A Genuine Viewpoint Opposing LODO As Unsubstantiated

[schematix]

I don't think I have ever had a Heineken that wasn't skunk.
But I must be getting lucky when drinking Founder's Dirty Bastard (a glorious beer). Do you not find canned to taste a little metallic? Might not have one but for some reason I shy away from cans.

Every green bottled Heineken i've ever had in the US was horrible skunk. I don't know why anyone would drink that foul stuff. It's not that way in Europe though.

A can should never taste metallic. The insides of the cans are sprayed with a protective lacquer so the beer (or soda or whatever) doesn't make any contact with metal. It's been done that way for like ~50 years now.

Cans are superior because they block all light, and the lid is sealed on in a much more robost way. There are multiple turns of metal and the gap between turns is filled.

 

[day_trippr]

...

 

[davidabcd]

Every green bottled Heineken i've ever had in the US was horrible skunk. I don't know why anyone would drink that foul stuff. It's not that way in Europe though.

A can should never taste metallic. The insides of the cans are sprayed with a protective lacquer so the beer (or soda or whatever) doesn't make any contact with metal. It's been done that way for like ~50 years now.

Cans are superior because they block all light, and the lid is sealed on in a much more robost way. There are multiple turns of metal and the gap between turns is filled.

Good to know about the cans. Thanks. I was prejudiced toward them; don't know how it started.
My neighbor buys me Heineken (only bottled) for the occasional favor I do for him. For some reason, he thinks I like them. I never said I like them. I accept the gift graciously of course.

 

[bob1852]

I don't know if the cause is just ignorance of the issue or some other, but you're not even close to being correct with that statement.

I know from personal experience, because I react to sulfites. I get joint pain almost immediately after drinking beer or wine that has been treated with sulfites. It's one of the reasons I home brew.

You don't have to take only my word:

https://www.allergy.org.au/patients/product-allergy/sulfite-allergy

https://www.webmd.com/allergies/sulfite-sensitivity

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/11323-sulfite-sensitivity

Sensitivity isn't an allergy.

 

[LittleRiver]

Sensitivity isn't an allergy.

Wrong again.

Hyper-sensitivity to a substance (i.e. an abnormal immune system reaction to it) is the very definition of the word allergy.

From the Cleveland Clinic article referenced in my previous post:

"Sulfites have been implicated as a cause of asthma symptoms that may range from mild wheezing to potentially life-threatening asthmatic reactions. It is also a rare cause of anaphylaxis (generalized allergic reaction) in people who have become allergic to sulfites."

 

[Bilsch]

I won't put sulfites in my beer. My family has sulfite allergies.

Sulfites are probably the easiest way to scavenge the oxygen introduced during the dough in and mash. Another way is to purge the grain in the MT with a blanket gas like nitrogen or CO2 and is the direction some lodo brewers have gone.

 

[Bassman2003]

Sensitivity isn't an allergy.

You are the one you first typed about Sulfate allergies. Who is to know you we not serious? So far, the three people on this thread that are trying to shoot down LODO also happen to be the most argumentative in their posting.

As shown by the exhaustive list of sources, LODO is not new. Just new to this level of brewing. I agree, it is a lot of work on the hot side and I do not know if I will do add it to my process. Kind of like decoction. Yes it has a history and a place but not in my brew days. So maybe we should start referencing COLODO and HOLODO since many agree with the cold side of things...

BTW, to state this again, "Ignorant" is not an offensive word when used in its original form. I am ignorant of rocket fuel composition... The slang term represents "your stupid". Being offended is really on you and how you want to perceive written text here. I never thought or typed that anybody was or is stupid in this discussion.

 

[mongoose33]

Sulfites are probably the easiest way to scavenge the oxygen introduced during the dough in and mash. Another way is to purge the grain in the MT with a blanket gas like nitrogen or CO2 and is the direction some lodo brewers have gone.

I've wondered how well this works. I have the capacity to do that--a tank and regulator right next to the brew space--but CO2 doesn't really blanket. I wonder if the idea it does that comes from people watching dry ice sublimate and seeing the condensed water vapor flowing downward because it's really cold.

