Accounting for lauter dead space

[goaliemanpat]

So I am ordering the ingredients to do my first brew moving to All-Grain. I picked up Beersmith and have been poking around in it. I plan on doing this recipe Fizzy Yellow. Now when I am inputing the recipe into Beersmith and setting the equipment profile I come to lauter dead space. I understand this is the amount left at the bottom that cant get pulled out. I tested my setup (Igloo with toilet line) and it left almost 1/2 gallon in the bottom. This seems like a lot. Will it be less when its full of grain? My main question is it easier just to scale the recipe to 5.5 or 5.25 gallons so I have some extra wort to account for that lost at the bottom and just pull out enough to cover that 5 gallons? If not would tilting the tun with a piece of wood before the vorlauf hurt anything?

Thanks for any input. Looking forward to this brew.

 

[J187]

That's what that input in beersmith does... it will allow you to adjust the recipe volumes to account for the dead space. You'll see when you make changes to the deadspace amount, the volumes elsewhere will change. I can't speak to how your screen system will change with grain - I use a false bottom system and I leave about .22g volume. I'm shocked that the braid leaves that kind of liquid behind... something seems wrong. I'd think it would ultimately prove to be only onces.

 

[goaliemanpat]

Ok. I didnt know that changed the volumes for the recipe as well. I thought it was a bit much to when I did it. Am I right to assume maybe it was because it was just water and having the grain in there taking up space would make it quite a bit different? I will try it again when I get home to make sure. I just want to make sure at the end of the day I dont have a short filled keg of the good stuff lol.

 

[Flipadelphia]

Beersmith adjusts your water volumes to account for this.

 

[TobyG]

[...] This seems like a lot. Will it be less when its full of grain?

I highly doubt it since it will not drain anymore with grain than without it.

My main question is it easier just to scale the recipe to 5.5 or 5.25 gallons so I have some extra wort to account for that lost at the bottom and just pull out enough to cover that 5 gallons?

As others have told you, to compensate for that volume loss is the reason that BeerSmith asks for it.

If not would tilting the tun with a piece of wood before the vorlauf hurt anything?

I doubt if it would hurt anything. Give it a try without grain and see if it decreases your dead space. The dead space issue is why I love my Coleman Xtreme. The channel at the drain tube leaves it with less than a cup of dead space.

 

[LLBrewer]

I don't understand why people worry about deadspace. Can't you just continue to sparge until you get the preboil amount you need?

 

[TobyG]

Couple reasons. 1) That's wort you're losing. If you batch sparge, it will get mixed back in and you won't lose quite as much, but you're still losing a real amount of wort. 2) You don't want to keep sparging below a certain gravity point (opinions vary on what that is), otherwise you'll risk extracting tannins from the grain husks.

 

[brewbama]

I had a cooler with half a gal dead space as well. I've since moved to a new cooler for several reasons and have half a cup now. When I calculated mash out and batch sparge water I accounted for the half gal to ensure I lautered my intended boil volume.


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[LLBrewer]

Couple reasons. 1) That's wort you're losing. If you batch sparge, it will get mixed back in and you won't lose quite as much, but you're still losing a real amount of wort. 2) You don't want to keep sparging below a certain gravity point (opinions vary on what that is), otherwise you'll risk extracting tannins from the grain husks.

If you batch sparge, you aren't losing wort per se. You should (roughly) know based on your system what gravity you will hit given lbs of grain and preboil volume. No need to worry about a dead space parameter unless I'm missing something. Seems to me if you took the same system and eliminated all dead space you would still get the same gravity for a given preboil volume, only difference is you would need slightly less sparge water to get there. Is this wrong?

 

[TobyG]

If you batch sparge, you aren't losing wort per se.

You'll lose some to the dead space unless you oversparge. It's just somewhat reduced since you mix the first runnings in the dead space with the batch(es). You basically dilute the wort in the dead space. However, unless you keep adding water and sparging you'll eventually leave some amount of wort behind.

