Any (US) Electricians Here?

[LBussy]

For some reason, I can't quote anything from this thread .... weird.

I realized I never changed my location so I did that. For those of you who have known me for a while - I've moved. We've literally "bought the farm" down in rural Kansas.

The last person to touch this (seems like only a few years ago) added some outlets to this load box. He was a licensed electrician who should lose his license. So, hiring an electrician, other than him having a taller ladder and the right tools, hardly seems like the safe bet. Even if I do hire an electrician it looks like I need to learn about what's wrong with this setup. That allows me to gauge his approach and be an informed consumer.

Believe me, I appreciate the cautionary tales. In my path to get where I am, I did a stint installing building controls. At that time (no idea how it is now) there were no unions for that part of commercial construction, so we were left to learn things the hard way in some cases. We did some plumbing, some electrical, and some programming depending on the day. I had my favorite screwdriver go off like a flashbulb when I was working on a VFD. So, yeah, I get it. I don't want to die. I am not going to tell you I know as much as a good electrician. I am going to tell you once I know what is supposed to be done, I can do it safely.

I'm also aware of the NEC. That's why I was looking for "the words" so I would know what to look up. Reading the NEC is not really as engaging as Steven King, so having the right terms to go searching for will help me find what I need. I also appreciate the qualified advice I've received here. A one-liner from an experienced craftsman is worth its weight in gold. Just ask @day_trippr: I learned the hard way to listen to him. When he says "Vaya con Dios" I know I am bout to screw something up.

I think my biggest problem in this project will be that I can fix one thing but the next thing up the line will be wrong. I've had these sorts of projects before. It seems like I'm going to have to survey the entire electrical system here and see what I can isolate before I can renovate it. Yay, rural living! It's looking like a trencher for the tractor will be a good investment (yes, that's a joke.)

 

[RufusBrewer]

If you are looking to save money, you can do the heavy lifting by pulling cables into place, mount hardware as required, etc. Hire an electrician to make the final connections verify everything is up to code.

 

[LBussy]

If you are looking to save money, you can do the heavy lifting by pulling cables into place, mount hardware as required, etc. Hire an electrician to make the final connections verify everything is up to code.

Aha, I can quote again!

Saving money is always a consideration, making sure it's done correctly is another. If I go to the trouble to do all the heavy lifting, that would mean I have the tools needed; which I don't right now. I'm talking things like a ladder good enough to get to that mast, cable cutters, etc. If I had those things and got all that work done, there's nothing about the connection that worries me.

That would be like designing a beer recipe, buying all the ingredients, and then letting someone else make it. The hard part is the planning. (see how I got back on beer?)

 

[Homebrew Harry]

For some reason, I can't quote anything from this thread .... weird.

I realized I never changed my location so I did that. For those of you who have known me for a while - I've moved. We've literally "bought the farm" down in rural Kansas.

The last person to touch this (seems like only a few years ago) added some outlets to this load box. He was a licensed electrician who should lose his license. So, hiring an electrician, other than him having a taller ladder and the right tools, hardly seems like the safe bet. Even if I do hire an electrician it looks like I need to learn about what's wrong with this setup. That allows me to gauge his approach and be an informed consumer.

Believe me, I appreciate the cautionary tales. In my path to get where I am, I did a stint installing building controls. At that time (no idea how it is now) there were no unions for that part of commercial construction, so we were left to learn things the hard way in some cases. We did some plumbing, some electrical, and some programming depending on the day. I had my favorite screwdriver go off like a flashbulb when I was working on a VFD. So, yeah, I get it. I don't want to die. I am not going to tell you I know as much as a good electrician. I am going to tell you once I know what is supposed to be done, I can do it safely.

I'm also aware of the NEC. That's why I was looking for "the words" so I would know what to look up. Reading the NEC is not really as engaging as Steven King, so having the right terms to go searching for will help me find what I need. I also appreciate the qualified advice I've received here. A one-liner from an experienced craftsman is worth its weight in gold. Just ask @day_trippr: I learned the hard way to listen to him. When he says "Vaya con Dios" I know I am bout to screw something up.

I think my biggest problem in this project will be that I can fix one thing but the next thing up the line will be wrong. I've had these sorts of projects before. It seems like I'm going to have to survey the entire electrical system here and see what I can isolate before I can renovate it. Yay, rural living! It's looking like a trencher for the tractor will be a good investment (yes, that's a joke.)

