[jppostKW]

One Ipa i brewed needed aging to get it drinkable it had a hefty late addition of summit and took 2.5 months for the pungent flavor of onions to fade. after this wait it was super tasty and still had good aroma.


HBT must be off its period for the past few weeks post number 3 would have brought crys of outrage about ignorance anger and off topic pissing contests good to see we are here for the same reason.......good beer:rockin:

 

[Chuck_Swillery]

Imagine what it would have been like to take a big draught off one of the barrels bound for India before ever leaving the English Channel. Doubt it would have been very good, or at least would be a very different brew compared to what arrived weeks/months later. It was hopped that way to make the voyage. With the size of batches and conditons the average brew deals with the speed of which those same changes occur at a faster rate. Therefore if you're looking for a big hop flavor you'd have to drink sooner into the life of the brew. Aging doesn't mellow all flavors but hops is certainly on the list of those that do.

Green beer vs Aged beer vs Big-Bold beer vs Piss Water - drink what you like.


"HBT must be off its period... post number 3 would have brought crys of outrage..."

Time will tell. LOL The thoughts are not completely inaccurate but I don't completely agree either. However, short of hijacking the thread...

 

[gtpro]

This I think is why
many homebrewers age their beers: they don't
really like the taste of hops. They are accustomed
to commercial lagers, so they brew with American
ale yeasts, which leave a tart flavor and little
body, both of which accentuate the carbonation,
just like the commercial lagers.

Ray

Thats preposterous, homebrewers are one of the few populations that you can safely assume actually appreciate flavorful beers.

 

[Mikethepoolguy]

I would try every beer when it is fairly new. If you like it, drink it and brew more. If you dont, put it in the closet for a month or two. If you still dont like it forget about it until you 'discover' it.

 

[rayg]

Thats preposterous, homebrewers are one of the few populations that you can safely assume actually appreciate flavorful beers.

I don't think it's preposterous. Many homebrewers here have stated
that they don't like hoppy beers, some have said they didn't like them
at first but then began to like them. I would say if you took 100
homebrewers and 100 people out of the general population, more of
the homebrewers would like the hoppy beers. As another poster
in this thread stated, if there aren't any flaws in the beer you can
drink them early, but bad flavors become weaker with age along
with the good ones. Many homebrewers complain about "green"
beer flavor, I honestly don't know what they mean. Acetaldehyde
can have a green apple flavor but so do some of the aldehydes
found in hops, and it seems to me that that flavor must blend
in nicely with citrusy hops, because I like my American IPA's
"green". I'm not saying you shouldn't age your beers, I'm saying
that the idea that all beers should be aged is wrong. If aging
gives you the taste you want, by all means age your beer.

Ray

 

[ArcaneXor]

Many homebrewers complain about "green"
beer flavor, I honestly don't know what they mean.

Mostly yeast bite and fermentation by-products like diacetyl, acetylaldehyde, etc that tend to be re-absorbed with proper handling. That re-absorption happens more slowly (or not at all) when the beer is handled improperly, as is done inadvertently by many new brewers who have yet to learn the details on how the art and science of brewing applies to their specific brewery.

 

[Grizzlybrew]

This I think is why
many homebrewers age their beers: they don't
really like the taste of hops. They are accustomed
to commercial lagers, so they brew with American
ale yeasts, which leave a tart flavor and little
body, both of which accentuate the carbonation,
just like the commercial lagers. Ray

This post was kind of all over the place and contained alot of generalizations. I think the hombrewing community is more educated about beer styles than the general population. Maybe new brewers need to find their palate, but generally, if homebrewers are aging it's because they understand that certain phenols or hot alcohols need to blend and/or fade.

Imagine what it would have been like to take a big draught off one of the barrels bound for India before ever leaving the English Channel. Doubt it would have been very good, or at least would be a very different brew compared to what arrived weeks/months later.

I don't believe the intention of an English IPA was to beat you over the head with flavor and aroma the way American IPA's do. The hops were elevated for sure, but no where near the point of American IPA's today. Drink an authentic English IPA and you will see the difference.

