A mother’s worry about alcohol in baked goods?

[Littlebee]

Hello all. My apologies in advance as I come to you with no knowledge about anything brew related. I found this forum online and thought you bunch would be a good resource to ask my question (which I am sure some of you may think is crazy and will laugh at me!).
So, here we go (any scientists on the forum btw?):

I started making yeast pizza dough and pancakes recently. I have a two year old who loves them. Who wouldn’t? They’re home made!

Dr. google recently scared the pants off of me. Insisting that some study out there confirmed certain yeast baked goods can contain upwards of 1% alcohol. I freaked. I’ve been feeding this to my child? Here’s the study.

Estimates of Ethanol Exposure in Children from Food not Labeled as Alcohol-Containing

Ethanol is widely used in herbal medicines, e.g., for children. Furthermore, alcohol is a constituent of fermented food such as bread or yogurt and “non-fermented” food such as fruit juices. At the same time, exposure to very low levels ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I basically want to know how much ethanol can form in a pizza dough that’s been left on the counter for a few hours before putting it into the oven? I also tend to bake my pizza at a fairly low temp (350 F). I know baking doesn’t get rid of all the alcohol content of any food shoved in there. But, would there be any in a pizza dough that isn’t baked crispy? Not raw dough of course, but on the lighter side.

As for the pancakes, I add the instant yeast granules you buy in little jars, flour, and water, and a mashed banana. This sits in the fridge overnight and in the morning I add sugar and water again, and then shallow pan fry the pancakes on some oil.

Does yeast stop producing alcohol in the fridge? And how long does it take for a dough with yeast to actually start producing alcohol/ethanol?

omg am I poisoning my to

 

[Pappers_]

When yeast processes sugars, it releases CO2 and ethanol. So, this article isn't crazy.

Am I even a little concerned about it for children? No. Bread has been a staple food for millenia. Plus wild yeast or bacteria is on everything, including in our digestive tract. Its needed for our good health. There are so many truly dangerous things to worry about food-wise, you don't need to spend any time worrying about ethanol (or CO2 for that matter) in any bread products, including pizza dough and pancakes.

 

[khannon]

Also keeping in mind that alcohol starts evaporation(boiling) at ~173F give or take.. That's not to say it is all driven off, but food-safe for most things is ~165F internal which means the outside is much hotter..

I don't think I would worry about it that much. Keep in mind that I also installed all of the car-seats for my kids though, and they so far have only made it to 26,23, and 21 respectively, Your mileage may vary.

 

[TennBrewer]

Alcohol has a boiling point of around 170 degrees so I would think that it would not take long to "boil off" any alcohol in bread.

 

[Apple_Jacker]

I ate pizza and breads my whole childhood and look where it got me: on an online beer-making forum

 

[bracconiere]

well in a normal beer, there are 13.9g's of ethanol.1 beer weighs about 340-355g's. and it's ~5% alcohol. by volume, to convert ABV to ABW, multiply by .8 or .88 i forget....

so you'd have to weigh your pancake batter on a gram scale before pouring, figure one percent of that weight COULD be ethanol.

i'd say serve the tot granola for breakfast, pancakes for a afternoon nap, and pizza for dinner....


just looked it up they say a avg pancake is 1.25oz's...so 126g'sx0.01=1.26g's ethanol....


but if you really want to be scared, the human body naturally produces ~3g's a day....

Ethanol metabolism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DuncB]

Can't believe that any ethanol would be left after cooking the dough.
Even if you ate the raw dough the ethanol is gassing off with the CO2 as it rises and activity would be stopped by stomach acid in humans.
There are far more risky things in the home than dough. Scalds and burns, electrocution and ingesting toxic substances, batteries etc.
As Marie Antoinette may have said " let them eat cake " .

 

[bracconiere]

" let them eat cake " .

but that's a quick bread?

 

[DuncB]

Most cakes use a raising agent such as Bicarb Soda and an acid ( tartaric ) with the plain flour. OR use self raising flour.
No yeast in most cakes so a good option. Though higher GI.

 

[bracconiere]

soda? that's not some abbreviation of sodium is it? i thought sodium was the devil?

you'd have to choose between what you consider the lesser of two evils, a gram of ethanol, or a gram of sodium....

