A Genuine Viewpoint Opposing LODO As Unsubstantiated

[divrack]

I've been getting carried away with reading up on lodo and preparing to take the plunge. It only just now occurred to me that I've never been that impressed by German Beers and I've been to a few breweries...
Hmm

 

[Hanglow]

You need to visit Franconia if you want to be impressed with german beers and culture If you then don't, I don't think you like beer !

I'm sure LODO a great technique for many beers and lagers in particular, but for the likes of the very best british beers which are drunk within 6 weeks of being brewed, the breweries they are made in tend to positively encourage HSA. splashing into mashtuns, spashing into underbacks and spendsafe, then there is the open copper with internal calandria, then into hopbacks and again through cooling. In fact I cant really think how they could have even more HSA unless you actively pumped o2 through the hot wort !

 

[Pkrd]

In fact I cant really think how they could have even more HSA unless you actively pumped o2 through the hot wort !

Maybe LODO is the same as HiDO but by pure bad luck us non LODO brewers are in some evil MidDO region, forever destined to make awful beer until we go one way or the other.

 

[schematix]

I've recently had 'fresh' british style ales in the UK and thought they all tasted like oxidized home brew. That's part of the flavor profile. Just like them being estery.

Didn't make them bad, but they weren't that good.

 

[hopjuice_71]

I thought I might just throw in a slightly different viewpoint into this discussion. My day job is as a hardcore biochemist and based on this expertise I have never had any doubts at all that there is absolutely something to LODO. So, I investigated it. I tried all of the beers I could get my hand on that were purportedly LODO - fresh and in cans. I didn't really care for them. Yes, I have cut beer-drinking swathes across Germany a couple of times and I wasn't blown away by any of the beers. Nevertheless, I went full-on in adopting LODO practices into my own brewing (stopping just short of a stainless chiller, but I used Brewtan B). It definitely changed the qualities of my beers to be more like the commercial LODO beers I had tried. Success! .. .. except I didn't really care that much for the beers. It seems that I just don't really like the "it" factor.. ..maybe that goes hand-in-hand with preferring hoppy beers? I continue to be obsessive about LODO on the cold-side - this has a huge impact on preserving the integrity of flavours and the longevity of the beer (particularly hoppy ones). Regarding LODO on the hot-side, there is definitely something to it but I can no longer be convinced that it should be considered as part of best brewing practice. My feeling is that it is another knob to twiddle to achieve flavours that one may or may not like, akin to liking or disliking hoppy styles or beers with/without lots of crystal malts.

 

[sixhotdogneck]

The purpose of LODO is that it keeps oxygen from staling the wort on the hot side and the beer on the cold side.

How much of a difference can be tasted in a fresh beer from each process?

An exbeeriment indicated that enough of a difference was present to be distinguished by the majority of tasters. Even though it was distinguishable by the majority - the majority still preferred the normal beer.

How much of a difference can be tasted in an aged beer from each process?

The color and taste/smell have been proven to last longer in a LODO beer. This may not fit well with the accustomed tastes of a region and the styles of beer they're used to drinking. Some styles of beer may benefit from the oxidation process.

***********************************************************************************************

That's really all there is to it folks.

Want a slightly less oxidized taste on a fresh beer -and/or- want your beer to last longer while preserving that taste/smell? Try LODO (at least on the cold side to keep that keg fresher longer).

Neither process is better than the other, at the homebrew level it's a matter of personal preference, customs, equipment and style of beer being brewed. Commercial breweries do LODO because preserving the freshness affects the bottom line.

I don't do LODO as I'm satisfied with my beers taste and it's freshness for the couple weeks it takes to drain a keg, of course I'm only satisfying my taste and have no vested interest in others tastes.

 

[schematix]

Evidence is vastly in favor of the low oxygen process making a significant difference in the product.

The issue is with ignorant people (or just plain a-holes) boasting around that in their uninformed universe that low oxygen brewing is some sort of myth, and then quote perhaps the most flawed Brulosphy article of all time as evidence of it. There are many more open minded and informed people out there running this process that are quickly finding that there is something very different happening when you meticulously exclude oxygen from the hot wort and from the finished beer.