I suspect it acts similarly to purging a keg, i.e., you get a certain percentage of the air out; the more you do that, the less air is left. I don't know if one could do a continuous flow of CO2 into the headspace in place of a mash cap. I've thought about doing that. There would be a cooling effect, but since I'm going to run a RIMS system, that could be dealt with.

 

[aeviaanah]

Cheers! Here are a bunch of great numbers, as well as scientific and popular resources detailing lodo brewing (with more general brewing topics as well).

• < 1 ppm DO during hot side is desired
• < 0.5 ppm DO during hot side is ideal (provides margin)
• Copper, Brass and Aluminum can introduce potential for oxidation reactions
• Brewtan B may serve to mitigate these reactions (collective experience is showing this to be accurate)
• < 0.15 ppm DO during packaging is desired for maximum flavor stability

Other interesting info:

• Tap/RO water can be saturated to ~8-12 ppm
• O2 solubility is ~4-5 ppm at mash temperature
• Pre-boiling/yeast scavenging can reduce DO levels to ≤ ~0.5 ppm
• Pre-boiling alone does not provide active protection against DO
• Metabisulfite (NaMeta or KMeta, SMB or PMB) or the use of a pre-packaged or DIY “Trifecta” (Meta, AA and Gallotannins) alone does not provide sufficient margin
• Dough-in can add ~1-3 ppm DO
• Atmospheric diffusion rate of O2 is ~1-2 ppm/hr

Lastly, for anyone looking for "facts", below is a list of many helpful brewing resources to many aspects of brewing, but also including many scientific peer-reviewed books and documents detailing, supporting, and/or going into greater detail the impact of oxygen on both the hot side and cold side of brewing.

N.B. the first book referenced is literally "the" textbook used worldwide for the last 25+ years by universities teaching brewing science.

Brewing Textbooks

Wolfgang Kunze – “Technology of Brewing and Malting” – English Textbook

Ludwig Narziss – “Die Bierbrauerei, Band 2: Die Technologie der Wurzebereitung, 8 Auflage” – German Textbook

Jean DeClerck – “A Textbook of Brewing” – English Textbook

Hans Michael Esslinger – “A Handbook of Brewing: Processes, Technology and Markets” – English Textbook

D.E. Briggs – “Malts and Malting” – English Textbook

Briggs, Boulton, Brookes and Stevens – “Brewing Science and Practice” – English Textbook

George Fix, PH.D “Principles of Brewing Science: A Study of Serious Brewing Issues, Edition 2”



Analysis of VDK Precursors in Beer

Vanderhaegen, Neven, Verachtert and Derdelinckx – The Chemistry of Beer Aging: A Critical Review

Kanauchi, Simon and Bamforth – Ascorbic Acid Oxidase in Barley and Malt and Its Possible Role During Mashing

Bamforth – Enzymic and Non-Enzymic Oxidation in the Brewhouse: A Theoretical Consideration

Bamforth – pH in Brewing: An Overview

Wainwright and Buckee – Barley and Malt Analysis: A Review

Barnhart – An Improved Gas-Stripping Column for Deoxygenating Water

Carvalho, Goncalves and Guido – Overall Antioxidant Properties of Malt and How They are Influenced by the Individual Constituents of Barley and the Malting Process

Agilent Technologies – DMS in Beer

Anness and Bamforth – Dimethyl Sulphide: A Review

Vuorilehto, Tamminen and Ylasaari – Electrochemical Removal of Dissolved Oxygen from Water

Vuorilehto, Tamminen and Ylasaari – Scale-up of an Electrochemical Cell for Oxygen Removal from Water

Bamforth and Parsons – New Procedures to Improve the Flavor Stability of Beer

DeClerck – rH and its Applications in Brewing (precursor to alkalinity)

Jurkova, Horak, Haskova, Culik, Cejka and Kellner – Control of Antioxidant Beer Activity by the Mashing Process

Stenholm and Home – A New Approach to Limit Dextrinase and its Role in Mashing

Zufall and Tyrell – The Influence of Heavy Metal Ions on Beer Flavor Stability

Narziss – Technological Factors of Flavor Stability

Stephenson, Biawa, Miracle and Bamforth – Laboratory-Scale Studies of the Impact of Oxygen on Mashing

