Any (US) Electricians Here?

Williams 728
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The OH wire currently serving the quonset hut only has 3 wires, therefore installing a 4-wire cable from the weatherhead to the sub-panel would serve no purpose. If the plan is to upgrade that OH wire to a 4 conductor wire in the future, then installing a 4 wire cable from the weatherhead to the sub-panel at this time would make sense.
 
Homebrew Harry said:
Some people don't want to pay for that 4th wire. GFCI breakers are useless with a 3 wire run. Some new sub panels do not come with a separate bus for ground and neutral so guys will put them both on the same bus and that will not work.
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Yeah, the neutral and ground are bonded in this panel. I suspected that was going to be an issue.

Homebrew Harry said:
I have an old Alice too ! Mine is a 25hp trike. Is yours a trike ?
Edit : Mine has been nursed a lot too from the looks of it, haha
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No idea what year this is but it's not a trike.
IMG_2203.jpg

I need to find a replacement turnbuckle for the top of that hitch somewhere.

InspectorJon said:
I was just reading this again…should say conductor sizing as relates to voltage drop.
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I knew what you meant. :) It's not actually that long a run, but I will be sure to take the length into account when I update it.
 
Sub panels USUALLY don't have buss and groundseparate, and gfci does work without a 4th wire. You NEVER have a 4th wire to a gfci. Put in new panel, use same wire that is the right size and go for it. Way too much worry about insulation and old wire overhead.
 
Brewdog80 said:
Sub panels USUALLY don't have buss and groundseparate, and gfci does work without a 4th wire. You NEVER have a 4th wire to a gfci. Put in new panel, use same wire that is the right size and go for it. Way too much worry about insulation and old wire overhead.
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I am not sure what you mean by buss and grounds separate. Current NEC requires all subpanels to have a four wire feed if there is a 240 volt feed to the panel (two hots, one neutral and one ground); neutral bus bars and equipment grounding bus bars must be separated and isolated from each other in all subpanels. This has been true in most cases since equipment grounding became part of the code in the mid 1960's. Until maybe 10 years ago it was accepted to treat a panel in a detached building like a main panel and join the neutrals and grounds together again. That is no longer allowed.

All GFCI receptacles have grounding lugs that should be used if an equipment grounding conductor is present. It is true that GFCI technology does not need a grounding conductor in the circuitry to work. It is an acceptable practice to install a GFCI receptacle on an old, ungrounded circuit. For what it is worth, GFCI protection is to protect people from shock injury or death. Circuit breakers protect wires from over heating and causing fires.
 
Well, I found an electrician who seemed to know his stuff. He seems to have a combination of code knowledge and knowing what an old Farm's power looks like. He checked the box and the service. I've got 6 AWG coming in so it will handle the 50A I need for now with no surplus for other things in the barn (like the compressor.) That will have to be good enough for now. When I'm ready to invest some more, I'll bring in a new service from the pole to feed the two outbuildings.

I've still to figure out what I need to do for the service where we will build. I think I'll be paying to bring in a 1/2 mile of poles, so that will be cheap I'm sure.

Homebrew Harry said:
Mine looks just like that one, but the front tires are real close together and they lean out.
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Yeah, these are wide. The FIL says he thinks it's a '52. He's had it since '62 or so. One of these days I might get him to give me a check-ride on it so I can work it if needed.
 
Brewdog80 said:
Sub panels USUALLY don't have buss and groundseparate, and gfci does work without a 4th wire. You NEVER have a 4th wire to a gfci. Put in new panel, use same wire that is the right size and go for it. Way too much worry about insulation and old wire overhead.
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That's because they sell the busses separately and have to be installed. Yes some guys will work around the issue, but it will not be up to code. A hot tub for instance needs a dedicated ground wire. If the sub panel does not have a neutral bus, there is no place to attach the white wire from the gfci breaker. I have seen guys put it on the ground and it will shut off. Then they just disconnect it and leave. Yes it may still work, but you won't get an electrician who values his work to leave it that way.
 
While there are obviously a lot of electricians who do give a darn about doing a good job - there are also a lot who do not. In some areas, it's not a matter of hiring the right Electrician, but having ANY electrician available. It's a 30-mile drive from the shop to the farm here for the closest one. So, it pays to be an educated consumer.
 
Sorry to revive this one but with the same setup I want to replace that load panel. Does anyone have any recommendations? Right now it's a Square D with QO130 breakers in it. There are only a few so if I have to replace them that's not going to be too expensive.