But preferences will always be preferences. Some people may like it better, some people may like it less. Some people just don't like change. It's whatever. But if you're trying to create something that is much closer to commercial offerings, especially those of Germany or the macros, then you need to adapt a process as similar to theirs as possible. If you don't care then don't care. But just because you don't care doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference.

 

[divrack]

I dunno why so many o you so mad, over hido lodo, oh no bro, sigh o the times yo.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

I think Brülosophy is great. Those guys are very transparent. They put all the relevant information out there for everyone to see. If people criticize their work, they aren’t defensive. If there are other LODO data points that apply directly to homebrew, they haven’t been called out here. It’s easy to pick on actual results and analysis. On the other hand you can’t disprove what another person’s experience is. Change is that our knowledge in the future will be governed by transparent models built without bias by guys like Brülosophy. Instead of the status quo like some expert or authority saying that something is because they say so.

 

[sixhotdogneck]

I dunno why so many o you so mad, over hido lodo, oh no bro, sigh o the times yo.

 

[bob1852]

The issue is with ignorant people (or just plain a-holes) boasting around that in their uninformed universe

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I don't care for the LODO folks.

There's no reason to call anyone ignorant and an a$$hole over freakin' homebrew.

LODO officially is the new EAC...

 

[beernutz]

I have tried what I call 'as much LODO as possible with my current system' about 5 times over the last year. Those steps include preboiling and rapid chilling of all RO water, calculated use of SMB and Brewtan-B, underletting mash water into the tun, short mashes and gentle boils, and keeping hot break out of the fermenter as much as possible. However I use a copper immersion chiller which isn't recommended for LODO and I don't ferment with a spunding value.

For the LODO beer recipes that I had previously done non-LODO, especially my vanilla cream ale, I could tell a positive difference. I served that LODOish vanilla cream ale at the Emerald Coast Beer Fest along with 11 other kegs from my homebrew club and it was one of only two kegs that were floated FWIW.

I will admit though to not being close to a super taster. All of the beers I've done with my mash up of LODO procedures were good but to me were not positively different enough to justify the extra time, mostly from the preboiling of water, and the extra expense of buying 15 gallons of RO water for a 10 gallon batch. Bottom line is I haven't done a LODOish batch in 6 months and I'm able to live with that because it is just a hobby and the beers I turn out with non-LODO procedures are at least as good as those anyone in my hombrew club makes.

I don't get the negativity towards LODO by those who haven't at least made or even tried or a LODO homebrewed beer or done the LODO mash test. Maybe xkcd nailed it with his 'I can't go to bed yet because someone is wrong on the internet' comic.

 

[bob1852]

My biggest issue with LODO is the HUGE spectrum with techniques that are LODO.

Is there an accepted measurement that kicks you out of LODO into 'as much LODO as possible'?

If not, it's really challenging to state "LODO is better" when there's no standard for what 'true LODO' is....

 

[ba-brewer]

Once you taste the difference you can easily pick it up in non LODO beers.

low oxygen executed correctly is so blatantly obvious of a difference that its pointless to do a triangle test.

Can you put these comments into quantitative terms.

 

[bob1852]

Can you put these comments into quantitative terms.

Exactly.

What are the quantitative thresholds, in ppm, for each step of the process, to be considered LODO; or not.

 

[ba-brewer]

Quite often someone will post that their beer does not taste right and people will advise to allow the beer to age for a while and try it again. Does that technique work with LODO or are you stuck with same profile you get as soon as the beer is carbonated?

I have had some beers where time had mellowed assertive hop combinations, not sure I have the patients to wait more than 6 month for the flavor to fade.

 

[schematix]

The information is out there. But even with the numbers out there, the antis move the goal posts and just say "oh you expect me to buy a DO meter to do this? no way that's too too much work / too hard / too expensive. I already make great beer."