Have you looked into renting a small trencher ? I once saved a guy a bunch of $ and aggravation by running a big line around a building instead of moving stuff inside the building and using a lift to hang conduit up high inside. Maybe borrow or rent the tractor attachment ?

 

[LBussy]

Not looked yet - just moved down here on the 31st so I'm still finding all the things I need to do. When I was in KC I had "people" I could reach out to - I don't have that here yet. Working on it though.

 

[InspectorJon]

Reading the NEC is not really as engaging as Steven King

Well one of the more exciting parts of the NEC is grounding and bonding, very suspenseful and least understood. Seriously, if everything is grounded and bonded properly it goes a long way to preventing injury. That and ground fault protection in appropriate places (like a metal barn). One of the most confusing parts of the code is getting the equipment grounding system, grounding electrode system and bonding installation done properly for a downstream panel (subpanel) in a building that is a separate building and/or remote location from the main service panel; I believe it is referred to as a remote subpanel. You can't do it right without bringing 4 wires from the main panel. The safety concerns that require four wires have a lot to do with lightning strikes and other sources of stray current in the soil. I hear you have some lightning in Kansas.

Any new work that is done should conform with current standards. That doesn't mean you have to bring every existing thing you connect to up to code but the new installation should be compliant. So just copying what is there with new materials may not be a good idea. Many people have this mistaken concept of "grand fathered"; they think that if it was done that way originally it is OK to do it again or replace it the same as the old. Anything newly installed as an additional component or replacement component should conform with current standards.

If you want to search the NEC, some words or subjects you might need are: Service mast, service entrance, service drop, overhead conductors, weather head, conductor size, equipment grounding system, grounding electrode system, downstream panel, conduit fill (capacity). Being a long way from the main panel you should also look into conductor sizing as relates to conductor sizing.

A good internet source of information on electric code and its application is Mike Holt's Forum. They are not always so polite about conversing with folks that aren't electricians but searching the forums can yield a lot of valuable information.

If you have a farm you are going to want a tractor, right?

 

[LBussy]

Well one of the more exciting parts of the NEC is grounding and bonding, very suspenseful

I'll be sure to print that out so I can read it while on the toilet.

That and ground fault protection in appropriate places (like a metal barn).

Not a GFI to be seen plugging things in while standing on bare ground.

One of the most confusing parts of the code is getting the equipment grounding system, grounding electrode system and bonding installation done properly for a downstream panel (subpanel) in a building that is in a separate building and location than the main service panel; I believe it is referred to as a remote subpanel. You can't do it right without bringing 4 wires from the main panel.

Yeah, there are four, and I assume that was not because that was the only thing he had on the truck. I'll have a special search for that section to understand "why". I also see a lightning rod pretty darned close to that mast so I'll probably take a climb up there when I get away from the computer and see where that's grounded.

I hear you have some lightning in Kansas.

Every once in a blue moon!

Many people have this mistaken concept of "grand fathered"

Heh, it works no better for electrical codes than for anything else. I learned that the hard way some years back. I used to have my GC license and we did some work and learned the hard way about touching things that are not up to current code. Then there was a very similar issue with a gas line. We changed the service hose, then the line leaked, then we ended up working it all the way back to the meter before we got rid of leaks and could pass inspection.

If you want to search the NEC, some words or subjects you might need are:

Thank you, seriously, that helps a lot.

A good internet source of information on electric code and its application is Mike Holt's Forum.

And again, thank you. I search WAY more forums than I speak on so I am familiar with the concept of keeping my mouth shut while adults are talking. I learn a lot that way.

If you have a farm you are going to want a tractor, right?

I have one! Some Alice Chalmers that's older than me I think. One of the things "on the list" is to find parts for a turnbuckle that my father-in-law has been nursing along for a very long time.

 

[InspectorJon]

I'll have a special search for that section to understand "why".

Unfortunately the code books are very poor for understanding "why". They are mostly prescriptive, not descriptive. This leads to some people, myself included, saying "That does not make any sense to me. I'm doing it my way or the old way". I did learn from a friend that served on a panel that worked on vetting new additions to the NEC that they don't add stuff just to prevent things that they imagine could happen. There have to be a certain number of documented cases that justify making a change or adding something new.