I don't think it's preposterous. Many homebrewers here have stated
that they don't like hoppy beers, some have said they didn't like them
at first but then began to like them. I would say if you took 100
homebrewers and 100 people out of the general population, more of
the homebrewers would like the hoppy beers. Ray

This kind of seems like a contradiction (to the earlier post and to itself)... you did have some good info mixed in, but again, the message of the post was kind of scattered. I'm just not sure if I got the exact message

 

[rayg]

Imagine what it would have been like to take a big draught off one of the barrels bound for India before ever leaving the English Channel. Doubt it would have been very good, or at least would be a very different brew compared to what arrived weeks/months later.

Different maybe, but not better. Recipes for English ales from the 1880's
are very highly hopped (75-100 IBU for "Bitter", maybe 40-60 for "Mild").
and these were for domestic consumption, not stored for a long time.

Ray

 

[ipso]

...

RayG – your post #3 ^ resonates with me. And I too have a hard time conceiving how a “green” ale might taste worse, all other things being equal. Of course taste is the ultimate subjective though.

I hear of vintage Celebration Ales tastings all the time. A place not too far away from me (“The Stuffed Sandwich”) sells prior years of Celebration. I know for a fact the fresh Celebration tastes widely variant from year to year, so not sure if they are tasting for that or for actual bottle mellowing.

I have never once in 20 years felt the need to age homebrew ale – one day, much less one year – so I actually know nothing about it directly. But my silly personal myth is that people are ..conditioned (primarily via the wine industry) to think by default that “aged” probably means better (with apologies to Parker fans) and adjust their beer taste perception accordingly to that knowledge from another domain. People who are confronted with my homebrew for the first time invariably ask “How long does it take?”, and then something like “~That’s all? I thought aging beer was better”. Happens all the time. Happened last weekend actually, at an Oscar party. I invariably counter with my own mythic tall tales. (Being Irish American, I never let the truth get in the way of a good story.) I tell them:

“I feel 90% of beer degrades immediately. You know.., the beers you and I drink. Aging beer to me equates to product shelf-life. Only really hearty barley wines or maybe complex Belgians might actually benefit from mellowing in glass. I like to think of ale as really wet bread: and straight out of the oven is best.” <Dramatic pause – to let that vision sink in, as they look away with sparkling eyes.> “I know one or two homebrewers who get their wires crossed, and like to think of and present their beers like fine aged wines – vs. say fine bread makers. But they are probably better homebrewers than I am, so who knows; and to each his own anyway. However, my rule of thumb is if a beer bottle has a cork in it – it’s OK to age, otherwise drink immediately for best results.”

For better or worse, that’s the message I give. However, I clearly am conditioned by the overwhelming want to drink beer promptly, and the abhorrent vision of dufus store managers who take beers like Sierra Nevada and leave them out warm for months at a time. Or bright florescent light filled liquor store coolers with exposed bottles … that horror of buying a really great beer and having it taste like ass.

We all have our own crosses to bear.

 

[goose1873]

I made A bells two-hearted clone and had it in primary 3 weeks and bottled (dry hopped for last week). I tried a couple 2 weeks after bottling and the beer was ok. I tried one after 4 weeks in bottles and it was amazing. I do agree the hop taste (which i love) died down a little...

thinking next time will primary 4 weeks then keg and force carb to get the best of both worlds...

 

[RogueVassar]

“I feel 90% of beer degrades immediately. You know.., the beers you and I drink. Aging beer to me equates to product shelf-life. Only really hearty barley wines or maybe complex Belgians might actually benefit from mellowing in glass. I like to think of ale as really wet bread: and straight out of the oven is best.” <Dramatic pause – to let that vision sink in, as they look away with sparkling eyes.> “I know one or two homebrewers who get their wires crossed, and like to think of and present their beers like fine aged wines – vs. say fine bread makers. But they are probably better homebrewers than I am, so who knows; and to each his own anyway. However, my rule of thumb is if a beer bottle has a cork in it – it’s OK to age, otherwise drink immediately for best results.”

For better or worse, that’s the message I give. However, I clearly am conditioned by the overwhelming want to drink beer promptly, and the abhorrent vision of dufus store managers who take beers like Sierra Nevada and leave them out warm for months at a time. Or bright florescent light filled liquor store coolers with exposed bottles … that horror of buying a really great beer and having it taste like ass.

I think one major factor is if the beer has been pasteurized. Once it's "dead", I don't think there's any way that it can improve. So those Sierra Nevada's aren't going to get any better...