The process in many ways can be reduced to a qualitative one. You don't NEED a DO meter to get most of the benefits.

 

[schematix]

Quite often someone will post that their beer does not taste right and people will advise to allow the beer to age for a while and try it again. Does that technique work with LODO or are you stuck with same profile you get as soon as the beer is carbonated?

I have had some beers where time had mellowed assertive hop combinations, not sure I have the patients to wait more than 6 month for the flavor to fade.

In general the low oxygen approach requires brewers use good brewing practices to begin with. If you regularly find that you need to age out off flavors then you aren't ready to take on low oxygen.

With that said, lagering is an aging process. The real requirement is that beer should finish fermentation under spunding in it's serving vessel. After its spunded in a keg the degradation due to oxygen is significantly slowed. So if you really needed to age something thats the way to do it. Don't let it sit in a carboy for 6 months then keg it. Get it kegged as it nears FG, seal it up, and as long as the pressure doesn't get too high let it do its thing.

 

[bob1852]

The information is out there.But even with the numbers out there, the antis move the goal posts and just say "oh you expect me to buy a DO meter to do this? no way that's too too much work / too hard / too expensive. I already make great beer."

The process in many ways can be reduced to a qualitative one. You don't NEED a DO meter to get most of the benefits.

So, are there numbers to shoot for or not?

Sheesh, and you accuse the "antis" (whatever that means) of moving the goal posts...

 

[cyberbackpacker]

So, are there numbers to shoot for or not?

Cheers! Here are a bunch of great numbers, as well as scientific and popular resources detailing lodo brewing (with more general brewing topics as well).

• < 1 ppm DO during hot side is desired
• < 0.5 ppm DO during hot side is ideal (provides margin)
• Copper, Brass and Aluminum can introduce potential for oxidation reactions
• Brewtan B may serve to mitigate these reactions (collective experience is showing this to be accurate)
• < 0.15 ppm DO during packaging is desired for maximum flavor stability

Other interesting info:

• Tap/RO water can be saturated to ~8-12 ppm
• O2 solubility is ~4-5 ppm at mash temperature
• Pre-boiling/yeast scavenging can reduce DO levels to ≤ ~0.5 ppm
• Pre-boiling alone does not provide active protection against DO
• Metabisulfite (NaMeta or KMeta, SMB or PMB) or the use of a pre-packaged or DIY “Trifecta” (Meta, AA and Gallotannins) alone does not provide sufficient margin
• Dough-in can add ~1-3 ppm DO
• Atmospheric diffusion rate of O2 is ~1-2 ppm/hr

Lastly, for anyone looking for "facts", below is a list of many helpful brewing resources to many aspects of brewing, but also including many scientific peer-reviewed books and documents detailing, supporting, and/or going into greater detail the impact of oxygen on both the hot side and cold side of brewing.

N.B. the first book referenced is literally "the" textbook used worldwide for the last 25+ years by universities teaching brewing science.

Brewing Textbooks

Wolfgang Kunze – “Technology of Brewing and Malting” – English Textbook

Ludwig Narziss – “Die Bierbrauerei, Band 2: Die Technologie der Wurzebereitung, 8 Auflage” – German Textbook

Jean DeClerck – “A Textbook of Brewing” – English Textbook

Hans Michael Esslinger – “A Handbook of Brewing: Processes, Technology and Markets” – English Textbook

D.E. Briggs – “Malts and Malting” – English Textbook

Briggs, Boulton, Brookes and Stevens – “Brewing Science and Practice” – English Textbook

George Fix, PH.D “Principles of Brewing Science: A Study of Serious Brewing Issues, Edition 2”



Analysis of VDK Precursors in Beer

Vanderhaegen, Neven, Verachtert and Derdelinckx – The Chemistry of Beer Aging: A Critical Review

Kanauchi, Simon and Bamforth – Ascorbic Acid Oxidase in Barley and Malt and Its Possible Role During Mashing

Bamforth – Enzymic and Non-Enzymic Oxidation in the Brewhouse: A Theoretical Consideration

