All Mosaic Recipe

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Planning an all-mosaic NEIPA 5.5 gallon batch and looking to get any feedback I can get. 4th all-grain batch so quite new to it. Mostly curious about water profile and hop amounts/timing.

Water Profile:
Ca: ~125ppm
Cl: ~150ppm
So4: ~150ppm

Imperial Juice x 2 packs (based on Brewers Friend calc)

Grain:
11lbs Rahr Pale Malt
2lbs Flaked Oat
1lbs Weyermann Carafoam
1lbs white wheat

Hops:
Whirlpool <170 degrees: 4 oz Mosaic pellets
Dry Hop 1: biotransformation: 2 oz Mosaic CRYO
Dry Hop 2: (day after DH1): 2 oz Mosaic CRYO
Dry Hop 3: (2-3 days before keg): 4 oz Mosaic

Thoughts? A lot of hops, I know, but I've heard home brewers have difficulty getting same hop utilization as commercial counterparts.

 

[RCope]

Water: 2 or 3:1 CL:SO4 (ppm matters so 150:50 or 200:75) My last NEIPA was 177:73. Add some NaCl, 1 or 2 gms. Some go higher. pH 5.3ish.

Grain bill: I'd just drop the carafoam to .5 lb. I prefer malted oats over flaked. Everything else is fine.

Hops: I'd change everything : You have the equivalent of 16 oz of hops in this recipe. That's way overkill and home brewing hop utilization is excellent.

A small bittering charge at 60 (.5 oz of Warrior or Magnum)

A 5 or 10 minute addition of 1 oz Mosaic. I like the depth of flavor that this adds, especially with a single hop. 3 or 4 oz in the WP is fine. I use 185-170 deg for 20 min, there is no consensus on this...

No biotransformation addition...if you must then 1 oz of standard Mosaic.

Soft crash after fermentation is done for a day or two then add the dry hop...I'd use 1.2 oz per gallon. You can add more but you get diminishing returns and a higher risk of hop burn. Remember that the cryo is basically doubled. I let it free rise for a day(usually makes it to 65ish) then cold crash for 2-3 days. Keg, force carb, let it rest for a week or two, then enjoy! YMMV...

Minimize cold side oxygen exposure to zero (if possible).

You may enjoy the NEIPA thread...Cheers! Rick (And welcome to HomeBrewTalk)

 

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Thanks, Rick! Appreciate the tips.

Curious to ask the "why" on some of the changes. Is there a reason to dry hop only once and avoid the biotranformative dry hop altogether? I ask because it seems like a popular and commonly suggested method.

Any particular Ca range on your ideal recipe? I'm projected to hit roughly 120 ppm for Calcium.

Also, any particular ppm range on NaCl? Was going to add 1-2 per your suggestion which put my water at approximately 50 ppm using fine sea salt. Seems like it should be under 100 ppm from what I'm seeing.

And YMMV?

 

[Yooper]

Any particular Ca range on your ideal recipe? I'm projected to hit roughly 120 ppm for Calcium.

Ideally, under 100 ppm or so.
To avoid a minerally flavor, I'd definitely reduce the chloride to under 100 ppm OR the sulfate so that you don't have them both over 100 ppm.

 

[Switchback]

Ideally, under 100 ppm or so.
To avoid a minerally flavor, I'd definitely reduce the chloride to under 100 ppm OR the sulfate so that you don't have them both over 100 ppm.

Thanks, Yooper. Greatly appreciated.

My adjusted projected water profile is as follows. Only concern that I need to research is the lactic acid (88%) additions at 7.5 ml to get my mash pH to 5.35. Not sure if that impacts flavor at that level, or if aciduated malt is a viable alternative.

Ca: 85.4 ppm
Mg+2: 9.0 ppm
Na+2: 54.0
Cl: 157.8 ppm
SO4: 50.8
pH: 5.35

 

[RCope]

So early on I thought that dry hopping during active fermentation was inherent to the style. Some do that still but many find that when yeast drops it takes the hop compounds with it, and active CO2 release steals away the aroma. It's much more complicated than that but that's the cliff notes version. Biotransformation is a thing, and active fermentation hopping minimizes oxidation.

The soft crash drops most of the yeast and 2-4 days is all that is necessary to extract the hop compounds you want.

Double dry hopping increases the risk of O2 ingress and is not worth it (for me). I've done it, though.

If you want to go deep down the rabbit hole, read Scott Janish' book on the style, "The New IPA".
And the thread here titled "Northeast" style IPA is full of experienced brewers with tons of insight. (It may take awhile to get through, though).

Your water profile is fine...just a bit more Na than mine (I build from RO water). Some go even higher so it should be OK. I use acidulated malt to adjust the pH, but many use acid additions.