Kunz, Frenzel, Wietstock and Methner – Possibilities to Improve the Antioxidative Capacity of Beer by Optimized Hopping Regimes

Cavano – Sulfites for Oxygen Control

Enge, Semik, Korbel, Srogl and Sekora – Technological Aspects of Infusion and Decoction Mashing

Nielson – The Control of Oxygen in Beer Processing

Bamforth – 125th Anniversary Review: The Non-Biological Instability of Beer

O’Rourke – The Role of Oxygen in Brewing

Lowe and Arendt – The Use and Effects of Lactic Acid Bacteria in Malting and Brewing with their Relationshsips to Antifungal Activity, Mycotoxins and Gushing: A Review

Narziss – The German Beer Law

Pejin, Grujic, Marjanovic, Vujic and Kocic-Tanackov – Determination of Diacetyl and 2,3-Pentanedione in Beer by GC/MS Using Solid-Phase Extraction Columns

Thanks cyber for the much needed!

 

[dmtaylor]

I don't have the time at the moment to read every single post in here. Eventually I probably will. But what I will say right away about LODO is this:

I'm a super lazy person, and I'm not interested in deciphering crap from old textbooks or mega long forum threads. I won't believe LODO is beneficial until at least 20 people do a Brulosophy style experiment where *I* am on the blind tasting panel and *I* can taste a difference reliably with at least 80% confidence in a POSITIVE direction.

But someone is going to have to do all that work. I ain't doing it. Serve me some beers now, dammit. Then I *might* believe you.

Cheers all.

 

[Bilsch]

Blanket gas means to displace the atmosphere within an enclosed container even though it sounds like a 'open top, held in place by gravity' thing which it isn't. I probably should have picked a better term. Usually lodo brewers, myself included, have mostly (well fitting mashcap) or fully enclosed mashtuns.

 

[bob1852]

You are the one you first typed about Sulfate allergies. Who is to know you we not serious?

A) I didn't say sulfate, I said sulfite. There is a difference.

Secondly, if you look at my avatar you'd know I make a lot of mead. I use A LOT of sulfite in mead making, so I know my way around the stuff.

And, D) I've mentioned several times that this is in the DRMM forum.....where things aren't supposed to be so serious.

 

[Bilsch]

I'm a super lazy person, and I'm not interested in deciphering crap from old textbooks or mega long forum threads. I won't believe LODO is beneficial until at least 20 people do a Brulosophy style experiment where *I* am on the blind tasting panel and *I* can taste a difference reliably with at least 80% confidence in a POSITIVE direction.
Cheers all.

I'm curious.. did it take an actual China syndrome event and 20 people to bring you in person evidence that say something like stray paint chips in overflow coolant/steam system could cause a nuclear reactor to melt down?
Or was a book and some good theory on the subject enough to convince you?

 

[bob1852]

I probably should have picked a better term.

Yes, you should've....but I know what you meant.

The blanket of gas myth is one that needs to die!

 

[ba-brewer]

drunk rambling right?

The CO2 blanket works if you have enough of it.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/atlas_ob...46_when_it_released_a_huge_pocket_of_co2.html

When it ran down hill into the valley it layed the grass down like when a river floods.

In still enough air it can pool on the tundra in pothole and kill animals that go down to get a drink.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm curious.. did it take an actual China syndrome event and 20 people to bring you in person evidence that say something like stray paint chips in overflow coolant/steam system could cause a nuclear reactor to melt down?
Or was a book and some good theory on the subject enough to convince you?

Paint chips didn't cause meltdowns at Three Mile Island or Chernobyl. Those events were caused by overconfident techies. Paint chips should be the least of our worries.

Like I said, it's just a job and nothing more, forget I ever mentioned it.

 

[doug293cz]

drunk rambling right?

The CO2 blanket works if you have enough of it.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/atlas_ob...46_when_it_released_a_huge_pocket_of_co2.html

When it ran down hill into the valley it layed the grass down like when a river floods.

In still enough air it can pool on the tundra in pothole and kill animals that go down to get a drink.

It doesn't take a CO2 "blanket" to be lethal. ~100,000 ppm (10%) atmospheric concentration is enough to be lethal in under an hour. If you displace 10% of the normal atmospheric concentration with CO2, you still have close to 19% O2 in the gas mix. 19% O2 is nowhere near LODO.