Then I also noticed an old ground stake, disconnected of course. Keeping in mind that this building is served by three wires, should I ground that box right there at the building as well?
 
I'm not an electrician, but I studied the NEC (1993 version, I think) when I upgraded the service in my house and put a subpanel in my detached garage. Back then, you could run 3 wires to a subpanel in a detached building; it was treated as its own service (had to be rated as Service Equipment) and the building had its own ground electrode system. That's how my garage is wired up with overhead "Periwinkle" aluminum cable, and it passed inspection. But that's not allowed anymore; I'm not sure when they changed it. Overhead aluminum is still fine but not the 3 wires; you'll need 4 and so I assume the neutral bus and ground bus will not be connected together in the subpanel. Connect the ground bus to that old electrode with a #6 or #4 bare copper wire, or drive a new one and connect to that. The only reason I can think of to use #4 instead of #6 for the grounding wire is if the wire is subject to abuse, like getting hit with a weedeater or something; #6 wire will need protection and #4 does not. (but maybe this has changed in the past 20 years)

You're probably past this point, but when you connect large copper wires to large aluminum wires, you need a properly-rated connector. (there should never be a need to use small aluminum wire, if it even still exists) I don't remember if that rating is ALCU or ALR/CO. The ones I bought were tin- or cadmium-plated split bolts, not the normal bronze ones. Put black anti-oxide goop on it, and wrap it with weatherproof tape, and it will be good for many years. That's probably how your original wires were connected at the weatherhead. The power company has some special crimp connectors they use to connect aluminum cables, and it look neater but you don't have the right crimper.
 
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Bringing in a new overhead service is not part of the cards right now. I’ve got three wires to the barn and that’s it. The best I can do I guess is sink a new ground stake and bond the box to that.

I’m really confused why bonding common to the ground (or vice versa) is not permitted. I can see that the “common” leg for the transformer is a ground wire on every utility pole. The NEC says the conductor is separate after it is split (at the service box) but electrically it should not matter. I'm sure somewhere someone found a reason. If my reading is right, this changed in 2008 where before that the bond was allowed (as was a two-wire + ground sub-panel.)

One insurmountable obstacle at a time I guess.
 
LBussy said:
Bringing in a new overhead service is not part of the cards right now. I’ve got three wires to the barn and that’s it. The best I can do I guess is sink a new ground stake and bond the box to that.

I’m really confused why bonding common to the ground (or vice versa) is not permitted. I can see that the “common” leg for the transformer is a ground wire on every utility pole. The NEC says the conductor is separate after it is split (at the service box) but electrically it should not matter. I'm sure somewhere someone found a reason. If my reading is right, this changed in 2008 where before that the bond was allowed (as was a two-wire + ground sub-panel.)

One insurmountable obstacle at a time I guess.
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Electrical current will share any and all available paths to ground. The neutral wire is a conductor intended to carry current back to ground at the utility's neutral at the transformer. That means there is typically current potential on the neutral conductor. When you bond the neutral and equipment grounding conductors together in a subpanel the grounding conductors carry current potential, looking for a path back to ground. That path could include you if you touch anything connected to the equipment grounding system and some other path back to ground such as wet soil or a water pipe at the same time.
 
For many years we were allowed to bond neutral and grounding conductors together in a sub panel in a separate structure from where the main panel is located (as @z-bob said above). In that case the 240 volt sub panel had a three wire feed. This was only allowed if there were no other ground paths back to the main structure such as phone wiring or water pipes. I think the code changed maybe 15 years ago. Codes change when enough documented cases of problems are presented to the code council to justify the change. It is not just stuff engineers imagined might happen. However, it was allowed for decades and I assume there were very few instances of injury. So if one wants to wire it the old way I guess that would depend on ones tolerance for risk.

Some cars have more air bags than others. Older ones have no air bags. Really old cars have no seat belts. Compliance with code reduces one's exposure to risk. A three wire feed will work. A four wire feed is safer.
 
InspectorJon said:
This was only allowed if there were no other ground paths back to the main structure such as phone wiring or water pipes.
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Thanks for mentioning that part, I'd forgotten it. There's also the danger that someone adds a ground path later; that perhaps is what prompted the rule change.

Let's supposed OP is going to use the old conductors and not run a separate ground wire. (the safety ground does not have to be run along with the current-carrying conductors when upgrading old work) I assume the risk can be reduced by grounding really well at the outbuilding. He probably also does not have access to the rebar in concrete slab (what's that called, a UFer?) and how well are those rebars tied, etc. So should he use multiple ground electrodes? I would at least use the old electrode and add a new one in parallel. What's the rule for spacing and how you interconnect them?
 
z-bob said:
Thanks for mentioning that part, I'd forgotten it. There's also the danger that someone adds a ground path later; that perhaps is what prompted the rule change.

