Any (US) Electricians Here?

[Homebrew Harry]

I went searching for the ground rod and the wire (MAYBE a 14 ga) was broken. Of course.

So, I am going to hammer in a new ground rod and connect that. This is farm land so moist loam describes the soil, should ground fine. There are no wires or other types of conductor from the main house to the hut, except for that 3-wire service.

Keep in mind this is a metal building, so now I feel the need to run that lightning rod system and check it.

Yay, farm life!

If an inspector sees that ground rods are hammered in they will not pass. They need to be watered in. Heres a video... the guy hammers at the end tho, haha:

 

[z-bob]

There won't be an inspector, that's one reason he's asking here. A hammer driven ground rod will work just fine, whether it's the perfect way to do it or not. In fact I believe you can buy special cups to attach to jackhammers for driving electrodes.

 

[InspectorJon]

If an inspector sees that ground rods are hammered in they will not pass. They need to be watered in. Heres a video... the guy hammers at the end tho, haha:

Maybe in Louisiana one can push a ground rod into the ground by hand. We have something known as rocks and hard soil around here. One does not need to drive it straight down. It can be laid horizontal in a 2 foot deep trench. My local jurisdictional inspector told me that.

 

[LBussy]

It’s not that I am trying to avoid an inspector, it’s that my local inspector is a fire captain and a mechanic and a house mover and …… you guys get the idea.

I’m trying to be as safe as possible. When I speak to vendors around here I generally get the “well out here in the country” preamble.

Never heard of watering in a ground spike, also not completely sure how that is better. I’d imagine Greenlee made a $1500 hose adapter and convinced someone it was necessary. That said I have definitely bent and stuck ground rods by hammering them in so I’ll give that a try. We use them on the fences too.

 

[passedpawn]

It’s not that I am trying to avoid an inspector, it’s that my local inspector is a fire captain and a mechanic and a house mover and …… you guys get the idea.

I’m trying to be as safe as possible. When I speak to vendors around here I generally get the “well out here in the country” preamble.

Never heard of watering in a ground spike, also not completely sure how that is better. I’d imagine Greenlee made a $1500 hose adapter and convinced someone it was necessary. That said I have definitely bent and stuck ground rods by hammering them in so I’ll give that a try. We use them on the fences too.

A pressure cleaner will drill a hole in the ground faster deeper than any hammer. It's messy though, but I recommend.

The idea is to match the service ground where power enters your home. No idea how that's done where you are, but match it

 

[LBussy]

A pressure cleaner will drill a hole in the ground faster deeper than any hammer.

This sounds like telling me to pee on the fence to see if it’s live.

 

[Homebrew Harry]

We have rocks here too, haha. The reason they don't want them hammered in is that it can damage the copper cladding. I know the OP is not looking for an inspection. I have been in here from the start. I was just trying to make life easier for him. Watering in a rod is easy and it is better on the rod than the other methods just given. Even in the rocky area mentioned in my last post they will fail your inspection if there is ANY mushrooming or deformation.

 

[Homebrew Harry]

Maybe in Louisiana one can push a ground rod into the ground by hand. We have something known as rocks and hard soil around here. One does not need to drive it straight down. It can be laid horizontal in a 2 foot deep trench. My local jurisdictional inspector told me that.

2 feet deep ? There is no way in Hades that I would take that advice !!

 

[passedpawn]

No glacial activity in FL, so no rocks. Maybe pressure cleaner won't work up there.

 

[InspectorJon]

2 feet deep ? There is no way in Hades that I would take that advice !!

Same principle as using rebar in a foundation. Probably not a good idea in places where the soil is very dry but most places have soil moisture at 24 inches.

 

[LBussy]

Fences are routinely grounded at 2' here. While there's not the same risk with a failure, having hundreds of thousands of dollars of cattle wandering tends to make people use what works.