Bamforth – pH in Brewing: An Overview

Wainwright and Buckee – Barley and Malt Analysis: A Review

Barnhart – An Improved Gas-Stripping Column for Deoxygenating Water

Carvalho, Goncalves and Guido – Overall Antioxidant Properties of Malt and How They are Influenced by the Individual Constituents of Barley and the Malting Process

Agilent Technologies – DMS in Beer

Anness and Bamforth – Dimethyl Sulphide: A Review

Vuorilehto, Tamminen and Ylasaari – Electrochemical Removal of Dissolved Oxygen from Water

Vuorilehto, Tamminen and Ylasaari – Scale-up of an Electrochemical Cell for Oxygen Removal from Water

Bamforth and Parsons – New Procedures to Improve the Flavor Stability of Beer

DeClerck – rH and its Applications in Brewing (precursor to alkalinity)

Jurkova, Horak, Haskova, Culik, Cejka and Kellner – Control of Antioxidant Beer Activity by the Mashing Process

Stenholm and Home – A New Approach to Limit Dextrinase and its Role in Mashing

Zufall and Tyrell – The Influence of Heavy Metal Ions on Beer Flavor Stability

Narziss – Technological Factors of Flavor Stability

Stephenson, Biawa, Miracle and Bamforth – Laboratory-Scale Studies of the Impact of Oxygen on Mashing

Kunz, Frenzel, Wietstock and Methner – Possibilities to Improve the Antioxidative Capacity of Beer by Optimized Hopping Regimes

Cavano – Sulfites for Oxygen Control

Enge, Semik, Korbel, Srogl and Sekora – Technological Aspects of Infusion and Decoction Mashing

Nielson – The Control of Oxygen in Beer Processing

Bamforth – 125th Anniversary Review: The Non-Biological Instability of Beer

O’Rourke – The Role of Oxygen in Brewing

Lowe and Arendt – The Use and Effects of Lactic Acid Bacteria in Malting and Brewing with their Relationshsips to Antifungal Activity, Mycotoxins and Gushing: A Review

Narziss – The German Beer Law

Pejin, Grujic, Marjanovic, Vujic and Kocic-Tanackov – Determination of Diacetyl and 2,3-Pentanedione in Beer by GC/MS Using Solid-Phase Extraction Columns

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Part 2:

Yu et al – LOX-Less Barley

Ian L Ward – Nature of Beer Hazes

Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry – Oxidative degradation of lipids during mashing

Norja Lasko – Lipolytic and Oxidative Changes of Barley lipids During Malting and Mashing

Norja Lasko – Infulence of Barley and Malt Storage on Lipoxygenase Reaction

Christina Veronique Edwards van Muijen- Development of a Lexicon for Staling Aromas in North American Lager and Analysis ofConsumer Preference and Difference

Hisao KURODA, Hidetoshi KOJIMA, Hirotaka KANEDA & Masachika TAKASHIO – Characterization of 9 Fatty Acid Hydroperoxide Lyase Like Activity in Germinating Barley Seeds That Transforms 9 S Hydroperoxy 10 E 12 Z

Naoyuki Kobayashi, Hirotaka Kaneda, Yukinobu Kano, and Shouhei Koshino – Determination of Fatty Acid Hydroperoxides Produced During the Production of Wort

H. Withouck, A. Boeykens, B. Jaskula, K. Goiris, G. De Rouck, C. Hugelier, G. Aerts – Upstream Beer Stabilisation during Wort Boiling by Addition of Gallotannins and/or PVPP

Jeroen J. Baert, Jessika De Clippeleer, Paul S. Hughes, Luc De Cooman, and Guido Aerts – On the Origin of Free and Bound Staling Aldehydes in Beer

J. Savel – Fenton reaction acceleration using maltose and ascorbic acid

M. Cvengroschová, G. Šepel’ová, and D. Šmogrovicová – Effect of mashing-in temperature on free amino nitrogen concentration and foam stability of beer