 

[Barbarossa]

I would be more worried about the humongous amount of bread you will have to feed your kid in one sitting for the alcohol to have any noticable effect. That would make you an even worse mom. RDWHAHB.

If you really want to worry, worry about sugar. That's a real problem. Sugar is poison.

 

[hout17]

Humans have been eating bread for thousands of years. One would venture to guess it's not a big deal.

 

[DuncB]

The Navy ration in 17th century included 1lb of biscuit and 1 gallon of beer daily .

Must have been drinking the beer to dilute the alcohol in the biscuit I suppose.

 

[day_trippr]

^hahaha!^ Sly

 

[bracconiere]

i like the fact @Littlebee wanted to know how we all feel about, at worst, is 1/10th of a beer....


(oh should say yeast are a great source of the vitamins folate & thiamin...and also way back when read it helps break down phytates, something else people worry about with flour)

 

[Littlebee]

Thanks all. I had a feeling some of you would probably laugh but it was something on my mind. I try to feed my little one as healthy as possible, and I assumed yeast dough is quite healthy otherwise. I’m also assuming a 2 year old wouldn’t absorb any of the alcohol, if there was any left in the pancakes or bread? We don’t absorb all we drink even in alcoholic beverages. Is a toddler any different? But what do I know.

 

[Pappers_]

Thanks all. I had a feeling some of you would probably laugh but it was something on my mind. I try to feed my little one as healthy as possible, and I assumed yeast dough is quite healthy otherwise. I’m also assuming a 2 year old wouldn’t absorb any of the alcohol, if there was any left in the pancakes or bread? We don’t absorb all we drink even in alcoholic beverages. Is a toddler any different? But what do I know.

I think you're right to focus on other, much more problemmatic, food-related health issues. Thanks for stopping by and best wishes to you and your family.

 

[madscientist451]

My doctor says that processed foods like refined flour and sugar are "poison" to the human body and should be avoided. Since I choose to consume a known poison (alcohol) I have also chosen to not consume processed foods that are also known to be harmful. If you are worried about what your kid is eating, that's good, but you should be paying attention to possible issues with processed food in addition to the possibility of residual alcohol from bread yeast.

 

[DuncB]

Well it's caused quite a debate, but I don't think that a childs' metabolism is different from an adults for alcohol adsorption.
Alcohol crosses the stomach wall well. I'm pretty sure the alcohol in a baked bread product would be very very low. But if you dip that bread in beer, wine or spirits and eat it the alcohol would be absorbed just the same as drinking that volume.
I think the alcohol would all get absorbed, BUT the gastric blood flow goes thru the liver and gets a first pass metabolism done there and so some is converted in the P450 cycle if I remember correctly.
The rest that doesn't get metabolised enters the bloodstream and hence can get to brain and other places. Next time it passes thru the liver it will get metabolised. So if input exceeds the metabolic breakdown you will become intoxicated. The liver can get better at metabolising alcohol with training It makes more liver and more enzymes.
Some people lack some of the enzymes in the P450 cycle ( particularly orientals ) they go red very quickly after consuming alcohol and become intoxicated fast.
The stomach and liver are therefore quite protective.
Similarly you only need a small quantity of alcohol injected directly into a vein to have a rapidly intoxicating effect ( some fools do this!!).
Paradoxically Methanol poisoning and Ethylene glycol ( antifreeze ) poisoning are treated with IV alcohol ( Ethanol ) , usually a 10% solution, because the ethanol competes with the Meth or Eth Gly in the pathways and prevents the production of bad substances such as Formaldehyde from Methanol and Oxalic and glycolic acid from ethylene glycol. They are all broken down by that same P450 cycle/pathway.
So for Methanol its 700mg / kg in first hour related to the blood methanol measurement and give dialysis as well if severe.
This does get slightly varied depending on the naivety to alcohol of the patient ( more if they drink a lot ) .
So about 49g of alcohol in the first hour and then dialled back to 100mg / kg as maintenance so about 7g ( or 700ml of the 10 % solution) . It's given IV because a 5% beer would need just under 10 litres to be taken orally and even a 40% spirit would need 1.25 litres approx ( so you'd need a lot of mixer ).
This dose of IV alcohol usually renders the patient unconscious!! so they need careful monitoring.