YMMV=Your mileage may vary

 

[Switchback]

So early on I thought that dry hopping during active fermentation was inherent to the style. Some do that still but many find that when yeast drops it takes the hop compounds with it, and active CO2 release steals away the aroma. It's much more complicated than that but that's the cliff notes version. Biotransformation is a thing, and active fermentation hopping minimizes oxidation.

The soft crash drops most of the yeast and 2-4 days is all that is necessary to extract the hop compounds you want.

Double dry hopping increases the risk of O2 ingress and is not worth it (for me). I've done it, though.

If you want to go deep down the rabbit hole, read Scott Janish' book on the style, "The New IPA".
And the thread here titled "Northeast" style IPA is full of experienced brewers with tons of insight. (It may take awhile to get through, though).

Your water profile is fine...just a bit more Na than mine (I build from RO water). Some go even higher so it should be OK. I use acidulated malt to adjust the pH, but many use acid additions.

YMMV=Your mileage may vary

Thanks, Rick! All great information and greatly appreciated. Absolutely will grab Janish' book. Recently read "Water" (although I feel I need to re-read it 99 more times) and am finishing "Yeast" so I'll definitely work through that one next.

 

[Switchback]

So early on I thought that dry hopping during active fermentation was inherent to the style. Some do that still but many find that when yeast drops it takes the hop compounds with it, and active CO2 release steals away the aroma. It's much more complicated than that but that's the cliff notes version. Biotransformation is a thing, and active fermentation hopping minimizes oxidation.

The soft crash drops most of the yeast and 2-4 days is all that is necessary to extract the hop compounds you want.

Double dry hopping increases the risk of O2 ingress and is not worth it (for me). I've done it, though.

If you want to go deep down the rabbit hole, read Scott Janish' book on the style, "The New IPA".
And the thread here titled "Northeast" style IPA is full of experienced brewers with tons of insight. (It may take awhile to get through, though).

Your water profile is fine...just a bit more Na than mine (I build from RO water). Some go even higher so it should be OK. I use acidulated malt to adjust the pH, but many use acid additions.

YMMV=Your mileage may vary

Hi Again,
I'm getting ready to start the soft crash/cold crash/kegging process. Would you be willing to share a little more detail regarding soft crash/cold crash timing and temperatures?

Lots of information regarding cold crash but not seeing a lot regarding "soft crash". Guess I'm wondering what temp to drop to, over how many days for soft/cold crash.

 

[RCope]

I soft crash to 55 degrees for about 24 hours, then add my dry hop with a good flush. I then set the temp at 68 degrees. I live in South Florida so there is always enough warmth to not require a heating element, some actually warm the wort after the soft crash, but I don't think that's necessary. The next day I crash to 35 degrees and keep it there for 2 days then keg. So 3 days total dry hop contact time.

With large dry hop additions (my max is about 6-7 oz), some will split the addition a couple days apart. I do not have the capability to dump trub/yeast/spent hops (Ss Brewtech brew buckets), so I usually just do the one addition.

 

[couchsending]

Hi Again,
I'm getting ready to start the soft crash/cold crash/kegging process. Would you be willing to share a little more detail regarding soft crash/cold crash timing and temperatures?

Lots of information regarding cold crash but not seeing a lot regarding "soft crash". Guess I'm wondering what temp to drop to, over how many days for soft/cold crash.

What are you fermenting in? Do you have a way to keep head pressure on your fermenter while crashing? If no then I wouldn’t do it. Just add the hops after fermentation has completed and yeast has started to flocc. I’d leave them for at least 4 days or even longer. Dry hopping at elevated temps can result in hop creep. Unfortunately there’s no way to tell if it’ll happen or not. You need to test gravity and ideally do a forced test for diacetyl.

If you can prevent o2 from entering your fermenter when crashing just wait until fermentation is complete and your diacetyl rest is done.

Cool to 55.

Wait 24-36 hours and remove yeast if you can.

If you can’t just add hops and leave below 60. Again increasing the temp runs the risk of running into hop creep and diacetyl formation. Keep it around or just below 60 for 2-4 days then continue cooling, condition and keg your beer.

 

[jready]

For what it’s worth Lone Pints Yellow rose is an excellent single hop single malt example for mosaic and there is an excellent clone on here for it.

 

[Switchback]

What are you fermenting in? Do you have a way to keep head pressure on your fermenter while crashing? If no then I wouldn’t do it. Just add the hops after fermentation has completed and yeast has started to flocc. I’d leave them for at least 4 days or even longer. Dry hopping at elevated temps can result in hop creep. Unfortunately there’s no way to tell if it’ll happen or not. You need to test gravity and ideally do a forced test for diacetyl.