 

[ArcaneXor]

I think one major factor is if the beer has been pasteurized. Once it's "dead", I don't think there's any way that it can improve. So those Sierra Nevada's aren't going to get any better...

Sierra Nevada beers are bottle-conditioned.

 

[RogueVassar]

Sierra Nevada beers are bottle-conditioned.

I've had a lot of em and never realized. I guess because it doesn't have the amount of sediment that I would expect. I read up on how they reyeast it. Interesting and thanks for the info!

 

[remilard]

Different maybe, but not better. Recipes for English ales from the 1880's
are very highly hopped (75-100 IBU for "Bitter", maybe 40-60 for "Mild").
and these were for domestic consumption, not stored for a long time.

Ray

Any sort of claim like that is based on estimates on top of estimates on top of estimates. Brewers in 1880 could neither measure IBU's nor AA% in hops. Moreover, they would have had poor storage conditions for hops relative to today, so fall beers would have been wildly less bitter than winter beers unless the recipe was changed. So you have recipes in hopping rates and can guess at the AA% of the hops and the utilization in the kettle but there is a huge margin for error in that estimate.

 

[BlueSunshine]

I think it all comes down to personal preference really. I just brewed an Imperial IPA and I drank it after 2 and 1/2 weeks in the bottle. It was fantastic and super fresh, but it still had green flavors. I drank another 2 weeks later and while the green flavors were all but gone, it didn't taste as fresh and potent in the hops department. However, I still liked it better due to the lack of green flavors.

I'm pretty sure now that it's hop flavor is even less potent, but I'd probably enjoy it now more than ever.

 

[goose1873]

I think it all comes down to personal preference really. I just brewed an Imperial IPA and I drank it after 2 and 1/2 weeks in the bottle. It was fantastic and super fresh, but it still had green flavors. I drank another 2 weeks later and while the green flavors were all but gone, it didn't taste as fresh and potent in the hops department. However, I still liked it better due to the lack of green flavors.

I'm pretty sure now that it's hop flavor is even less potent, but I'd probably enjoy it now more than ever.

I agree 100%. I'm going to give the next batch a month+ in the primary then 7-10 days dry hop followed by force carb...and drink fresh...

to the pursuit of the perfect IPA

 

[rayg]

Any sort of claim like that is based on estimates on top of estimates on top of estimates. Brewers in 1880 could neither measure IBU's nor AA% in hops. Moreover, they would have had poor storage conditions for hops relative to today, so fall beers would have been wildly less bitter than winter beers unless the recipe was changed. So you have recipes in hopping rates and can guess at the AA% of the hops and the utilization in the kettle but there is a huge margin for error in that estimate.

But the brewers of the IPA's had the same problem, so were their beers
not highly hopped? Whether they were sending the beers to India or
not, there was still the problem with beer stability with no refrigeration,
and high alcohol/high hop levels were a partial remedy.

Bitter ale at 1.045 OG was hopped at 5oz per five gallons and 3/4
oz for dry hopping, according to an 1881 paper by Graham. I don't
think you would get good flavor from dry hopping with stale hops,
and it's hard to believe the %AA would be significantly different
from modern values. Anyway, where's the hard evidence that they
were using stale, low %AA hops?

The OG's of other ales named by Graham:
Burton Pale Ale: 1.062
Burton Bitter: 1.064
AK Bitter: 1.045
Scotch Bitter: 1.057
Burton Mild: 1.080
AK Mild: 1.055-1.074

The "milds" in those days were a completely different thing
than what is labeled "mild" today. They probably had a good deal
of residual sweetness that masked some of the hop bitterness,
hence "mild".

Ray

 

[rayg]

But my silly personal myth is that people are ..conditioned (primarily via the wine industry) to think by default that “aged” probably means better (with apologies to Parker fans) and adjust their beer taste perception accordingly to that knowledge from another domain.

I agree with everything you say, ipso. I would add also that in addition
to the wine aging, the idea of lagering also sticks in some people's minds
when they think they have to age beer.