I would use the local protocol if I had to treat this though.

Interestingly Oxalic acid is in certain foods particularly high in Parsley, cassava and spinach and some cases of poisoning from overconsumption have occurred. Rhubarb leaves are particularly rich.

Perhaps we shouldn't go further with the vegetables and please don't ask how many iceberg lettuce a person can eat before getting poisoned.
But about 7 lb of spinach might be lethal to a 140 lb person.

 

[Dland]

My guess is OP is havin' a laugh on how many of us responded seriously to this post.

On the other hand, if serious; nah, .....too articulate a post w paragraphs and everything.

Let's all have another home brew, esp the OP. {;

 

[Littlebee]

Lol yeah. Thanks all

 

[Steven Barrett]

Is the grant money that funded that article refundable?

I would argue that making homemade pizza crusts and bread will significantly improve your and your child’s health versus buying store-bought. You know exactly what’s going in -flour, water, yeast and salt (maybe olive oil). I wouldn’t spend another second worrying about feeding your toddler food that you make at home with your own hands.

 

[DuncB]

Just digging up some old memories!

 

[Elric]

I love the idea of someone coming and asking a bunch of obvious alcoholics whether they think a tiny bit of alcohol will be harmful to a baby

 

[DuncB]

Nobody told me there was alcohol in beer, I thought it was liquid bread, grains, water and yeast surely with some flavouring herbs.

 

[Littlebee]

Oh come on guys. Give me some credit. I thought I was dealing with biochemists here!

 

[Elric]

Oh come on guys. Give me some credit. I thought I was dealing with biochemists here!

Well I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once, does that make me a biochemist? But seriosuly, don't worry about it, if it were an issue don't you think the governments of the world would be all over banning or taxing pizza doughs and pancakes?

 

[Jayjay1976]

I'm drunk on pancake batter and seeing trails. This is so much batter than beer omg I feel like a superhero wait where did my keys go I had them right here a second ago omg this drum solo is lit wait that's my heart whoops where'd my lap go, every damn time I stand up holy crap tv is such a miracle I can smell the pizza pizza 30 minutes boom freedom it's showtime everybody! Urp, spoon spoooon spoon thatsa weird word spOOOON. Feels good on my teeth when I say it SPOOooon. Teeth, omg hard candies that never run out spOOOnn. Where'd my battergo.

 

[Elric]

I'm drunk on pancake batter and seeing trails. This is so much batter than beer omg I feel like a superhero wait where did my keys go I had them right here a second ago omg this drum solo is lit wait that's my heart whoops where'd my lap go, every damn time I stand up holy crap tv is such a miracle I can smell the pizza pizza 30 minutes boom freedom it's showtime everybody! Urp, spoon spoooon spoon thatsa weird word spOOOON. Feels good on my teeth when I say it SPOOooon. Teeth, omg hard candies that never run out spOOOnn. Where'd my battergo.

I'm concerned that this all makes sense to me. Think I need to go get another pint of pizza dough. WOW man, my feet are talking to me!

 

[DuncB]

More clinical than a biochemist.
Now if someone could tell me why my loaf of bread doesn't rise to fill the whole of the bread maker and if it does reach the top it then collapses a bit that would be useful.

 

[Jayjay1976]

More clinical than a biochemist.
Now if someone could tell me why my loaf of bread doesn't rise to fill the whole of the bread maker and if it does reach the top it then collapses a bit that would be useful.

Yeah, you're riding the pastry pony too, whoooo!

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Teeth, omg hard candies that never run out spOOOnn. Where'd my battergo.

 

[TheBluePhantom]

Alcohol is a lot of places, handy for keeping oils flowing. Like medicines and foodstuffs. Take extract flavorings, I have a regular bottle of vanilla extract that says it is 35% alcohol, that is 70 proof. I probably should not have posted that though, now the booze hounds are raiding the spice cupboard...

