A Genuine Viewpoint Opposing LODO As Unsubstantiated

[Gnomebrewer]

I thought I might just throw in a slightly different viewpoint into this discussion. My day job is as a hardcore biochemist and based on this expertise I have never had any doubts at all that there is absolutely something to LODO. So, I investigated it. I tried all of the beers I could get my hand on that were purportedly LODO - fresh and in cans. I didn't really care for them. Yes, I have cut beer-drinking swathes across Germany a couple of times and I wasn't blown away by any of the beers. Nevertheless, I went full-on in adopting LODO practices into my own brewing (stopping just short of a stainless chiller, but I used Brewtan B). It definitely changed the qualities of my beers to be more like the commercial LODO beers I had tried. Success! .. .. except I didn't really care that much for the beers. It seems that I just don't really like the "it" factor.. ..maybe that goes hand-in-hand with preferring hoppy beers? I continue to be obsessive about LODO on the cold-side - this has a huge impact on preserving the integrity of flavours and the longevity of the beer (particularly hoppy ones). Regarding LODO on the hot-side, there is definitely something to it but I can no longer be convinced that it should be considered as part of best brewing practice. My feeling is that it is another knob to twiddle to achieve flavours that one may or may not like, akin to liking or disliking hoppy styles or beers with/without lots of crystal malts.

This is so close to my LODO experience that I thought I'd forgotten writing the response. LODO DOES make a difference. I brewed about 30 batches this way after it was first talked about and my beer was VERY different. I haven't been to Germany, but have had beer served from fresh kegs that were bought in (refrigerated transport), to near home. I get what 'it' is, but prefer other beers. I got 'it' from my LODO beers, but preferred some of my other beers. One of my favourite styles is English Bitter which, as noted earlier, is often brewed with major splashing. I brewed some LODO and it lost of the rich fruity flavours that I like (which I now know are oxidised flavours) - it was nice and fresh tasting, but not the same. I too now use LODO techniques on the cold side (keg spund etc.) and like what it does for my beer. IME, cold side LODO is what is critical for hop flavour and aroma.

I find it interesting that LODO brewers keep referring to the quality of Belgian beer as well as German, but a look at Belgian techniques will show that some of the best beers from the region are not LODO. For example, many (some?) use copper kettles and open fermenters (and most bottle condition) which are no-no's in LODO. I preferred my Belgians (and I really like my Belgian beers) non LODO (but again, have benefitted from the LODO cold side). My favourite hefeweizen is brewed locally (moobrew) - it's a fantastic representation with a nice banana and clove balance that keeps some mouthfeel (too many are thin and tart). Their water is straight from the tap (filtered) which would oxidise the wort immediately.

I like something I recently read in Brew Like a Monk. It's something along the lines of 'close your eyes and think about what you want to brew, think about the taste, the aromas, the sensation when you drink it, then think about how you would make that happen'. Well, for me, LODO is a string to my bow that I could use to achieve some beer qualities if they were qualities that I wanted. Anyone who hasn't tried it shouldn't say it doesn't work, it does. It just that what it does isn't for everyone. And it doesn't make every beer better - it changes them.

 

[divrack]

After having mice getting to my grain I've decided to switch to LOPOO brewing.
I'll let you know how it goes, if it has the sh(IT) factor etc.

 

[dmtaylor]

A friend and I want to know........... does "it" taste like grapes in any way at all? Like fresh grape juice? If not, does anyone know exactly how to get "that grapey flavor" in a German lager?? My friend is able to duplicate German lagers with ease, but when I brew similar recipes, I have no luck. Neither one of us understands how our beers can be so different. Also, FWIW, neither of us has "gone LODO". We both just mash and sparge like the average American idiot.

If anyone can help, I would sincerely appreciate it.

 

[mongoose33]

A friend and I want to know........... does "it" taste like grapes in any way at all? Like fresh grape juice? If not, does anyone know exactly how to get "that grapey flavor" in a German lager?? My friend is able to duplicate German lagers with ease, but when I brew similar recipes, I have no luck. Neither one of us understands how our beers can be so different. Also, FWIW, neither of us has "gone LODO". We both just mash and sparge like the average American idiot.

If anyone can help, I would sincerely appreciate it.

When you say "similar" recipes, what do you mean? And why not the same exact one?

Is your water the same? Are you using the same water amendments? If the water isn't the same, what about getting some of his and using that, along with whatever amendments your friend makes? And brew the same recipe.

 

[dmtaylor]

When you say "similar" recipes, what do you mean? And why not the same exact one?

Is your water the same? Are you using the same water amendments? If the water isn't the same, what about getting some of his and using that, along with whatever amendments your friend makes? And brew the same recipe.

Nevermind.

Those who don't taste grapes in German lagers can ignore my questions.

 

[mongoose33]

Nevermind.

Those who don't taste grapes in German lagers can ignore my questions.

Whether I can taste grapes in German lagers or not, those were the right questions. How about the answers?

 

[dmtaylor]

Whether I can taste grapes in German lagers or not, those were the right questions. How about the answers?

But source of grapiness is exactly what I want to know. If you don't taste it, then I'm not interested in your questions or answers. I just want to know if the "grape" = "it", and how to get "that authentic German grapiness" regardless of whether that's "it" or not. Anything else is tangential rubbish. Guess I could open a different thread, but since there already was one, with basically no responses, I thought I might get some more responses hijacking here. I dunno... whatever... rape me again, I don't care.