You should (roughly) know based on your system what gravity you will hit given lbs of grain and preboil volume. No need to worry about a dead space parameter unless I'm missing something. Seems to me if you took the same system and eliminated all dead space you would still get the same gravity for a given preboil volume, only difference is you would need slightly less sparge water to get there. Is this wrong?

Slightly. The purpose of entering the dead space information is to help you reach a given volume and pre-boil gravity without oversparging. Basically, it calculates the loss and compensates for it in the recipe. It will slightly reduce your pre-boil gravity to compensate for loss and top up water to hit your system's numbers.

 

[hophop]

If your using a braid, simply tip the tun to get the fluid to move to side with the drain. It dramatically lowers your dead space.


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[LLBrewer]

You'll lose some to the dead space unless you oversparge. It's just somewhat reduced since you mix the first runnings in the dead space with the batch(es). You basically dilute the wort in the dead space. However, unless you keep adding water and sparging you'll eventually leave some amount of wort behind.

Slightly. The purpose of entering the dead space information is to help you reach a given volume and pre-boil gravity without oversparging. Basically, it calculates the loss and compensates for it in the recipe. It will slightly reduce your pre-boil gravity to compensate for loss and top up water to hit your system's numbers.

Hmmm, not sure about any of that. Every sparge addition is diluting the wort. That's just common sense. Whether you can reach your target OG without over-saprging is another question entirely. At our home-brew scale there's no excuse for ever approaching that threshold. Spend an extra $1.00 on grain and then just sparge to reach your pre-boil volume.

 

[acidrain]

Hmmm, not sure about any of that. Every sparge addition is diluting the wort. That's just common sense. Whether you can reach your target OG without over-saprging is another question entirely. At our home-brew scale there's no excuse for ever approaching that threshold. Spend an extra $1.00 on grain and then just sparge to reach your pre-boil volume.

Right. Just like TobyG said... thats what beersmith will calculate.

 

[TobyG]

Right. Just like TobyG said... thats what beersmith will calculate.

Exactly, it will calculate your sparge water and assume the dead space at the last sparge as loss and then tell you to add water to reach the recipe's target pre-boil volume and pre-boil gravity. That's why it's important to enter your system's numbers (dead space, efficiency, boil off, etc.) to really leverage BeerSmith.

 

[J187]

Hmmm, not sure about any of that. Every sparge addition is diluting the wort. That's just common sense. Whether you can reach your target OG without over-saprging is another question entirely. At our home-brew scale there's no excuse for ever approaching that threshold. Spend an extra $1.00 on grain and then just sparge to reach your pre-boil volume.

Every time you sparge you degrade the wort quality. You say why worry about dead space, I say why not worry about it? Once you know it, you know it. That way you can account for it in the calculations and know you'll hit you volumes. Knowing my dead space means I can batch sparge once and have a nice high quality wort, with no issues. What else would you do, a second sparge of only 1/4 gallon or whatever the dead space equals out to? That's not even going to work. And how would you know you'd need subsequent sparges unless you calculated the first sparge's volume, not account for dead space, and then measure the volume in the kettle to discover you are like .22 gallons short. Then the plan is sparge a second time with .22 gallons, recirc, drain, etc? Nah...

 

[Clonefan94]

I highly doubt it since it will not drain anymore with grain than without it.

.

Actually, there will be less deadspace to hold water. The grain itself will occupy some of that space, therefore less water left behind. That is if his test was originally with just water and nothing to take the place of the grain.

 

[LLBrewer]

Every time you sparge you degrade the wort quality. You say why worry about dead space, I say why not worry about it? Once you know it, you know it. That way you can account for it in the calculations and know you'll hit you volumes. Knowing my dead space means I can batch sparge once and have a nice high quality wort, with no issues. What else would you do, a second sparge of only 1/4 gallon or whatever the dead space equals out to? That's not even going to work. And how would you know you'd need subsequent sparges unless you calculated the first sparge's volume, not account for dead space, and then measure the volume in the kettle to discover you are like .22 gallons short. Then the plan is sparge a second time with .22 gallons, recirc, drain, etc? Nah...