Karl Wackerbauer, Stefan Meyna and Sascha Marre – Hydroxy fatty acids as indicators for ageing and the influence of oxygen in the brewhouse on the flavour stability of beer

M. Cvengroschová, G. Šepel’ová, D. Šmogrovicová – Influence of pre-isomerised hop on taste and foam stability of beer

H. Scheuren, F.-J. Methner, K. Sommer and M. Dillenburger – Thermodynamic Validation of Wort Boiling Systems

N. James and U. Stahl – Amino Acid Permeases and their Influence on Flavour Compounds in Beer

H. Scheuren, F.-J. Methner, K. Sommer and M. Dillenburger – Optimization of Wort Boiling by Process Reformulation and Design

T. Praet, F. van Opstaele, B. de Causmaecker, G. Bellaio, G. de Rouck, G. Aerts and L. de Cooman – De novo Formation of Sesquiterpene Oxidation Products during Wort Boiling and Impact of the Kettle Hopping Regime on Sensory Characteristics of Pilot-Scale Lager Beers

R. Feilner and F. F. Jacob – Improving Resistance to Aging and Increasing Haze Stability in Southern German Wheat Beer Through Process Optimization

B. Jaskula-Goiris, B. De Causmaecker, G. De Rouck, L. De Cooman and G. Aerts – Detailed Multivariate Modeling of Beer Staling in Commercial Pale Lagers

T. Kunz, H. Woest, E.-J. Lee, C. Müller and F.-J. Methner – Improvement of the Oxidative Wort and Beer Stability by Increased Unmalted Barley Proportion

T. Kunz, Ch. Reinhardt, L. Eon-Jeong, T. Dörr, A. Radowski and F.-J. Methner – Impact of Fermentable and Non-Fermentable Carbohydrates on the Sweetness, Improvement of Palate Fullness and SO2 Content in Beer

Saison, D., Vanbeneden, N., De Schutter, D. P., Daenen, L., Mertens, T., Delvaux, F. and

Delvaux, F. R. – Characterization of the Flavor and the Chemical Composition of Lager Beer after Ageing in Varying Conditions

J. Savel, P. Kosin and A. Broz – New oxidation destructive analysis (NODA)

C. Schmidt, A. Lagemann, A. Stephan and G. Stettner – Impact of the Use of Inline Pre-isomerized Hop Products on Analytical and Sensory Markers for Beer Ageing

C. Schönberger – The Role of Hops in Flavor Stability – Some Aspects

L. van Hoyweghen, M. Biendl and A. Heyerick – Radical Scavenging Capacity of hop-derived Products

Wietstock, P. C., Kunz, T., Pereira, F. and Methner, F.-J. – Metal Chelation Behavior of Hop Acids in Buffered Model Systems

Wietstock, P. C., Kunz, T. and Methner, F.-J. – Influence of Hopping Technology on Oxidative Stability and Staling-Related Carbonyls in Pale Lager Beer

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Part 3:

P. C. Wietstock, and F.-J. Methner – Formation of Aldehydes by Direct Oxidative Degradation of Amino Acids via Hydroxyl and Ethoxy Radical Attack in Buffered Model Solutions

S. Coghe, G. Derdelinckx and F. R. Delvaux – Effect of non-enzymatic browning on flavour, colour and antioxidative activity of dark specialty malts – A review

S. Fischer, W. Ruß, R. Buckow, V. Heinz, H. Ulmer, J. Behr, R. Meyer-Pittroff, D. Knorr and

R. F. Vogel – Effects of hydrostatic high pressure on microbiological and technological characteristics of beer

M. Herrmann, M. Gastl, F. Thiele and W. Back – Malt volatile compounds (Part I)

M. Herrmann, S. Hanke, D. Kaltner and W. Back – Hop Volatile Compounds (Part I): Analysis of Hop Pellets and Seasonal Variations

S. Hanke, M. Herrmann, J. Rückerl, C. Schönberger, W. Back – Hop Volatile Compounds (Part II): Transfer Rates of Hop Compounds from Hop Pellets to Wort and Beer