Let's supposed OP is going to use the old conductors and not run a separate ground wire. (the safety ground does not have to be run along with the current-carrying conductors when upgrading old work) I assume the risk can be reduced by grounding really well at the outbuilding. He probably also does not have access to the rebar in concrete slab (what's that called, a UFer?) and how well are those rebars tied, etc. So should he use multiple ground electrodes? I would at least use the old electrode and add a new one in parallel. What's the rule for spacing and how you interconnect them?
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That's good advice there^. I also would use the existing and a new one. I have worked at places where you must run the ground wire unbroken through the closest clamp/rod then on to the next. In series if you will. Then they test the ground and if if doesn't pass you have to set another rod 6' away and use a new piece of unbroken ground wire(in series) and have it tested again and so on until it passes. That is around some serious dry rocky ground though.
 
I went searching for the ground rod and the wire (MAYBE a 14 ga) was broken. Of course. :)

So, I am going to hammer in a new ground rod and connect that. This is farm land so moist loam describes the soil, should ground fine. There are no wires or other types of conductor from the main house to the hut, except for that 3-wire service.

Keep in mind this is a metal building, so now I feel the need to run that lightning rod system and check it.

Yay, farm life!
 
RufusBrewer said:
If you are looking to save money, you can do the heavy lifting by pulling cables into place, mount hardware as required, etc. Hire an electrician to make the final connections verify everything is up to code.
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Definitely agree with this sweat equity approach. It's all well and good to undertake the project until something goes wrong and your insurance company says your not covered! Bring in an electrician as a CYA.
 
LBussy said:
I went searching for the ground rod and the wire (MAYBE a 14 ga) was broken. Of course. :)

So, I am going to hammer in a new ground rod and connect that. This is farm land so moist loam describes the soil, should ground fine. There are no wires or other types of conductor from the main house to the hut, except for that 3-wire service.

Keep in mind this is a metal building, so now I feel the need to run that lightning rod system and check it.

Yay, farm life!
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If an inspector sees that ground rods are hammered in they will not pass. They need to be watered in. Heres a video... the guy hammers at the end tho, haha:
 
There won't be an inspector, that's one reason he's asking here. A hammer driven ground rod will work just fine, whether it's the perfect way to do it or not. In fact I believe you can buy special cups to attach to jackhammers for driving electrodes.
 
Homebrew Harry said:
If an inspector sees that ground rods are hammered in they will not pass. They need to be watered in. Heres a video... the guy hammers at the end tho, haha:
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Maybe in Louisiana one can push a ground rod into the ground by hand. We have something known as rocks and hard soil around here. One does not need to drive it straight down. It can be laid horizontal in a 2 foot deep trench. My local jurisdictional inspector told me that.
 
It’s not that I am trying to avoid an inspector, it’s that my local inspector is a fire captain and a mechanic and a house mover and …… you guys get the idea.

I’m trying to be as safe as possible. When I speak to vendors around here I generally get the “well out here in the country” preamble.

Never heard of watering in a ground spike, also not completely sure how that is better. I’d imagine Greenlee made a $1500 hose adapter and convinced someone it was necessary. That said I have definitely bent and stuck ground rods by hammering them in so I’ll give that a try. We use them on the fences too.
 
LBussy said:
It’s not that I am trying to avoid an inspector, it’s that my local inspector is a fire captain and a mechanic and a house mover and …… you guys get the idea.

I’m trying to be as safe as possible. When I speak to vendors around here I generally get the “well out here in the country” preamble.

Never heard of watering in a ground spike, also not completely sure how that is better. I’d imagine Greenlee made a $1500 hose adapter and convinced someone it was necessary. That said I have definitely bent and stuck ground rods by hammering them in so I’ll give that a try. We use them on the fences too.
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A pressure cleaner will drill a hole in the ground faster deeper than any hammer. It's messy though, but I recommend.

The idea is to match the service ground where power enters your home. No idea how that's done where you are, but match it :)
 
We have rocks here too, haha. The reason they don't want them hammered in is that it can damage the copper cladding. I know the OP is not looking for an inspection. I have been in here from the start. I was just trying to make life easier for him. Watering in a rod is easy and it is better on the rod than the other methods just given. Even in the rocky area mentioned in my last post they will fail your inspection if there is ANY mushrooming or deformation.
 