That's not what I'm saying at all. I have volume marks on my mash paddle so I just make sure I have at least enough sparge water and the drain until I hit my pre boil volume. Done. Why would I even want to be exact in calculating a sparge volume? The only caveat is making sure to not dilute the mash too much. I highly doubt this is an actual issue for the average home brewer.

 

[Smellyglove]

In my system the deadspace, herms coil etc is about 4 litres. I set the deadspace to 0 since I'm able to recover all the wort in the deadspace. Then I calculate my desired water to grist ratio, and add 4 litres (you want grist to water ratio to mirror the actual water in contact with the grist at all times), then divide that amount with kg's of grist I have, and fill that number into the grain/water ratio under mash options. It leaves me about 4 litres of wort/water in the MLT when I reach my boil volume, but efficiency wise, if you dial it in it's spot on and I'm able to hit my volumes and OG every time.

 

[TobyG]

Actually, there will be less deadspace to hold water. The grain itself will occupy some of that space, therefore less water left behind. That is if his test was originally with just water and nothing to take the place of the grain.

To an extent, you're right, but that's taken into account in the calculations. Basically, depending on how much dead space you have, it will make a difference as to whether you should have BeerSmith adjust grist/water ratio to compensate. From my recollection of the video, a half gallon or less, you shouldn't need to check the box, but significantly more than that, it would be a good idea.

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] Why would I even want to be exact in calculating a sparge volume? The only caveat is making sure to not dilute the mash too much. I highly doubt this is an actual issue for the average home brewer.

You DO want to be pretty exact with the amount of sparge water and not add more than you need. All the excess contains gravity points that stay behind in the mash tun which you can't recover once you hit your volume. Unless you want to boil them down separately.

But agreed, on homebrew scale this is not a big issue as long as you get your points (and volume) then shut it off. You can always add water if you end up too high or below your target volume. One can easily see how we're entering waste territory there...

And yes, I've done 3rd sparges with an extra half or one gallon to get some of that 1.014 wort. Keeping that pH in check though!

 

[Flboy]

I know I may be risking public ridicule (again). But why leave any wort behind? I dump my spent grain in a strainer, press, then pour that wort thru a fine mesh into my batch.

 

[IslandLizard]

You can always lay a few tiles on the bottom of the mash tun to reduce the dead space. But if you do that, the thermal mass of your mash tun goes up a bit, so enter a higher number there.

 

[LLBrewer]

But agreed, on homebrew scale this is not a big issue as long as you get your points (and volume) then shut it off. You can always add water if you end up too high or below your target volume. One can easily see how we're entering waste territory there...

At $2.00/lb and 5.5 gallon batches, I'm not sweating the waste. It's real easy to know what your gravity will be based on lbs of grain and preboil volume. No other measurements or calculations are required. Now if you must squeeze every last gram of sugars out of the grain then you most likely aren't home brewing or you are quite anal retentive.

 

[LLBrewer]

... / nvn

 

[IslandLizard]

At $2.00/lb and 5.5 gallon batches, I'm not sweating the waste. It's real easy to know what your gravity will be based on lbs of grain and preboil volume. No other measurements or calculations are required. Now if you must squeeze every last gram of sugars out of the grain then you most likely aren't home brewing or you are quite anal retentive.

Absolutely! Even at $2.00 for the extra pound of grain (yes, specialty grain should be included!) it's a relatively small price to pay to hit your pre-boil gravity and volume. Now some of us don't mind to squeeze a little harder... which gives us the right to brag about our efficiency.

 

[peterj]

Actually, there will be less deadspace to hold water. The grain itself will occupy some of that space, therefore less water left behind. That is if his test was originally with just water and nothing to take the place of the grain.

