Bad score, really bad score

[p_p]

Hi all, I got a terrible score in a competition.

So a brew this Stong Ale based on the recipe published by Fullers for their 1845, a beer I love and regularly drink, which btw is Listed as one of the style's example in the bjcp guide.

Finished brewing this beer feeling that, from all what I brewed so far, this is the one I did the best technically. Beer ferments, conditions for a few weeks and I am loving it. No need to pay for this baby anymore, I thought.

If I was ever to get a medal, this was going to be the beer to deliver it. Bang on the middle of the style, following the best example mr. Stong could find and aside chill haze, I could not personally fault it (which shows how little I know).

Shared the beer with two work colleagues, hardcore real ale drinkers, and I get requests to brew whole kegs for them. So I am feeling confident.

Beer goes to competition and does not place. Ok, fair enough, I am measuring myself against lots of very talented brewes... Maybe next time.

Then the score comes in and it is a 20. Yes, a 20. And I go from feeling confident to just having the sandcastle kicked hard.

Bearing in mind I am still waiting to read what the judge said. I am wondering how could I have got it so wrong.

I cracked open one a few minutes ago (I never crack open one on a Tuesday! But I am like, I need to figure this out) and I am liking it as much as I did a week ago when I thought I had a winner ... Still trying to figure out what's wrong with it .. :/

I will do a side by side with a 1845 to see if I can spot where the defects are, but 20? Really? That's like a I cannot drink that **** score, right?

 

[Yooper]

20 isn't an "I can't drink this" score, but it's not good.
Here's the breakdown for that range:
Good (21 - 29): Misses the mark on style and/or minor flaws.
Fair (14 - 20): Off flavors/aromas or major style deficiencies. Unpleasant.

Here's what the scoresheet looks like: https://www.bjcp.org/docs/SCP_BeerScoreSheet.pdf

You really need the scoresheets to see what the judges had to say about the off flavors, or how it missed the style guidelines. Which category did you enter?

 

[p_p]

20 isn't an "I can't drink this" score, but it's not good.
Here's the breakdown for that range:
Good (21 - 29): Misses the mark on style and/or minor flaws.
Fair (14 - 20): Off flavors/aromas or major style deficiencies. Unpleasant.

Here's what the scoresheet looks like: https://www.bjcp.org/docs/SCP_BeerScoreSheet.pdf

You really need the scoresheets to see what the judges had to say about the off flavors, or how it missed the style guidelines. Which category did you enter?

Entered as British Strong Ale, 17A.
This is the beer you were giving me advice on how to get WLP002 to attenuate well. I mashed long and low, tried to get the ph slightly down, and use some simple sugars to get the circa 80% aatt. I got the OG and FG very close to what Fullers declared and used the same malts, from the same suppliers. Like I said, I thought I wouldn't have to buy this one anymore!

Should wait for the comments, though it feels good to vent a bit.

Maybe the beer is infected and metal palate me hasn't noticed?

 

[brick_haus]

Scores can be all over the place so I don't put a lot of worry on them until I get score sheets from multiple competitions. I have recently entered the same beer, bottled at the same time from the same batch into 3 separate comps taking place within two weeks of each other.
Low score 26, high score 40! That is a wide range for sure.
I have experienced this same variation in scores multiple times. I just go with the high score and make myself believe that I'm a good brewer!

 

[bleme]

I'd ask myself why I care what the judges think. If I like it, I like it. If I don't, I don't. Some score isn't going to make me like it more or less. If I want an educated opinion on my beer, I'd take it to one of the BJCP judges in my club where we can have a back and forth discussion.

 

[schatzke]

Also keep in mind some competitions don't have a lot judges with a lot of experience. The score you got shouldn't change the way you feel about your beer.
BTW what score would you give this beer if you were judging it?

 

[eyebrau]

Please post the score sheets when you get them, if you would. I'd be interested in seeing. I'm a BJCP judge, and I can tell you there could be a lot of reasons that your judges didn't rate it high, and it certainly doesn't mean other judges wouldn't rate it much higher. Beer judging is still subjective, even with the style guidelines. My guess is that your judges weren't used to judging that specific style (it's new to the 2015 guidelines so they may have never judged the style before), and it's possible that there weren't that many beers in that specific subcategory and they subconsciously judged it according to other subcategories they were judging. With that said... it's a really broad category open to interpretation... you shouldn't have gotten that low of a score unless you had one of the things the guidelines specifically call out as out of style, like too much diacetyl or overly hot/solventy.