Brew on

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

BTW, to state this again, "Ignorant" is not an offensive word when used in its original form. I am ignorant of rocket fuel composition... The slang term represents "your stupid". Being offended is really on you and how you want to perceive written text here. I never thought or typed that anybody was or is stupid in this discussion.

For the record, I believe it was me who tossed the word ignorant around willy nilly calling everyone within shouting distance ignorant, knowing full well that even though it is a perfectly useful and not offensive word, that it would piss everyone off anyway.

My apologies, but also for the record to be truly ignorant one has to lack knowledge about something. I actually know quite a bit about German beer and LODO even though I might not have intimate knowledge, I know enough to not be ignorant about either. Perhaps in comparison to others on this site, I know very little, but still in my opinion, not ignorant.

@cyberbackpacker, please parse that body of work to include only the references that include the LODO counter-discussion i.e. those references that say that LODO sucks. Those are the only articles that I want to read thank you.

 

[schematix]

Goal posts are on the move

 

[passedpawn]

This has to be thread of the week. You guys are certifiable. Good stuff.

 

[Sadu]

I'm just gonna go ahead and quality inspect my first LODO batch while y'all argue over technicalities.

TBH I can't pick the "it" flavour, but for a 10 day old lager this is gooooood. The sulfur is way reduced from where it was a few days ago (it needed to be) and obviously it needs to clarify properly. But what I'm getting is crisp, clean, slight honey flavour, not sweet, maybe a little too much bitterness, nice mellow finish. It's closer to a proper German lager than I've got in the past so maybe that is the "it" flavour? I dunno. Don't really care.

So while everyone is having a rant about LODO something bla bla bla - I don't care. This is a good beer, I'm happy, it's the weekend. Prost!

Gonna go ahead and thank Schematix and team-LODO for giving decent free advice to guys like me starting out with this new way of brewing. I'm not 100% on board just yet but I'm enjoying this glass of beer a lot and I'm glad I decided to try this for myself instead of just arguing about it with random strangers.

 

[mongoose33]

Blanket gas means to displace the atmosphere within an enclosed container even though it sounds like a 'open top, held in place by gravity' thing which it isn't. I probably should have picked a better term. Usually lodo brewers, myself included, have mostly (well fitting mashcap) or fully enclosed mashtuns.

I use a mash cap but it didn't take long when I first ran across LODO brewing to ponder how to put CO2 into the headspace above the mash and dispense with the mash cap.

Probably the best would be to do both, unless I could get a near-perfect CO2 atmosphere above the mash. I'm especially thinking about this because I'm implementing a RIMS system to control mash temps, and recirc would seem to be easier if I didn't have to deal with a mash cap.

 

[bob1852]

Goal posts are on the move

 

[Bilsch]

If were not careful this thread might veer onto the rails.

 

[doug293cz]

If were not careful this thread might veer onto the rails.

At least it''s already in the DRMM forum, which may save a mod the trouble of moving it later.

Please remember to stay on topic, and refrain from any personal attacks/innuendo. Posts that violate rules will be deleted, and if things get really out of hand the thread could be locked.

doug293cz

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

So searching around the interwebs a bit, I found that removing dissolved oxygen by boiling isn’t terribly effective. All the sciency guys say you should bubble argon or nitrogen through the water to get levels lower than .2PPM. If it was me I would hook up a Sanke keg to nitrogen and a spunding valve, then purge my HLT with CO2, bottom fill. Heat my liquor, purge my grain and mash tun, bottom fill my mash tun, purge my boil kettle, bottom fill and then your home free. Easy peasy and no sulfates.