To an extent, you're right, but that's taken into account in the calculations. Basically, depending on how much dead space you have, it will make a difference as to whether you should have BeerSmith adjust grist/water ratio to compensate. From my recollection of the video, a half gallon or less, you shouldn't need to check the box, but significantly more than that, it would be a good idea.

No, he was talking about the OP's original experiment where he put only water in the mash tun to see how much dead space there was. He said there was 0.5 gallon worth of water left. But when there's grain in there, the grain will be taking up a significant portion of that 0.5 gallon worth of space. So yes, you will have much less dead space with grain and water.

I have an igloo cooler and SS braid as well and I usually have about 0.5 quart or so of wort loss due to dead space. Tipping the mash tun is a good idea to get as much out as you can, but whatever you do just make sure you do it consistently so you can predict how much water, grain, etc. you need every time.

I know I may be risking public ridicule (again). But why leave any wort behind? I dump my spent grain in a strainer, press, then pour that wort thru a fine mesh into my batch.

That sounds like a lot of work and heavy lifting!

 

[Flboy]

At $2.00/lb and 5.5 gallon batches, I'm not sweating the waste. It's real easy to know what your gravity will be based on lbs of grain and preboil volume. No other measurements or calculations are required. Now if you must squeeze every last gram of sugars out of the grain then you most likely aren't home brewing or you are quite anal retentive.

That's me, even have had surgery to try to fix!

 

[Flboy]

In reality, I have backed off a bit..quite a bit. Originally was going after every drop of sweetness in my grain. Til I decided to measure the gravity of my final rinse. Just barely above .01! And as you said, 1 extra lb grain, in my case, .80 cents!

 

[IslandLizard]

We're agonizing over a little mash tun deadspace issue, where we're dealing with some low gravity wort that stays behind. The OP hasn't asked about the real efficiency killer, which is yet to come...

<drum roll> trub and equipment losses! </drum roll>

 

[TobyG]

No, he was talking about the OP's original experiment where he put only water in the mash tun to see how much dead space there was. He said there was 0.5 gallon worth of water left. But when there's grain in there, the grain will be taking up a significant portion of that 0.5 gallon worth of space. So yes, you will have much less dead space with grain and water.

I agree, but from what I recall, his experiment was the way that Brad Smith recommended calculating the dead space.

 

[TobyG]

I know I may be risking public ridicule (again). But why leave any wort behind? I dump my spent grain in a strainer, press, then pour that wort thru a fine mesh into my batch.

No ridicule, but tannin extraction below a given gravity is a possibility. What that gravity is could be up for debate, I suppose, but if you're leaving behind low gravity wort that's going to hurt your finished beer, that's a significant reason to leave wort behind.

 

[fiveohmike]

In my system the deadspace, herms coil etc is about 4 litres. I set the deadspace to 0 since I'm able to recover all the wort in the deadspace. Then I calculate my desired water to grist ratio, and add 4 litres (you want grist to water ratio to mirror the actual water in contact with the grist at all times), then divide that amount with kg's of grist I have, and fill that number into the grain/water ratio under mash options. It leaves me about 4 litres of wort/water in the MLT when I reach my boil volume, but efficiency wise, if you dial it in it's spot on and I'm able to hit my volumes and OG every time.

This is similar to what I did with my first AG batch. The deadspace option in Beersmith doesn't take into account that I may tip the Tun to get most of it out.

So to get the Water/Grist ratio of 1.4 I wanted, I just added the deadspace to the calculated mash water needed (without deadspace checked) so I got the thickeness I wanted.

i then sparged with what was leftover (one batch sparge). Once i let it site, I drained and then tipped the Tun to get all but 2 cups out. I was aiming for 1.076 and hit 1.071. I am sure i will hit closer to my number, but this was my first AG batch.

 

[acidrain]

Beersmith doesn't take into account that I may tip the Tun to get most of it out.

Huh? Dead space is dead space. It takes into account if you tell it to.