Ray

 

[MBasile]

Ale does NOT improve with time if you are
interested in hop flavor and aroma. The hop flavor
and aroma begins decreasing immediately upon
removal of the beer from the hops. This I think is why
many homebrewers age their beers: they don't
really like the taste of hops. They are accustomed
to commercial lagers, so they brew with American
ale yeasts, which leave a tart flavor and little
body, both of which accentuate the carbonation,
just like the commercial lagers. Dark beers like
stout, especially with the recipes many people
use today (with too much dark malt) benefit from
aging because it smooths out the harsh flavor of the
dark malts, which would make the beer taste like
liquid charcoal otherwise, but if you notice
in Guinness, for example, there is no hop flavor
or aroma. So the way to think of it in my view
is that all flavors in beer decrease in intensity
with age.

Nowadays its fashionable to make those so-called
"Imperial" beers with high gravities and huge
hop rates. But many of the people making these
beers don't really like that much flavor so they
age them to make them "better". In my opinion
you get a much better beer if you use less
hops and/or dark malts but serve them 10-14
days after pitching. That's the whole idea
behind "real ale" in Britain.

Lagering works because the beer is not intended
to have a complex, strong flavor, rather a clean
and bubbly refreshing palate, so they don't
use huge amounts of hops and dark malts, and because
the aging is done at 30-32F, which minimizes the
flavor loss due to the aging. The cold temperature
also precipitates harsh tannins and yeast, and
after filtration all you have is the clean
bitterness and some residual malty flavor, which
is only "better" if that's what your palate prefers.

Ray

My first pale ale recipe was really lacking in the body department at 2 or 3 weeks. At 5 or 6 weeks it was much better. Not because flavors has "decreased" but because the appropriate flavors had melded together.

You may like the harsh flavors of a young beer, but that doesn't mean that those are the "right" flavors. The right flavors are the ones that the brewer is working towards achieving.

 

[ipso]

I agree with everything you say, ipso. I would add also that in addition
to the wine aging, the idea of lagering also sticks in some people's minds
when they think they have to age beer.

Ray

Ahhhh. Lagering. Well, there’s that. I knew my mythic "90%" was entirely wrong, but I just didn’t know why. That would be why. Thanks for the info (and not the hammer).

 

[Grizzlybrew]

I agree 100%. I'm going to give the next batch a month+ in the primary then 7-10 days dry hop followed by force carb...and drink fresh...

to the pursuit of the perfect IPA

I'm brewing an IIPA this weekend and plan to do the same.

 

[Matthoc116]

Agreed with a bunch of prior posters, it's all preference. Crack a bottle after a few weeks and see how it goes. If it's still too green and you don't like the taste, let it sit a few more weeks, and next time you brew it, overhop it a bit (over-hop being an oxymoron to some) to let it mellow to the levels you're looking for.

Otherwise, if you crack a bottle early, and it tastes great to you, I fail to see what the problem is. And if you think having homebrew you enjoy on hand is a problem, send me a few bottles so I may share in your problems...

 

[SlipknotMcGee]

So, the way I see it, drink an IPA early and the hop flavor is fantastic, but the other flavors in the beer might not be ready yet. Drink it later, and the hops have mellowed and lost some magic, but the rest of the flavors have matured.

So what's the solution? I say dry hop your glass. Who's with me?

 

[carnevoodoo]

So, the way I see it, drink an IPA early and the hop flavor is fantastic, but the other flavors in the beer might not be ready yet. Drink it later, and the hops have mellowed and lost some magic, but the rest of the flavors have matured.

So what's the solution? I say dry hop your glass. Who's with me?

Learning how to perfect the balance is key. I can turn around an IPA or any smaller beer in a quick timeframe without worrying about the beer being green. If your controls are in place, you pitch properly, and you force carb, it will all come together pretty quick. Well made beer will less often be "green" than if your process is lacking. I mean big breweries push beer out FAST and I've never had one complaint about my beer being as fresh as possible.

The whole argument of "beer gets better with age" works with giant beers and with flawed beers. If you work on getting rid of the flaws, you can get rid of the age.

 

[ArcaneXor]

The whole argument of "beer gets better with age" works with giant beers and with flawed beers. If you work on getting rid of the flaws, you can get rid of the age.

I find that to be true. The Belgian Dark Strong I brewed in January of '09 took about half a year for the phenols to mellow to the point where the beer became drinkable. After nine months, it was divine.

I brewed a similar beer just over a month ago. Despite being bottled, it already tastes awesome.