Seriously, to get one ounce of alcohol at 1%, you would have to eat 100 ounces. That is 6 1/4 pounds. If you are feeding a toddler that much, he can probably handle the alcohol... Or you can make it thin crust and put more veggies on top.

 

[SoulToast]

 

[Wolffie]

Oh come on guys. Give me some credit. I thought I was dealing with biochemists here!

new name for biochemists ( Beer Lovers )

 

[Kent88]

Does Alcohol Evaporate from Cooking Wine?

 

[Birrofilo]

More clinical than a biochemist.
Now if someone could tell me why my loaf of bread doesn't rise to fill the whole of the bread maker and if it does reach the top it then collapses a bit that would be useful.

If it collapses after reaching a higher volume there probably is too long a fermentation, or too little gluten mash.

I make bread with a bread machine, and I had to spend some time before reaching a good product. I use 100% wholemeal flour and no salt (and no sugar).

I got finally a simple and working recipe:
1 kg wholemeal flour;
3 or 4 level spoons of gluten;
same quantity of DME;
I add a spoon or so of extra virgin olive oil;

I use the "fast cycle" of the machine. It works very well.

 

[Jayjay1976]

...(and no sugar)...

..."3 or 4 level spoons of"..."same quantity of DME"

uh...?

 

[Birrofilo]

My doctor says that processed foods like refined flour and sugar are "poison" to the human body and should be avoided. Since I choose to consume a known poison (alcohol) I have also chosen to not consume processed foods that are also known to be harmful. If you are worried about what your kid is eating, that's good, but you should be paying attention to possible issues with processed food in addition to the possibility of residual alcohol from bread yeast.

Alcohol is a known food. Your adult body processes it without any trouble nor harm and it gives you calories.

This idea that alcohol is poison is a wrong idea that only happens to exist in certain countries (actually probably one) and it just doesn't exist in science and doesn't exist in most places of the world. Small children must consume much less of it but it's food for them as well. After you have the right enzymes, you are fine. That doesn't mean that alcohol is a "poison" for a 16 years old guy or for an adult.

Alcohol is food, wine is food, beer is food. Yes very small children should consume it in moderation. They consume it with their bread, their fresh fruit. Kefir contains alcohol as well. Sandwich bread is often treated with alcohol.

It's the dose that makes the poison. Beyond a certain dose, water is a poison too, or cheese or mayonnaise.

If people go on spreading ideas such as alcohol being a poison, then we end up with mothers who worry because they read on Google that bread contains alcohol. Well, fresh fruit contains probably more and it is eaten raw, by very small babies as well.

As a side note, there is a theory (still waiting for a scientifical verification, but based on a clear historical correlation) that the explosion of autism is due to the explosion in the use of saniters: modern mothers obsess with microbs and feed their children sanitizers through the baby bottles, the clothes which are "disinfected", the floor which is "disinfected" etc.

That's another case of modern obsession that should cease now.

We should begin teaching mothers to obsess less with alcohol and to obsess less with bacteria. Actually we should teach them to obsess less period

I knew a German family who forbid their child (13 years old or so) to drink Coke because it contains coffeine.

Cholesterol is good for your, alcohol is good for you, bacteria are mostly good for you. Relax. Have a homebrew.

 

[Birrofilo]

If you really want to worry, worry about sugar. That's a real problem. Sugar is poison.

Totally agree. Eliminating added sugar and added salt from our diet would boost the general health in society much more than all the obsessions that are spread around.

That doesn't mean that sugar in itself is bad (sugar which is contained in food, is food) or that salt is bad (salt which is contained in food, is food). But the habit of adding sugar and salt to everything (often both sugar and salt!, as in certain breads or certain sauces) is causing unnecessary stress to your body.

So yes: don't feed sugar to your child. Give him fruit, fruit juices (with no sugar added), proper bread (which in my book is wholemeal bread with little additives). Unhealthy food is everywhere and the tiny alcohol content of food is absolutely not a problem.

Alcohol is also used as a preservative for bread (you can read it among the ingredients in typical bread which is used for toasts and sandwhiches) but, again, that's not the problem. The problem is the white flour which is deprived of most of the micronutrients. I would "worry" about that.