 

[bob1852]

So searching around the interwebs a bit, I found that removing dissolved oxygen by boiling isn’t terribly effective. All the sciency guys say you should bubble argon or nitrogen through the water to get levels lower than .2PPM. If it was me I would hook up a Sanke keg to nitrogen and a spunding valve, then purge my HLT with CO2, bottom fill. Heat my liquor, purge my grain and mash tun, bottom fill my mash tun, purge my boil kettle, bottom fill and then your home free. Easy peasy and no sulfates.*

*sulfites

 

[divrack]

Part 4:

J. Savel – Negative role of oxidised polyphenols and reductones in beer

The Soul of Beer: Malting Barley from Germany

Northern Brewer Instructional Document – Advanced Bottle Conditioning

Scott – Spunding in the Bottle

Hall – Brew by the Numbers: Add Up What’s in Your Beer

Hall – M. Hall – Brew by the Numbers (Spreadsheet)

German Brewing Forum Team – On Brewing Bavarian Helles: Adapting to Low Oxygen Brewing – April 2016

Kallmeyer – To Mash or Not Mash – Kurz/Hoch

Hefebank Weihenstephan – Biological Acidification

Scientia Agricola – Sulfites in Beer: Reviewing Regulation, Analysis and Role

Taylor – The Brewing of Pilsner Beers

Troester – A Closer Look at Efficiency

Troester – Troubleshooting Brewhouse Efficiency

Troester – Understanding Efficiency

Kraus – pH in the Brewery: A Much Underestimated Brewing Variable (Weyermann Malting Company)

Holle – German Brewing Techniques

Brauwelt International – Some reflections on mashing – Part 1 and Part 2

Brauwelt International – Tracking Staling Components in Beer

Brauwelt International – Process Engineering in Brewing Science: Brewhouse Fundamentals – Part 1

Brauwelt International – Possibilities for Optimizing Wort Preparation – Part 2

Brauwelt International – Do brewers need a starch modification indexStandard Specification for Chemical Passivation Treatments for Stainless Steel Parts

Antioxin SBT

Antioxin SB (also repackaged as Antiox-c)

Presentation on Antioxin SBT For Use in Belgian Beer

Antioxin Testing on Flavor and Stability

A New Alternative to Increase The Flavor Stability of The Beer. Using Antioxin SBT

Antioxidants-and-Flavor-Stability-Diss-German-Wurzbacher-2011.pdf

Antioxidants-and-Flavor-Stability-Translated-Wurzbacher-2011.pdf- Translated to English by LOB



Advanced Brewing Materials for AHA Forum

AHA Forum – Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing



Alkalinity Pt. 1

Delange – Alkalinity Pt. 2

Delange – Brewing Water: An Overview

Kolbach (Translated by Delange) – The Influence of Brewing Water on the pH of Wort and Beer

Delange – A Different Perspective on pH

Delange – Acidification of Water

Delange – Estimating Mash pH

Delange – Alkalinity, Hardness, Residual Alkalinity and Malt Phosphate: Factors in the Establishment of Mash pH

Delange – Some Observations on Mash pH Prediction and Control

Delange – Brewing Water

Troester – An Evaluation of the Suitability of ColorpHast Strips for pH Measurements in Home Brewing

Troester – The Effect of Brewing Water and Grist Composition on the pH of the Mash

Schwartz – Quickie Water Chemistry Primer

Brungard – Water Knowledge

Citations needed

 

[divrack]

By the way, would it be possible to just Chuck in some sugar and yeast to your brewing water the day before rather than cam tabs? How little might work?

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

By the way, would it be possible to just Chuck in some sugar and yeast to your brewing water the day before rather than cam tabs? How little might work?

Hey yes, since I’ve seen and digested every post on this thread, I’m now a LODO expert, you can even see that I came up with a revolutionary albeit untested LODO practice. I have knowledge of a yeast oxygen scavenging technique that was in a thread that got me to thinking a about this whole thing. I haven’t done it before, but apparently you just chuck the yeast into 78 degree water and it eats up all the O2

 

[divrack]

Hey yes, since I’ve seen and digested every post on this thread, I’m now a LODO expert, you can even see that I came up with a revolutionary albeit untested LODO practice. I have knowledge of a yeast oxygen scavenging technique that was in a thread that got me to thinking a about this whole thing. I haven’t done it before, but apparently you just chuck the yeast into 78 degree water and it eats up all the O2

Without sugar?

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Without sugar?

I think so. Let me go check the thread.

So parrently you need a tiny bit of Dextrose and a couple salts. http://www.********************/brewing-methods/yeast-deoxygenation-method/

 

[cyberbackpacker]

@cyberbackpacker, please parse that body of work to include only the references that include the LODO counter-discussion i.e. those references that say that LODO sucks. Those are the only articles that I want to read thank you.

