Advice on sparge water temp

[gafortin]

Hello all,

I am still fairly new to posting here, due to multiple deployments so bare with me on this.

My question (which i researched and did not find the answer) is all the reading I have done on the subject of MASH and fly or batch sparging, the chemistry is the same everywhere I read and that is never exceed 172 on your sparge water, yet why is it when i read most of the posts on recipes i see temps as high as 183?

Here is how i underdstand it and hopefully someone with more knowledge can provide some insight to me about this; diastatic enzymes start acting on the starches, breaking them up into sugars (hence the term saccharification). One group, the amylases, are enzymes that work on the more complex starches and sugars. The two main amylases are Alpha and Beta. Alpha works by breaking up long, branched starch chains at the branch points, leaving behind a variety of straight chain starches and dextrin-type sugars. The reduction of these large branched chains reduces the viscosity and "liquifies" the mash. Beta amylase works by separating these straight chains into fermentable maltose sugar units. Alpha peaks at temps closer to 158 whereas Beta peaks at temps closer to 140 (PH of course being correct 5.2-5.4) This i get, here is where I get the look that your dog gives you when you say "want some steak?". I read folks sparging at 180-183 or more, now I understand the relationship of raising the overall grains to 170 by adding water hoter than 170, but 10 to 15 degrees or higher seems to lead to the top part of the grain bed to be exposed to the tannin stripping temps, before the stir. Would it not be better to bring in the sparge at lets say 172 and then decot (or reciculate depending on your system) the rest of the way to reach target of 170-172, for fear of rinsing the oils from the husk? Now I also understand that PH above approx 6.4 probably has more to do with stripping tannins than temp, but both will do the same thing, right?

So after all that my bottom line is what is the right sparge temp?

thanks


Gary Fortin
Biddeford Maine

 

[hercher]

You are right, 180 can cause some tannins to leach into your beer. I sparged at 180 for years, however, without a noticeable problem. I recently dropped my sparge temp to 172 and also had no flavor difference. I would get your sparge water to somewhere between 170-175, depending on the temperature of your mash.

 

[Yooper]

It's more pH related than temperature related. Think about it- doing a decoction is boiling the grain- which gets well over 180 degrees! But because the pH of the decoction is low, you don't pull tannins out of the grain.

I sparge with hot enough water to get my grainbed to 168, which may mean a 204 degree addition of water. But my pH is never over 6.

 

[sudsmcgee]

Like Yooper said, tannins are mostly released when the pH rises too high. If your pH doesn't rise above 6 during the sparge you should not release tannins.

 

[HomebrewMTB]

There seems to be a lot of confusion and misinformation on this issue. The thing to remember about sparge water is that the temp of the water into the mash is in no way restricted on temperature. Mash out temps are usually near or at boiling. The thing is you just don't want the temp of your grains to reach over 170 (debatable but assuming this is true).

So for example, you want to raise your temp from 154 at mash to 168 for sparge. You need to add the water at 183 (or whatever) to get the entire system up to 168 degrees after stirring. If you only use 170 degree water, you'll only raise the temp of the grains up a couple of degrees.

There are a lot of variable such as sparge volume, grain weight, cooler mass, etc. All this is made much easier with software like Brewsmith which calculates all the water volumes and temps for you based on your equipment.

 

[gafortin]

Ok all thanks for the replies, I see that there is some debate on this just on the 4 replies I received so far, hope this doesn't spark up something. I thought I was thinking it through correctly I just wanted to hear something from the Pros. As I understand it and all that I have read on the detail of chemistry is that indeed raising the temp of the sparge above lets say 172 (may) release tannins, however not the amount discernable to human taste, PH plays more of a role in stripping tannins (coupled with overheated sparge could make it discernable) so as long as my PH is approx mid six (6) range than I should be ok.

If I am i way off let me know, and thanks again.

Gary

 

[gafortin]

It's more pH related than temperature related. Think about it- doing a decoction is boiling the grain- which gets well over 180 degrees! But because the pH of the decoction is low, you don't pull tannins out of the grain.

I sparge with hot enough water to get my grainbed to 168, which may mean a 204 degree addition of water. But my pH is never over 6.

I just re-read this post and realized it possed another questioni (I am not challenging i am just seeking clarification) I was under the understanding that a decot MASH that you did not want the grains in there when you raise the temp only the sweet wort, basically not to boil the grains in the decot (under certian recipes was the only exception). I am wrong on this?

thanks again

Gary

 

[asterix404]

Yea, I think there is a units/timing issue here. I add water which is 185deg F for my batch sparge to get 152 up to 168. I don't want to exceed the 172 mark when the grain is sitting.

You know, gafortin, I did the exact same thing. The pull is literally pulling out the grain from the mash a and putting all of the grain into another pot. You then fill it up with enough of the enzyme rich liquid so that you can stir it. You then run it through a separate mash on the side (typically hold at 150 for 10min, 150-160 over about 15min, hold at 160 for 10min, bring to boil and add back). The literature is fairly terrible for a first time decoction, so don't be embarrassed.

 

[gafortin]

Yea, I think there is a units/timing issue here. I add water which is 185deg F for my batch sparge to get 152 up to 168. I don't want to exceed the 172 mark when the grain is sitting.

You know, gafortin, I did the exact same thing. The pull is literally pulling out the grain from the mash a and putting all of the grain into another pot. You then fill it up with enough of the enzyme rich liquid so that you can stir it. You then run it through a separate mash on the side (typically hold at 150 for 10min, 150-160 over about 15min, hold at 160 for 10min, bring to boil and add back). The literature is fairly terrible for a first time decoction, so don't be embarrassed.

Excellent, thank you for the info. No no not embarrassed, I can admit when i am a NOOB (which I am LOL) on something, but I always do thorough research to make sure I can try to eliminate as many variables as I can only then I can truly understand the relationship of the entire all grain brew,as much as that is possible I suppose, besides I am going to do my first all grain on my new HERIMS once i finish putting it together. wish me luck

 

[wildwest450]

If your serious about all grain, you should get a water report and a ph meter.

_

 

[gafortin]

If your serious about all grain, you should get a water report and a ph meter.

_

Yes thanks, I did order a PH meter and I found a link for a water testing company, as soon as i get home i will send in the sample.

I can't remember the thread but it was a lengthy one that the member could not get rid of his chill haze oddly enough he is from Maine, as am I. Anyway I digress my point is within the thread there was a lengthy discussion about water quality, and a great link to cheap water testing. So yes that is my plan.

I am really impressed with the level of knowledge in this forum.

Thanks again
Gary