 

[passedpawn]

20 is pretty bad. The beer must have missed the mark in most categories. Is it possible it was a bad one? I did a fair amount of judging (years ago), and the only beers that got scores that low (and lower) were gushers that were ruined in all ways. If you and your mates thought it was good, no way it would get a score that low.

 

[brick_haus]

I'd ask myself why I care what the judges think. If I like it, I like it. If I don't, I don't. Some score isn't going to make me like it more or less. If I want an educated opinion on my beer, I'd take it to one of the BJCP judges in my club where we can have a back and forth discussion.

At the risk of hijacking this thread.
I send my beers to competition because I like to compete. I care what the judges think because I want to win the competition.
Thats one of the great things about this hobby, you can brew what you like AND compete with others using the generously donated time offered by the judges and stewards.
My haus ale scores low anytime I enter it into competitions, but its what I brew most often, because we like it.
I brew some others mainly for the competitions.

By the way, brewing Yoopers Oatmeal Stout recipe has won me three first place awards in large competitions. You should try it!

 

[p_p]

Also keep in mind some competitions don't have a lot judges with a lot of experience. The score you got shouldn't change the way you feel about your beer.
BTW what score would you give this beer if you were judging it?

Up to the point at which I learnt the score, I thought the beer was Very Good as it ticked the boxes style wise.
Admitedly, this is the first time I brew the style and the first time I use this yeast so I am sure it can use a couple of re-brews and tweaks.

Please post the score sheets when you get them, if you would. ... you shouldn't have gotten that low of a score unless you had one of the things the guidelines specifically call out as out of style, like too much diacetyl or overly hot/solventy.

20 is pretty bad. The beer must have missed the mark in most categories. Is it possible it was a bad one? I did a fair amount of judging (years ago), and the only beers that got scores that low (and lower) were gushers that were ruined in all ways. If you and your mates thought it was good, no way it would get a score that low.

Will definitively post back what the judge had to say and reach out to you guys to get advice on how to improve self-brew appreciation and ultimately make changes aimed to improve the beer.
I know it was not a bad bottle, though I do not discard the possibility of the beer being infected and me being unable to taste the off flavours. Pre-empting getting hold of the score-sheet, I will guess the comment will be related to alcohol content and how it plays with the strong malts used in 1845.

At the risk of hijacking this thread.
I send my beers to competition because I like to compete. I care what the judges think because I want to win the competition.

In a way, I am with you however I think I care what the judges say because of their objectivity.
What threw me out of balance is having thought the beer was good and then realize that it is more like a "dumper".
Now I drink this beer, and yes, I still like it but not as much as I did. The score has effectively changed my own perception of the beer.


Anyway, thanks every body. Expect a thread shortly seeking for advice on how to make this beer a good one.
Cheers!

 

[JBOGAN]

Sometimes its a bad beer, a bad judge or just a bad day. Try not to beat yourself up about it.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

A bad score doesn't mean a bad beer.
If the beer is genuinely good, and your friends aren't just blowing smoke up your butt, it's most likely that it was deemed to not fit the style profile. The tastiest beer in the world is going to score badly if it's in the wrong category or doesn't fit the interpretation of the style guidelines.

 

[GPP33]

I've enjoyed more than a few beers with "certified judges". IMHO it's all a bunch of BS, as I've posted in other threads. Don't get me wrong, the good judges are worth their weight in gold when it comes to evaluating your beers but I've seen such dramatic swings at the amateur level that I wouldn't trust their "objective" opinion. If you like it you did something right, your friends opinions support that. If you really want the reassurance submit it to as many comps as you can, otherwise f-em.