I never realized the copper rods were clad - but that makes sense from a cost and a rigidity standpoint. In the military, we used 3 x 3' rods with threaded connectors sunk to 7-8 feet. There was an insert we put on the top of the current rod with a connector to take the brunt of the hammering. One thing about the military is that they are exceedingly risk-averse.

 

[z-bob]

"Watering in" sounds like a good way to get the electrode started, so it's easier to reach the top to hammer it in. I haven't done that many of them but I usually use a T-post driver. You don't have to pound them all that hard.

 

[Homebrew Harry]

Watering it in is easier and less harmful to the copper clad, but some folks like to do it the hard way regardless

 

[LBussy]

I'm gonna keep this thread going because it has all of the information about what I have and why up top.

The way I understand a GFI, if you tie the neutral and ground together it will trip. Since this is a three-wire service, I'm wondering how I can add GFI since this is a "barn" service and sorta by default everything should probably have a GFI.

Would I use the service third wire as common and add a ground stake at the panel? The only electrical bond to the main panel is via that third bare conductor.

 

[z-bob]

I'm gonna keep this thread going because it has all of the information about what I have and why up top.

The way I understand a GFI, if you tie the neutral and ground together it will trip. Since this is a three-wire service, I'm wondering how I can add GFI since this is a "barn" service and sorta by default everything should probably have a GFI.

Would I use the service third wire as common and add a ground stake at the panel? The only electrical bond to the main panel is via that third bare conductor.

I thought we had already established that if you have a 3-wire feed you connect the grounded wire to the neutral bus and add the bonding screw or strap to tie the ground and neutral and the service box together electrically. Run a #6 copper wire from that to the ground rod(s). White wires and bare or green wires connect to the same terminal strip. (one wire per screw unless the box specifically says you can double them; I don't know if any allow that)

You wire the GFCI exactly like you would in your house. I guess you know you can have several receptacles fed from one GFCI device? That's how my garage is wired. The garage door opener outlet is not GFCI protected, and I got around the requirement there by using a single receptacle instead of a duplex to indicate it's a special-purpose outlet.

 

[LBussy]

I thought we had already established that if you have a 3-wire feed you connect the grounded wire to the neutral bus and add the bonding screw or strap to tie the ground and neutral and the service box together electrically. Run a #6 copper wire from that to the ground rod(s).

I guess I needed it rephrased to sink through my thick skull. I thought that bonding neutral and ground would trip the GFI. Is that only when you don’t have the box grounded as well?

I guess you know you can have several receptacles fed from one GFCI device? That's how my garage is wired.

I do - I need to look how all the outlets are wired to make sure that’s possible. I mean it should be but who knows what sort of crap has been done. If I have to replace any breakers I’ll just use GFI there.

The garage door opener outlet is not GFCI protected, and I got around the requirement there by using a single receptacle instead of a duplex to indicate it's a special-purpose outlet.

Ah that’s a good idea. Offhand I don’t remember if that’s on its own circuit or not.

I’ve discovered the only thing holding the breakers down is the cover, so I’m going to replace the box with this one I think.

 

[z-bob]

I guess I needed it rephrased to sink through my thick skull. I thought that bonding neutral and ground would trip the GFI. Is that only when you don’t have the box grounded as well?


I do - I need to look how all the outlets are wired to make sure that’s possible. I mean it should be but who knows what sort of crap has been done. If I have to replace any breakers I’ll just use GFI there.


Ah that’s a good idea. Offhand I don’t remember if that’s on its own circuit or not.

I’ve discovered the only thing holding the breakers down is the cover, so I’m going to replace the box with this one I think.

Is this the link? Load Center, Lug, 100A, 120/240VAC, 1Ph: Circuit Breaker Panel Safety Switches: AmazonSmile: Tools & Home Improvement

Connecting the ground and neutral together at the panel will not trip the GFCI. (you either do that or you don't, depending on whether it's a service entrance or a subpanel, the GFCI doesn't get a say) Connecting them together at the device itself might make it trip, I don't know.

 

[LBussy]

Is this the link?

That’s the one. I guess I blew up the link, huh?