T. Hoki, W. Saito, N. Hirota, M. Shirai, K. Takoi, S. Yoshida, M. Shimase, T. Saito, T. Takaoka, M.

Kihara and S. Yamada. – Breeding of Lipoxygenase-1-less Malting Barley Variety CDC PolarStar and Effect of Lipoxygenase-1-less Trait on Beer Quality at Pilot and Commercial Scale Brewing

Kühbeck, F., Back, W., and Krottenthaler, M. – Release of Long-Chain Fatty Acids and Zinc from Hot Trub to Wort

M. Kusche and E. Geiger – Kinetics of haze formation in beer – turbidity and flavan-3-ols

S. Loch-Ahring, F. Decker, S. Robbert and J. T. Andersson – Chill-haze – Identification and Determination of Haze-active Constituents by HPLC and Mass Spectrometry

M. Pöschl, S. Bauer, L. Leal, S. Illing, D. Stretz, U. Wellhoener, C. Tenge and E. Geiger – The Influence of Fermentation-Control on the Colloidal Stability and the Reducing Power of the Resulting Bottom Fermented Beers

T. Reiter, W. Back and M. Krottenthaler – Effects of Mash Acidification

G. De Rouck, B. Jaskula-Goiris, B. De Causmaecker, F. Van Opstaele, J. De Clippeleer,

L. De Cooman and G. Aerts – The impact of wort production on the flavor quality and stability of pale lager beer

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Part 4:

J. Savel – Negative role of oxidised polyphenols and reductones in beer

The Soul of Beer: Malting Barley from Germany

Northern Brewer Instructional Document – Advanced Bottle Conditioning

Scott – Spunding in the Bottle

Hall – Brew by the Numbers: Add Up What’s in Your Beer

Hall – M. Hall – Brew by the Numbers (Spreadsheet)

German Brewing Forum Team – On Brewing Bavarian Helles: Adapting to Low Oxygen Brewing – April 2016

Kallmeyer – To Mash or Not Mash – Kurz/Hoch

Hefebank Weihenstephan – Biological Acidification

Scientia Agricola – Sulfites in Beer: Reviewing Regulation, Analysis and Role

Taylor – The Brewing of Pilsner Beers

Troester – A Closer Look at Efficiency

Troester – Troubleshooting Brewhouse Efficiency

Troester – Understanding Efficiency

Kraus – pH in the Brewery: A Much Underestimated Brewing Variable (Weyermann Malting Company)

Holle – German Brewing Techniques

Brauwelt International – Some reflections on mashing – Part 1 and Part 2

Brauwelt International – Tracking Staling Components in Beer

Brauwelt International – Process Engineering in Brewing Science: Brewhouse Fundamentals – Part 1

Brauwelt International – Possibilities for Optimizing Wort Preparation – Part 2

Brauwelt International – Do brewers need a starch modification indexStandard Specification for Chemical Passivation Treatments for Stainless Steel Parts

Antioxin SBT

Antioxin SB (also repackaged as Antiox-c)

Presentation on Antioxin SBT For Use in Belgian Beer

Antioxin Testing on Flavor and Stability

A New Alternative to Increase The Flavor Stability of The Beer. Using Antioxin SBT

Antioxidants-and-Flavor-Stability-Diss-German-Wurzbacher-2011.pdf

Antioxidants-and-Flavor-Stability-Translated-Wurzbacher-2011.pdf- Translated to English by LOB



Advanced Brewing Materials for AHA Forum

AHA Forum – Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing



Alkalinity Pt. 1

Delange – Alkalinity Pt. 2

Delange – Brewing Water: An Overview

Kolbach (Translated by Delange) – The Influence of Brewing Water on the pH of Wort and Beer

Delange – A Different Perspective on pH

Delange – Acidification of Water

Delange – Estimating Mash pH

Delange – Alkalinity, Hardness, Residual Alkalinity and Malt Phosphate: Factors in the Establishment of Mash pH

Delange – Some Observations on Mash pH Prediction and Control

Delange – Brewing Water

Troester – An Evaluation of the Suitability of ColorpHast Strips for pH Measurements in Home Brewing

Troester – The Effect of Brewing Water and Grist Composition on the pH of the Mash

Schwartz – Quickie Water Chemistry Primer

Brungard – Water Knowledge

 

[schematix]

Prepare for the goal posts to be moved

 

[bob1852]

Cheers! Here are a bunch of great numbers, as well as scientific and popular resources detailing lodo brewing (with more general brewing topics as well).