And before I get jumped on.....a buddy submitted one we brewed together and it got great scores, that's the only one of mine ever submitted. I judge quality based on how much my friends and I enjoy it. When my buddies ask for more I know I did it right, when they don't I know something was off. That score I got felt good but nowhere near as good as when my buddy asked me to brew a couple for his sons graduation party and the guests killed two kegs and didn't touch the commercial stuff.

 

[kh54s10]

Now I drink this beer, and yes, I still like it but not as much as I did. The score has effectively changed my own perception of the beer.


Anyway, thanks every body. Expect a thread shortly seeking for advice on how to make this beer a good one.
Cheers!

I hope this is not just in response to the score. When you get the descriptions of what they found wrong and then look for the flaws - maybe.

So far I have had no interest in competitions. I brew what I want, when I want, I don't stick to style. My judging is simple- do I like it and how does it compare to other beers I have brewed?

 

[Brewsader1]

My two cents...If you have a good sense for taste, style and off flavors, odds are it's not a 20 point beer. However, if they described off flavors that you are unfamiliar with, it's worth being open about it. I have started finding that english styles are not the best known to a lot of palates. I recently entered a bitter that was on the dark end of the style, but myself and a few in the homebrew club put it at 38-40 in a tasting (they were unaware it was a homebrew and/or mine). Entered into a comp and was reviewed by 3 bjcp judges including one of them that was a brewer at the host brewery. Average of 27 (low of 24)...one said too fruity/estery, one said too much malt/caramel, and one said too hoppy and bitter. So apparently too much taste? My decision is to drink it and enjoy it, and if I submit it to another competition, I will bump the base malt and slight bitter increase to make it an ESB.

Take it with a grain of salt, taste it against the original and if you have friends that will be impartial with a good palate, try tearing it apart.

 

[jwalk4]

According to homebrew blogger Scott from "Bertus Brewery," he has had the same beer score vastly different in two different competitions at least once: a 41 and a 28, respectively. (Source: http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2011/12/homebrew-competition-tips.html)

 

[botigol]

To add onto the subjectivity theme...While stewarding there was an IPA at the next table that scored 44 (consensus between two judges). Due to such a high score, that steward poured a couple of samples after the judges were done and offered one to me. For me, it was straight up cat urine in both the aroma and the flavor. Really, it was overpowering and unpleasant. Who's right? Was it nearly a world-class beer or was it a dumper?

 

[unviewtiful]

Just as another point on score variation, my brewing partner (my dad) and I separately submitted entries of the same beer from the same batch bottled at the same time off the same keg just to see how consistent the judging was.

The two entries were judged at the same table and back to back in the flight but there was difference of 7 points between the two. The score sheets seemed to note the same characteristics of the beer, but for whatever reason the 2nd one of ours they considered those characteristics as flaws.The scores were 41 and 34 so it's not like they thought the second one was completely flawed, but it was still interesting to see how subjective the whole thing is.

The main takeaway from this is that you can't take the number scores as gospel. Hopefully the judges gave you decent comments about what they picked up from the beer and you can use that to improve.

 

[rmyurick]

Maybe they just got a gusher bottle. Could be over-attenuated for style--i.e. maybe too alcoholic. How was carb. level? They seem to put a lot of attention on that & appearance.

 

[Coathanger]

I've never entered a competition so I don't have any experience to offer you on that front, but I definitely second most of what I'm reading here:
1) You obviously enjoyed it, and have the knowledge of last brews you've made. So good for you - it doesn't sound like it was a bad brew at all, and
2) Enter it into other competitions to compare scores

Short of waiting for the comments, it's the best you can do. Good work for even entering!

 

[sboyajian]

I am waiting on results from my most recent competition.. my pale ale scored a 14.. yes, a 14.

Now, confused by that, I immediately went downstairs and poured a glass. It's crystal clear. Hoppy. Not overly bitter. Honestly, it's a beautiful pale ale.

My guess is something happened in the bottle. Since I bottle from keg, it could be oxidation, maybe bottle infection? Not sure, I'll have to wait until I get the score sheets back.

The score sheets will tell all. Hopefully they clear it up for you.

For all I know, the beer got mixed up and they drank an imperial stout thinking it was mine lol

 

[p_p]

So I finally got the scoresheets for this beer. Two judges looked at it, "provisional" and "novice" (not sure what that means) and gave 21 and 18 points respectively.