 

[LBussy]

Unfortunately the code books are very poor for understanding "why". They are mostly prescriptive, not descriptive. This leads to some people, myself included, saying "That does not make any sense to me. I'm doing it my way or the old way". I did learn from a friend that served on a panel that worked on vetting new additions to the NEC that they don't add stuff just to prevent things that they imagine could happen. There have to be a certain number of documented cases that justify making a change or adding something new.

Yeah, that's frustrating. Maybe one of our resident EE's (I only know of one actually) could help with that. I'm stuck on a horrible call, digging trenches seems more attractive than this. Hopefully, I can do some studying here in a little while.

 

[Homebrew Harry]

.... for a downstream panel (subpanel) in a building that is a separate building and/or remote location from the main service panel; I believe it is referred to as a remote subpanel. You can't do it right without bringing 4 wires from the main panel.....

This happens a lot. Some people don't want to pay for that 4th wire. GFCI breakers are useless with a 3 wire run. Some new sub panels do not come with a separate bus for ground and neutral so guys will put them both on the same bus and that will not work. Square D sells them separately for a couple of bucks. Manufacturers save a few dollars when making them and then they make a few more $ selling you the bar (bus). Sad. It should be standard. I have gone behind certified electricians that have left neutral or ground wires disconnected in 240v applications to keep GFCI breakers from tripping. There are electrical supply houses that refuse to take returns on GFCI breakers because so many get returned as defective that are NOT defective. All because a home owner or jackleg electrician did not know to install that $2.00 strip of metal, ha.

 

[Homebrew Harry]

I have one! Some Alice Chalmers that's older than me I think...

I have an old Alice too ! Mine is a 25hp trike. Is yours a trike ?
Edit : Mine has been nursed a lot too from the looks of it, haha

 

[esdill]

The OH wire currently serving the quonset hut only has 3 wires, therefore installing a 4-wire cable from the weatherhead to the sub-panel would serve no purpose. If the plan is to upgrade that OH wire to a 4 conductor wire in the future, then installing a 4 wire cable from the weatherhead to the sub-panel at this time would make sense.

 

[InspectorJon]

Being a long way from the main panel you should also look into conductor sizing as relates to conductor sizing.

I was just reading this again…should say conductor sizing as relates to voltage drop.

 

[LBussy]

Some people don't want to pay for that 4th wire. GFCI breakers are useless with a 3 wire run. Some new sub panels do not come with a separate bus for ground and neutral so guys will put them both on the same bus and that will not work.

Yeah, the neutral and ground are bonded in this panel. I suspected that was going to be an issue.

I have an old Alice too ! Mine is a 25hp trike. Is yours a trike ?
Edit : Mine has been nursed a lot too from the looks of it, haha

No idea what year this is but it's not a trike.

I need to find a replacement turnbuckle for the top of that hitch somewhere.

I was just reading this again…should say conductor sizing as relates to voltage drop.

I knew what you meant. It's not actually that long a run, but I will be sure to take the length into account when I update it.

 

[Homebrew Harry]

View attachment 759106
I need to find a replacement turnbuckle for the top of that hitch somewhere.

Mine looks just like that one, but the front tires are real close together and they lean out.

 

[Brewdog80]

Sub panels USUALLY don't have buss and groundseparate, and gfci does work without a 4th wire. You NEVER have a 4th wire to a gfci. Put in new panel, use same wire that is the right size and go for it. Way too much worry about insulation and old wire overhead.

 

[InspectorJon]

Sub panels USUALLY don't have buss and groundseparate, and gfci does work without a 4th wire. You NEVER have a 4th wire to a gfci. Put in new panel, use same wire that is the right size and go for it. Way too much worry about insulation and old wire overhead.

I am not sure what you mean by buss and grounds separate. Current NEC requires all subpanels to have a four wire feed if there is a 240 volt feed to the panel (two hots, one neutral and one ground); neutral bus bars and equipment grounding bus bars must be separated and isolated from each other in all subpanels. This has been true in most cases since equipment grounding became part of the code in the mid 1960's. Until maybe 10 years ago it was accepted to treat a panel in a detached building like a main panel and join the neutrals and grounds together again. That is no longer allowed.

All GFCI receptacles have grounding lugs that should be used if an equipment grounding conductor is present. It is true that GFCI technology does not need a grounding conductor in the circuitry to work. It is an acceptable practice to install a GFCI receptacle on an old, ungrounded circuit. For what it is worth, GFCI protection is to protect people from shock injury or death. Circuit breakers protect wires from over heating and causing fires.