[Snip]

• Dough-in can add ~1-3 ppm DO
• Atmospheric diffusion rate of O2 is ~1-2 ppm/hr

Thanks.

The two highlighted above are the hardest to mitigate on the hot side (with my equipment, at least).

I stick to limiting O2 on the cold side and have been satisfied with the results.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Most people in this argument probably control their ferm temps.

Ahem, except for us non-believers

 

[schematix]

Dough-in is easy to handle - Underlet + Sulfites.

Atmospheric diffusion is as simple as a mash cap. Even something as simple as a cardboard disk wrapped in plastic wrap is quite effective.

 

[davidabcd]

I am going to attempt to take this thread off topic.

I won't buy beer in bottles anymore because of light and cap oxygen ingress, unless there is a clear date stamp on the bottle and it's less than a month old. In practice this means i almost never buy bottled beer.

Bottled beer is potentially a very inferior if its handled less than perfectly. All beer should be canned. Bottles are for liquor.

Discuss.

I don't think I have ever had a Heineken that wasn't skunk.
But I must be getting lucky when drinking Founder's Dirty Bastard (a glorious beer). Do you not find canned to taste a little metallic? Might not have one but for some reason I shy away from cans.

 

[davidabcd]

Ahem, except for us non-believers

I don't control my ferm temps; that's my basement's job.

 

[bob1852]

Dough-in is easy to handle - Underlet + Sulfites.

Atmospheric diffusion is as simple as a mash cap. Even something as simple as a cardboard disk wrapped in plastic wrap is quite effective.

I won't put sulfites in my beer. My family has sulfite allergies.

 

[Jayjay1976]

In general the low oxygen approach requires brewers use good brewing practices to begin with. If you regularly find that you need to age out off flavors then you aren't ready to take on low oxygen.

With that said, lagering is an aging process. The real requirement is that beer should finish fermentation under spunding in it's serving vessel. After its spunded in a keg the degradation due to oxygen is significantly slowed. So if you really needed to age something thats the way to do it. Don't let it sit in a carboy for 6 months then keg it. Get it kegged as it nears FG, seal it up, and as long as the pressure doesn't get too high let it do its thing.

Nobody is arguing against the value of avoiding cold side oxidation, in fact I'm pulling together equipment to start fermenting under pressure myself. Hot side oxidation on the other hand, is still conjecture.

 

[Iseneye]

I'm not going to read any of that. LODO doesn't make a difference.

With regards to qualitative difference you will get a common descriptor of fresh lingering malt. But in addition to that in hoppy beers you get super clean fresh hop taste.

In the other beers malt flavours are dull, there is a mildly cloying astringent flavour (best I can describe), and hops just don't pop. As an anecdote I went to NW USA and Alaska this year and had around 40 different craft beers plus 2 macro beers. With the exception of St Archer all of the craft beers had that dull slightly astringent not very hoppy flavour. The only beers that didn't have the flavour were the two macro lagers on draft which were clean and tasty. I'm not sure why the st archer one was different. Was very clean and I was a number of beers deep by then.

 

[lump42]

Usually, the homebrewing community embraces new approaches or finding out the real, best way to do things. I have been brewing for over 15 years and am interested in learning more all of the time. Somehow, some folks must have become offended along the way to be anti-LODO.