The judge that scored 21 did't highlighted any obvious technical mistakes but obviously wasn't impressed. Indicated that the caramel flavours dominated the beer, esters were prominent and that the body was on the thin side for the style.

The judge that scored 18 indicated oxidation and off flavours due to yeast issues. Mentioned that either the pitch or the temperature was wrong and marked it as flawn and lifeless.

Both of them rated the beer low in appearance, and I would have done that too given it is cloudy when chilled (even at cellar temp)

Like I mentioned, this beer is a Fullers 1845 clone, a beer that was created to celebrate their 150 aniversary. The recipe was inspired by their past and does carry quite some flavour from the 10% 60L crystal and 10% Amber on top the British Maris otter.

I don't think there were fermentation issues. The pitch aimed for 300bn cells of wlp002 from a 1.8ltr starter, slurry pitched at 16c and slowly rising to 21 over a period of three days. 5gal.

I struggle to understand what to do to improve it and I wonder if the flavours of this beer are just a bit too extreme for the style, even if listed as one of the examples in the BJCP guide. Or maybe it is a difficult beer to get just right and if it is not just right, all the imperfections come to light.

If I post the brewsheet, would you mind having a look?

Thanks for the help.
P


(The other beer I entered did very well, hurray, but that don't matter, the bad beer matters the bad beer must be understood and made good, good beers don't haunt people at night, bad beers do, bad beers are baaad)

 

[LLBeanJ]

Given the rank of the judges, I think this is a case where neither of them have much experience and were unfamiliar with the style, so they winged it. I wouldn't obsess over it.

 

[eyebrau]

Agreed. Most competitions I've judged they make every effort to have at least one certified or higher ranked judge in every pair. They may have been short on certified judges. Neither provisional rank nor novice judges have passed their test, so honestly, I wouldn't sweat this too much. Submit it to more competitions if you can and get more/better feedback.

 

[Yesfan]

Given the rank of the judges, I think this is a case where neither of them have much experience and were unfamiliar with the style, so they winged it. I wouldn't obsess over it.

From what I've read in this thread, I have to agree. Seems the OP brewed a great beer and was the victim of "bad judgement" (sorry for the pun).


I had an Eldorado Smash I entered that didn't do as well as I had hoped. My cousin had a Belgian Quad he entered that got rave reviews from within the club but didn't do so well in a comp a month later. He still fumes about that one from time to time.

We are our worst critics. I think in the end, if you know your beer is good, your friends know it's good, then I wouldn't let the score sheet tell me different. It's not like you're going to dump a great beer because someone else told you it tasted bad.

That last pint of my Eldorado tasted just as good as the first. Your beer shouldn't be any different.

Brew on.

 

[SGTSparty]

By the way, brewing Yoopers Oatmeal Stout recipe has won me three first place awards in large competitions. You should try it!

Hopefully this is a good luck charm, I started reading this to prep myself for getting eviscerated in my first comp this weekend, but one of my entries was Yoopers oatmeal stout recipe so maybe that will help

 

[rmyurick]

Might be helpful to go to a local HB club meeting and get some opinions there.

 

[mwilcox]

the worst score I've ever received, 14.5, came on what I consider the best beer I've ever made. Sometimes (stuff) happens and sometimes the judges are wrong. *shrug*

I also don't really agree with some of the terms that go along with the BJCP score ranges.
"Good (21 - 29): Misses the mark on style and/or minor flaws.
Fair (14 - 20): Off flavors/aromas or major style deficiencies. Unpleasant.