 

[LBussy]

Well, I found an electrician who seemed to know his stuff. He seems to have a combination of code knowledge and knowing what an old Farm's power looks like. He checked the box and the service. I've got 6 AWG coming in so it will handle the 50A I need for now with no surplus for other things in the barn (like the compressor.) That will have to be good enough for now. When I'm ready to invest some more, I'll bring in a new service from the pole to feed the two outbuildings.

I've still to figure out what I need to do for the service where we will build. I think I'll be paying to bring in a 1/2 mile of poles, so that will be cheap I'm sure.

Mine looks just like that one, but the front tires are real close together and they lean out.

Yeah, these are wide. The FIL says he thinks it's a '52. He's had it since '62 or so. One of these days I might get him to give me a check-ride on it so I can work it if needed.

 

[Homebrew Harry]

Sub panels USUALLY don't have buss and groundseparate, and gfci does work without a 4th wire. You NEVER have a 4th wire to a gfci. Put in new panel, use same wire that is the right size and go for it. Way too much worry about insulation and old wire overhead.

That's because they sell the busses separately and have to be installed. Yes some guys will work around the issue, but it will not be up to code. A hot tub for instance needs a dedicated ground wire. If the sub panel does not have a neutral bus, there is no place to attach the white wire from the gfci breaker. I have seen guys put it on the ground and it will shut off. Then they just disconnect it and leave. Yes it may still work, but you won't get an electrician who values his work to leave it that way.

 

[LBussy]

While there are obviously a lot of electricians who do give a darn about doing a good job - there are also a lot who do not. In some areas, it's not a matter of hiring the right Electrician, but having ANY electrician available. It's a 30-mile drive from the shop to the farm here for the closest one. So, it pays to be an educated consumer.

 

[LBussy]

Sorry to revive this one but with the same setup I want to replace that load panel. Does anyone have any recommendations? Right now it's a Square D with QO130 breakers in it. There are only a few so if I have to replace them that's not going to be too expensive.

Then I also noticed an old ground stake, disconnected of course. Keeping in mind that this building is served by three wires, should I ground that box right there at the building as well?

 

[z-bob]

I'm not an electrician, but I studied the NEC (1993 version, I think) when I upgraded the service in my house and put a subpanel in my detached garage. Back then, you could run 3 wires to a subpanel in a detached building; it was treated as its own service (had to be rated as Service Equipment) and the building had its own ground electrode system. That's how my garage is wired up with overhead "Periwinkle" aluminum cable, and it passed inspection. But that's not allowed anymore; I'm not sure when they changed it. Overhead aluminum is still fine but not the 3 wires; you'll need 4 and so I assume the neutral bus and ground bus will not be connected together in the subpanel. Connect the ground bus to that old electrode with a #6 or #4 bare copper wire, or drive a new one and connect to that. The only reason I can think of to use #4 instead of #6 for the grounding wire is if the wire is subject to abuse, like getting hit with a weedeater or something; #6 wire will need protection and #4 does not. (but maybe this has changed in the past 20 years)

You're probably past this point, but when you connect large copper wires to large aluminum wires, you need a properly-rated connector. (there should never be a need to use small aluminum wire, if it even still exists) I don't remember if that rating is ALCU or ALR/CO. The ones I bought were tin- or cadmium-plated split bolts, not the normal bronze ones. Put black anti-oxide goop on it, and wrap it with weatherproof tape, and it will be good for many years. That's probably how your original wires were connected at the weatherhead. The power company has some special crimp connectors they use to connect aluminum cables, and it look neater but you don't have the right crimper.

 

[LBussy]

Bringing in a new overhead service is not part of the cards right now. I’ve got three wires to the barn and that’s it. The best I can do I guess is sink a new ground stake and bond the box to that.

I’m really confused why bonding common to the ground (or vice versa) is not permitted. I can see that the “common” leg for the transformer is a ground wire on every utility pole. The NEC says the conductor is separate after it is split (at the service box) but electrically it should not matter. I'm sure somewhere someone found a reason. If my reading is right, this changed in 2008 where before that the bond was allowed (as was a two-wire + ground sub-panel.)

One insurmountable obstacle at a time I guess.