If you can prevent o2 from entering your fermenter when crashing just wait until fermentation is complete and your diacetyl rest is done.

Cool to 55.

Wait 24-36 hours and remove yeast if you can.

If you can’t just add hops and leave below 60. Again increasing the temp runs the risk of running into hop creep and diacetyl formation. Keep it around or just below 60 for 2-4 days then continue cooling, condition and keg your beer.

Recently bought a kegerator that doubles as a fermentation chamber and fermentor is a Spike Flex+. The gravity has been stable for three days and has been in primary for two and a half weeks so I am going to start the soft crash process soon. Will follow that with dry hop, cold crash, kegging and diacetyl rest.

I was seeing the start of "suck back" in the blow off tubing so i removed, purged with CO2 and now have about 2 PSI running into the fermentor.

Hopefully I get more flavor during the dry hop (or perceived flavor via aroma) because I'm not picking up those bright/juicy NEIPA flavors that I am striving for. I know of two potential issues to correct next time, but I doubt they would cause the beer to lack those qualities. One, I whirlpool with a large spoon so possibly a bit of hot-side oxidation and two, I pitched at 79° (got it down to ~73° in two hours after pitching but not ideal. Will cool to pitching temperature in fermentation chamber next time. Maybe the beer will get there with dry hop and conditioning, but still a bit surprised I can't pick up on those qualities yet.

As always, thank you for any input you can provide.

 

[Switchback]

For what it’s worth Lone Pints Yellow rose is an excellent single hop single malt example for mosaic and there is an excellent clone on here for it.

New to the forum but will see if I can find this. Thanks!

 

[Switchback]

I soft crash to 55 degrees for about 24 hours, then add my dry hop with a good flush. I then set the temp at 68 degrees. I live in South Florida so there is always enough warmth to not require a heating element, some actually warm the wort after the soft crash, but I don't think that's necessary. The next day I crash to 35 degrees and keep it there for 2 days then keg. So 3 days total dry hop contact time.

With large dry hop additions (my max is about 6-7 oz), some will split the addition a couple days apart. I do not have the capability to dump trub/yeast/spent hops (Ss Brewtech brew buckets), so I usually just do the one addition.

Appreciate the additional details!

 

[jready]

It’s not a NEIPA but not a west coaster either. Kind of in between. The brewery is outside Houston so I guess it makes sense that it is somewhere in between. I had it before I ever had a NEIPA and still love it. I live in Nashville and there is a brewery here (Bearded Iris) that makes an excellent Mosaic NEIPA (Homestyle). It’s so good that I’ve quit trying to make an all mosaic ipa and just buy theirs.

 

[couchsending]

Recently bought a kegerator that doubles as a fermentation chamber and fermentor is a Spike Flex+. The gravity has been stable for three days and has been in primary for two and a half weeks so I am going to start the soft crash process soon. Will follow that with dry hop, cold crash, kegging and diacetyl rest.

I was seeing the start of "suck back" in the blow off tubing so i removed, purged with CO2 and now have about 2 PSI running into the fermentor.

Hopefully I get more flavor during the dry hop (or perceived flavor via aroma) because I'm not picking up those bright/juicy NEIPA flavors that I am striving for. I know of two potential issues to correct next time, but I doubt they would cause the beer to lack those qualities. One, I whirlpool with a large spoon so possibly a bit of hot-side oxidation and two, I pitched at 79° (got it down to ~73° in two hours after pitching but not ideal. Will cool to pitching temperature in fermentation chamber next time. Maybe the beer will get there with dry hop and conditioning, but still a bit surprised I can't pick up on those qualities yet.

As always, thank you for any input you can provide.

You’re not getting significant hotside aeration when whirlpooling with a large spoon and it wouldn’t cause a loss of hop character. Pitching that warm isn’t ideal but not horrible if it was cooled faster. If yeast went directly from fridge to 80 maybe not that great but still not the end of the world. Ideally you want to pitch lower than fermentation temp. Controlling the growth can help with diacetyl formation and subsequent cleanup.
Dry hopping is where you will get almost all the hop character so don’t worry. Can’t tell you the number of beers with even sizable whirlpool additions that just taste like a normal “ale” before adding dry hops.

 

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Yeah I have a few things to dial in with my setup for the next one. Yeast was Imperial Juice A38 and was taken out of fridge hours before pitching. So I would think it was in the 60° range but still not ideal.

Excellent to hear on the flavor. Hops have not come through on the first batches but I also didn't have fermentation chamber for temperature control so fingers crossed that the soft/cold crash helps retain those aromas and flavors.