I think you are forgetting about when batch sparging was new and frowned upon because lower efficiencies and not being real brewing. Or when BIAB was new and it was frowned upon because of lower efficiencies and not being real brewing. Or when brew machines were new and they were frowned upon as cheating and not real brewing.

Human brains like repitition. It allows for efficient thinking. We don't typically like new things or changes. New things are scary.

I still remember getting piled on here when I said I didn't like BIAB because it was messier than my current system. You would have thought I called their mother dirty trash.

I won't be trying LODO because I'm going the other direction with complexity. I'm lazy and even if it is proven to be 'better', I doubt I'll be willing to do the extra work. I haven't even been measuring gravity for most recipes because I don't care. If my SO likes the beer, I've hit my target.

 

[Iseneye]

I won't put sulfites in my beer. My family has sulfite allergies.

That is a good point. However, the sulfites are removed via oxygenating the wort when pitching. I'm not clued up enough on this but I think they get converted to sulfate compounds. If your family is allergic to sulphates then you have an issue because sulphates are produced during fermentation regardless of LODO or not.

I assume your family doesn't have wine or cider either as sulphites are used as a preservative. Not having a go. People can have bad reactions to it from what I've heard.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I would eagerly jump on the LODO bandwagon if someone with credibility published a book explaining how and why it is worth the time, money, and effort. Credibility in this case, to me, means a high-profile expert in homebrewing, who would be able to articulate the improvements in beer quality beyond this "it" factor nonsense.

Until that day comes, its all horsehockey and I'll continue to kick LODO sandcastles when someone just starting out comes here looking for advice and is told to focus on this superstitious nonsense instead of looking at other obvious areas. I guess its the blind faith part that drives me up the wall; the same reason I won't willingly set foot in a church.

What expert could possibly be more credible than your own taste buds? I mean after all, if an expert told you dog poo tasted great, does that mean it would to you?

Any individual is the only "expert" who can determine if the differences are worth it for themselves. Otherwise you're just looking for someone else to GIVE you an opinion rather than bothering to form one yourself.

 

[bob1852]

That is a good point.

It was actually a horrible point, as there's no such thing as sulfite allergies.

But, we are in the DRMM forum, so when in Rome...

 

[LittleRiver]

...there's no such thing as sulfite allergies...

I don't know if the cause is just ignorance of the issue or some other, but you're not even close to being correct with that statement.

I know from personal experience, because I react to sulfites. I get joint pain almost immediately after drinking beer or wine that has been treated with sulfites. It's one of the reasons I home brew.

You don't have to take only my word:

https://www.allergy.org.au/patients/product-allergy/sulfite-allergy

https://www.webmd.com/allergies/sulfite-sensitivity

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/11323-sulfite-sensitivity

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Wow! @cyberbackpacker This thread just became a great brewing resource. Thanks for being the “hand” of my work.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

I think you are forgetting about when batch sparging was new and frowned upon because lower efficiencies and not being real brewing. Or when BIAB was new and it was frowned upon because of lower efficiencies and not being real brewing. Or when brew machines were new and they were frowned upon as cheating and not real brewing.

Human brains like repitition. It allows for efficient thinking. We don't typically like new things or changes. New things are scary.

I still remember getting piled on here when I said I didn't like BIAB because it was messier than my current system. You would have thought I called their mother dirty trash.

I won't be trying LODO because I'm going the other direction with complexity. I'm lazy and even if it is proven to be 'better', I doubt I'll be willing to do the extra work. I haven't even been measuring gravity for most recipes because I don't care. If my SO likes the beer, I've hit my target.

My mother is a saint.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Wow! @cyberbackpacker This thread just became a great brewing resource. Thanks for being the “hand” of my work.

All credit for that comes from @diebeerery who has it listed on his website at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com It all came direct from his homepage.

Additionally much of the research into how to interpret and integrate practices espoused by Narziss and Kunze to the homebrew scale came from a number of German homebrewers who published the first paper on LODO for homebrewing. Diebeerery here in the USA has been the most prominent, to my knowledge, to continue to explore, espouse, and provide great resources for those interested in the topic!