...is 14 really "fair"? I don't think so. That's a very bad score IMO. I wouldn't call 21 "good" either.

when I think about how good a beer is, just pulling some numbers out of the air, I think 0-10 is pretty much undrinkable, 11-18 is highly Problematic, 19-26 is Fair, 27-32 Good, 33-38 Very Good, 39-44 Excellent, and 45+ is whatever amazing deliciously-awesome incredible superlative you prefer.

not that it matters; the best will win mini-BOS regardless of score.
cheers--
--Michael

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

I recently volunteered to be a steward at a competition it gave some interesting insight to the process. I was impressed that the judges spent as much time evaluating the not-so good entries as they did the better entries. When you get your score sheet notice when you entry was tasted. The later in the flight/later in the day the more fatigued the judges might be, which could make them harsher or the opposite. Even the judges who had entries were often surprised their beer didn't do at well as they might of expected. Personally, I don't think I have the palet to be a judge, and I certainly wouldn't like evaluating a "bad beer", chalk it up to the human factor, if you enjoy your beer that is what matters most. If your friends enjoy your beer that's encouraging feedback, but bear in mind your friends aren't thinking about how it should look and taste because of the style, that's what judges are doing. And yes I have also gotten less than rave reviews on a beer I thought was quite good.

 

[Mainer]

This thread is why I've hesitated to enter any competitions. I think my Berliner Weisse is excellent. Like really excellent. Top-notch. It's the only beer I brew that I think is better than many commercial examples. But what if I put it in a competition and it gets a crappy score? Would it change how I drink it? Would it make me less proud of my accomplishments? Would I start taking less joy in my hobby? Knowing the kind of person I am, I think I would.

 

[Miraculix]

This thread is why I've hesitated to enter any competitions. I think my Berliner Weisse is excellent. Like really excellent. Top-notch. It's the only beer I brew that I think is better than many commercial examples. But what if I put it in a competition and it gets a crappy score? Would it change how I drink it? Would it make me less proud of my accomplishments? Would I start taking less joy in my hobby? Knowing the kind of person I am, I think I would.

I agree 100%. In addition, I think that it is simply impossible to judge something like a beer objectively, so at the end the result reflects the mood /preferences of the person judging, rather than the beer itself.

So why bother about that?

 

[Mainer]

I agree 100%. In addition, I think that it is simply impossible to judge something like a beer objectively, so at the end the result reflects the mood /preferences of the person judging, rather than the beer itself.

So why bother about that?

I can see why other people do it, if they really want constructive criticism and continuous improvement. But I'm not that thick-skinned. Sometimes I just want to be proud of my good-enough beer.

 

[Yesfan]

I can see why other people do it, if they really want constructive criticism and continuous improvement. But I'm not that thick-skinned. Sometimes I just want to be proud of my good-enough beer.

Competitions are a 2 way street too. I had a brown ale that I knew had some flaws. IMO, the best way to get an honest opinion was to enter it in a comp so the judges wouldn't know who brewed it and give an unbiased (good or bad) of your beer.

I don't enter every beer I brew, but if I think it's a winner, I'll enter it. If I have hit some sort of road block, I'll do the same if I'm looking for a possible answer.

 

[trav77]

the worst score I've ever received, 14.5, came on what I consider the best beer I've ever made. Sometimes (stuff) happens and sometimes the judges are wrong. *shrug*

I also don't really agree with some of the terms that go along with the BJCP score ranges.
"Good (21 - 29): Misses the mark on style and/or minor flaws.
Fair (14 - 20): Off flavors/aromas or major style deficiencies. Unpleasant.

...is 14 really "fair"? I don't think so. That's a very bad score IMO. I wouldn't call 21 "good" either.

when I think about how good a beer is, just pulling some numbers out of the air, I think 0-10 is pretty much undrinkable, 11-18 is highly Problematic, 19-26 is Fair, 27-32 Good, 33-38 Very Good, 39-44 Excellent, and 45+ is whatever amazing deliciously-awesome incredible superlative you prefer.

not that it matters; the best will win mini-BOS regardless of score.
cheers--
--Michael

+1 on that. It really leaves a very coarse resolution at the top end. Especially since it's very rare to use the full scale. Guidelines are to not score anything < 13 and it's pretty rare to get anything >45... even so I would challenge most judges to repeatably distinguish a 40 from a 50. So really the "50" point range is effectively about 30-35 points wide.

 

[billl]

I don't think it's been noted yet, but the style range is pretty wide here. If you put up a 6% 33IBU fullers clone against a bunch of other entries at 8% and 60IBU, it wouldn't be shocking to have many judges say it feels thin and/or underwhelming in comparison. That's doesn't mean the beer isn't good/great on it's own though.