Don't know if I am being trolled or not, but I am trying to be helpful to those who may be truly interested.

I included every link and resource to show there is a ton out there. Don't care for all of them? Fine, start with Kunze and Narziss... the authors/scientists who, again, literally, wrote the textbooks that are used worldwide in brewing science programs for the better part of 30 years.

 

[dmtaylor]

You are not being trolled. You've just stumbled into the Drunken Ramblings and Mindless Mumbling forum where a helpful attitude is unnecessary.

 

[Bilsch]

So searching around the interwebs a bit, I found that removing dissolved oxygen by boiling isn’t terribly effective. All the sciency guys say you should bubble argon or nitrogen through the water to get levels lower than .2PPM. If it was me I would hook up a Sanke keg to nitrogen and a spunding valve, then purge my HLT with CO2, bottom fill. Heat my liquor, purge my grain and mash tun, bottom fill my mash tun, purge my boil kettle, bottom fill and then your home free. Easy peasy and no sulfates.

Damn man.. your thinking exactly like an experienced lodo brewer!! You know, the engineering type that's coming up with cutting edge solutions. I expect to see you in the other forum soon.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Don't know if I am being trolled or not, but I am trying to be helpful to those who may be truly interested.

I included every link and resource to show there is a ton out there. Don't care for all of them? Fine, start with Kunze and Narziss... the authors/scientists who, again, literally, wrote the textbooks that are used worldwide in brewing science programs for the better part of 30 years.

I wasn’t trolling, but I wasn’t really being serious either.

 

[Queequeg]

I think the LODO thing is interesting and look forward to whatever happens. I don’t really have a dog in the fight.

There is one thing about LODO claims I don’t understand and maybe someone can explain it.

In another forum I was in a thread on how to make Hefeweizen... I commented that I was never able to get the orange hue and malty taste of a Paulaner etc., and was told that it’s because those are all LODO breweries.

Hefeweizen has been around a long time. Were those ancient breweries LODO? If so how did they do it with primitive gear? If it’s only possible with more modern gear, then at some point there had to be a switch from lesser beer to better beer. Seems like it would be dramatic, but we don’t talk about it.

In the end I’ll do what it takes to make better beer. Someone, please help me make a perfect Hefeweizen!

This is an extremely important point, I think there is this idea that all German breweries are LODO. The reality is LODO is prohibitively expensive on commerical scale for all but the biggest breweries. I suspect of the 300 or so Franconian microbreweries none are LODO.

So when people say LODO is required to make great beer, that is plainly false. What they actually mean is you can't emulate certain German breweries without it.

I created a thread it the LODO forum asking which breweries actually have LODO, so I could go and taste on my next visit to Germany which will likely be the Munich area.

No one replied, which suggests no one actually knows, or at least not many people.

Now none of this doesn't mean LODO doesn't produce better beer, rather that is not necessary to produce great beer nor is it indicative of authenticity.

 

[Queequeg]

I think it's also important to address the " you haven't tried LODO" arguement.

This is essentially credentialism, which is odious because it allows LODO proponents to dismiss criticism without need to address the critique itself.

Also because of confirmatory bias especially associated with sensory analysis simply saying you can notice the difference doesn't qualify it as actually making a difference. That needs to be establish through blind taste tests and analysis by HPLC. Otherwise is unscientific and is used simply to confirm bias.

 

[NeoBrew]

Two points:

1. Taste preference is inherently a matter of individual perspective. It is nearly impossible to tell someone what they should or should not like.

2. All of this other stuff is science. It's not a matter of conjecture, there are no 'opinions' to scientific facts. (How about that for throwing a grenade in the fox hole?)

This is not to say that people can shoot for differing goals to achieve the taste they want in a beer. LODO would be appropriate for some purposes, and not others.

 

[Murphys_Law]

I’ve been thinking about all the arguments re LODO and came to the conclusion that I really don’t care how you brew your damn beer!

Man, you could steal a fireman’s boot from the street corner this Labor Day weekend and ferment in that for all I care! If you say it works for you and you like that crap then...!

[emoji1]