 

[InspectorJon]

Bringing in a new overhead service is not part of the cards right now. I’ve got three wires to the barn and that’s it. The best I can do I guess is sink a new ground stake and bond the box to that.

I’m really confused why bonding common to the ground (or vice versa) is not permitted. I can see that the “common” leg for the transformer is a ground wire on every utility pole. The NEC says the conductor is separate after it is split (at the service box) but electrically it should not matter. I'm sure somewhere someone found a reason. If my reading is right, this changed in 2008 where before that the bond was allowed (as was a two-wire + ground sub-panel.)

One insurmountable obstacle at a time I guess.

Electrical current will share any and all available paths to ground. The neutral wire is a conductor intended to carry current back to ground at the utility's neutral at the transformer. That means there is typically current potential on the neutral conductor. When you bond the neutral and equipment grounding conductors together in a subpanel the grounding conductors carry current potential, looking for a path back to ground. That path could include you if you touch anything connected to the equipment grounding system and some other path back to ground such as wet soil or a water pipe at the same time.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

look over this guys posts, he has some good information and all kinds of topics

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCB3jUEyCLRbCw7QED0vnXYg

 

[InspectorJon]

For many years we were allowed to bond neutral and grounding conductors together in a sub panel in a separate structure from where the main panel is located (as @z-bob said above). In that case the 240 volt sub panel had a three wire feed. This was only allowed if there were no other ground paths back to the main structure such as phone wiring or water pipes. I think the code changed maybe 15 years ago. Codes change when enough documented cases of problems are presented to the code council to justify the change. It is not just stuff engineers imagined might happen. However, it was allowed for decades and I assume there were very few instances of injury. So if one wants to wire it the old way I guess that would depend on ones tolerance for risk.

Some cars have more air bags than others. Older ones have no air bags. Really old cars have no seat belts. Compliance with code reduces one's exposure to risk. A three wire feed will work. A four wire feed is safer.

 

[z-bob]

This was only allowed if there were no other ground paths back to the main structure such as phone wiring or water pipes.

Thanks for mentioning that part, I'd forgotten it. There's also the danger that someone adds a ground path later; that perhaps is what prompted the rule change.

Let's supposed OP is going to use the old conductors and not run a separate ground wire. (the safety ground does not have to be run along with the current-carrying conductors when upgrading old work) I assume the risk can be reduced by grounding really well at the outbuilding. He probably also does not have access to the rebar in concrete slab (what's that called, a UFer?) and how well are those rebars tied, etc. So should he use multiple ground electrodes? I would at least use the old electrode and add a new one in parallel. What's the rule for spacing and how you interconnect them?

 

[Homebrew Harry]

Thanks for mentioning that part, I'd forgotten it. There's also the danger that someone adds a ground path later; that perhaps is what prompted the rule change.

Let's supposed OP is going to use the old conductors and not run a separate ground wire. (the safety ground does not have to be run along with the current-carrying conductors when upgrading old work) I assume the risk can be reduced by grounding really well at the outbuilding. He probably also does not have access to the rebar in concrete slab (what's that called, a UFer?) and how well are those rebars tied, etc. So should he use multiple ground electrodes? I would at least use the old electrode and add a new one in parallel. What's the rule for spacing and how you interconnect them?

That's good advice there^. I also would use the existing and a new one. I have worked at places where you must run the ground wire unbroken through the closest clamp/rod then on to the next. In series if you will. Then they test the ground and if if doesn't pass you have to set another rod 6' away and use a new piece of unbroken ground wire(in series) and have it tested again and so on until it passes. That is around some serious dry rocky ground though.

 

[LBussy]

I went searching for the ground rod and the wire (MAYBE a 14 ga) was broken. Of course.

So, I am going to hammer in a new ground rod and connect that. This is farm land so moist loam describes the soil, should ground fine. There are no wires or other types of conductor from the main house to the hut, except for that 3-wire service.

Keep in mind this is a metal building, so now I feel the need to run that lightning rod system and check it.

Yay, farm life!

 

[Control Freak]

If you are looking to save money, you can do the heavy lifting by pulling cables into place, mount hardware as required, etc. Hire an electrician to make the final connections verify everything is up to code.

Definitely agree with this sweat equity approach. It's all well and good to undertake the project until something goes wrong and your insurance company says your not covered! Bring in an electrician as a CYA.