InspectorJon said:
Maybe in Louisiana one can push a ground rod into the ground by hand. We have something known as rocks and hard soil around here. One does not need to drive it straight down. It can be laid horizontal in a 2 foot deep trench. My local jurisdictional inspector told me that.
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2 feet deep ? There is no way in Hades that I would take that advice !!
 
Fences are routinely grounded at 2' here. While there's not the same risk with a failure, having hundreds of thousands of dollars of cattle wandering tends to make people use what works.

I never realized the copper rods were clad - but that makes sense from a cost and a rigidity standpoint. In the military, we used 3 x 3' rods with threaded connectors sunk to 7-8 feet. There was an insert we put on the top of the current rod with a connector to take the brunt of the hammering. One thing about the military is that they are exceedingly risk-averse.
 
"Watering in" sounds like a good way to get the electrode started, so it's easier to reach the top to hammer it in. I haven't done that many of them but I usually use a T-post driver. You don't have to pound them all that hard.
 
Watering it in is easier and less harmful to the copper clad, but some folks like to do it the hard way regardless
 
I'm gonna keep this thread going because it has all of the information about what I have and why up top.

The way I understand a GFI, if you tie the neutral and ground together it will trip. Since this is a three-wire service, I'm wondering how I can add GFI since this is a "barn" service and sorta by default everything should probably have a GFI.

Would I use the service third wire as common and add a ground stake at the panel? The only electrical bond to the main panel is via that third bare conductor.
 
LBussy said:
I'm gonna keep this thread going because it has all of the information about what I have and why up top.

The way I understand a GFI, if you tie the neutral and ground together it will trip. Since this is a three-wire service, I'm wondering how I can add GFI since this is a "barn" service and sorta by default everything should probably have a GFI.

Would I use the service third wire as common and add a ground stake at the panel? The only electrical bond to the main panel is via that third bare conductor.
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I thought we had already established that if you have a 3-wire feed you connect the grounded wire to the neutral bus and add the bonding screw or strap to tie the ground and neutral and the service box together electrically. Run a #6 copper wire from that to the ground rod(s). White wires and bare or green wires connect to the same terminal strip. (one wire per screw unless the box specifically says you can double them; I don't know if any allow that)

You wire the GFCI exactly like you would in your house. I guess you know you can have several receptacles fed from one GFCI device? That's how my garage is wired. The garage door opener outlet is not GFCI protected, and I got around the requirement there by using a single receptacle instead of a duplex to indicate it's a special-purpose outlet.
 
z-bob said:
I thought we had already established that if you have a 3-wire feed you connect the grounded wire to the neutral bus and add the bonding screw or strap to tie the ground and neutral and the service box together electrically. Run a #6 copper wire from that to the ground rod(s).
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I guess I needed it rephrased to sink through my thick skull. I thought that bonding neutral and ground would trip the GFI. Is that only when you don’t have the box grounded as well?

z-bob said:
I guess you know you can have several receptacles fed from one GFCI device? That's how my garage is wired.
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I do - I need to look how all the outlets are wired to make sure that’s possible. I mean it should be but who knows what sort of crap has been done. If I have to replace any breakers I’ll just use GFI there.

z-bob said:
The garage door opener outlet is not GFCI protected, and I got around the requirement there by using a single receptacle instead of a duplex to indicate it's a special-purpose outlet.
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Ah that’s a good idea. Offhand I don’t remember if that’s on its own circuit or not.

I’ve discovered the only thing holding the breakers down is the cover, so I’m going to replace the box with this one I think.
 
LBussy said:
I guess I needed it rephrased to sink through my thick skull. I thought that bonding neutral and ground would trip the GFI. Is that only when you don’t have the box grounded as well?


I do - I need to look how all the outlets are wired to make sure that’s possible. I mean it should be but who knows what sort of crap has been done. If I have to replace any breakers I’ll just use GFI there.


Ah that’s a good idea. Offhand I don’t remember if that’s on its own circuit or not.

I’ve discovered the only thing holding the breakers down is the cover, so I’m going to replace the box with this one I think.
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Is this the link? Load Center, Lug, 100A, 120/240VAC, 1Ph: Circuit Breaker Panel Safety Switches: AmazonSmile: Tools & Home Improvement :)

Connecting the ground and neutral together at the panel will not trip the GFCI. (you either do that or you don't, depending on whether it's a service entrance or a subpanel, the GFCI doesn't get a say) Connecting them together at the device itself might make it trip, I don't know.
 

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