 

[mongoose33]

But source of grapiness is exactly what I want to know. If you don't taste it, then I'm not interested in your questions or answers. I just want to know if the "grape" = "it", and how to get "that authentic German grapiness" regardless of whether that's "it" or not. Anything else is tangential rubbish. Guess I could open a different thread, but since there already was one, with basically no responses, I thought I might get some more responses hijacking here. I dunno... whatever... rape me again, I don't care.

Then you decided to change the question from "If anyone can help, I would sincerely appreciate it" to, apparently, "what causes grapiness?"

That's ok, I suppose. I was responding to the question you asked about help, which was apparently not to the one to which you really wanted an answer. Probably would be better to just ask the one question rather than two.

 

[Murphys_Law]

But source of grapiness is exactly what I want to know. If you don't taste it, then I'm not interested in your questions or answers. I just want to know if the "grape" = "it", and how to get "that authentic German grapiness" regardless of whether that's "it" or not. Anything else is tangential rubbish. Guess I could open a different thread, but since there already was one, with basically no responses, I thought I might get some more responses hijacking here. I dunno... whatever... rape me again, I don't care.

I think you’re possibly confusing Italian wine with German lager. [emoji1]

 

[dmtaylor]

Then you decided to change the question from "If anyone can help, I would sincerely appreciate it" to, apparently, "what causes grapiness?"

That's ok, I suppose. I was responding to the question you asked about help, which was apparently not to the one to which you really wanted an answer. Probably would be better to just ask the one question rather than two.

Facts:

The following sentences (actually the second is a sentence fragment, more like two parts of a single question) continue to contain question marks: "does 'it' taste like grapes in any way at all? Like fresh grape juice? If not, does anyone know exactly how to get 'that grapey flavor' in a German lager??"

The sentence "If anyone can help, I would sincerely appreciate it" does not contain a question mark. It also contains an If statement. It shouldn't need to be said, but I'll say it anyway now: If anyone cannot or will not help, then ignore.

 

[gnor]

Regarding to the grape taste in German Lager was mentioned in the link below;
https://www.homebrewersassociation....association.org/forum/index.php?topic=26580.0

 

[dmtaylor]

Regarding to the grape taste in German Lager was mentioned in the link below;
https://www.homebrewersassociation....association.org/forum/index.php?topic=26580.0

Thanks much! Seeing as how the water man himself was asking the same question, with responses that might indicate more of a malt component, I'm inclined to believe water quality has little if anything to do with it.

 

[schematix]

I have heard the grape flavor attributed to the usage of sauergut (a.k.a biological acidification)

 

[divrack]

Facts:

The following sentences (actually the second is a sentence fragment, more like two parts of a single question) continue to contain question marks: "does 'it' taste like grapes in any way at all? Like fresh grape juice? If not, does anyone know exactly how to get 'that grapey flavor' in a German lager??"

The sentence "If anyone can help, I would sincerely appreciate it" does not contain a question mark. It also contains an If statement. It shouldn't need to be said, but I'll say it anyway now: If anyone cannot or will not help, then ignore.

Not that I want to jump into an internet argument particularly, but it seems to me there's no call to take the tone you took in response to the response to your question that seemed to be a fairly reasonable attempt to get to the bottom of why your friends beer had a quality yours didn't that you were after. Taste is subjective after all, plenty people pop up all the time misusing or with unusual descriptors of flavour here that aren't particularly helpful. Asking if people can help is open ended given the preceding post especially as you said " help... appreciated" which would seem to not be the case.
As for grapiness I can't say I know what you mean as to me different grapes taste completely different, probably why you never hear wine described as grape flavour. Hall blanc and Nelson sauv taste like sauv blanc wine. Bramling tastes to me like Pino noir sometimes. Saflager 23 generally tasted like wine coolers. Some grapes taste like acetaldehyde
You seemed to answer the question about whether the magic it factor was grapiness yourself by stating that your friend gets it who doesn't do lodo and the lodo people all claim the it factor as being the thing, but I don't know..
Personally I've drank a lot of beer in Germany and never found any distinguishable features to it really, but I've never noticed Guinness in Ireland tastes any different despite popular opinion so who am I to judge.
I do think different maltsters produce different base malts that greatly affect the beer for what it's worth. Especially in pales.
Apologies for all the tangential rubbish.
A final point, requiring help and knowing what the form such help might take are often not connected. Thus sayeth I.
Also why is any thread on lodo or neipa so like politics threads?

 

[dmtaylor]

Not that I want to jump into an internet argument particularly, but it seems to me there's no call to take the tone you took in response to the response to your question that seemed to be a fairly reasonable attempt to get to the bottom of why your friends beer had a quality yours didn't that you were after. Taste is subjective after all, plenty people pop up all the time misusing or with unusual descriptors of flavour here that aren't particularly helpful. Asking if people can help is open ended given the preceding post especially as you said " help... appreciated" which would seem to not be the case.
As for grapiness I can't say I know what you mean as to me different grapes taste completely different, probably why you never hear wine described as grape flavour. Hall blanc and Nelson sauv taste like sauv blanc wine. Bramling tastes to me like Pino noir sometimes. Saflager 23 generally tasted like wine coolers. Some grapes taste like acetaldehyde
You seemed to answer the question about whether the magic it factor was grapiness yourself by stating that your friend gets it who doesn't do lodo and the lodo people all claim the it factor as being the thing, but I don't know..
Personally I've drank a lot of beer in Germany and never found any distinguishable features to it really, but I've never noticed Guinness in Ireland tastes any different despite popular opinion so who am I to judge.
I do think different maltsters produce different base malts that greatly affect the beer for what it's worth. Especially in pales.
Apologies for all the tangential rubbish.
A final point, requiring help and knowing what the form such help might take are often not connected. Thus sayeth I.

Not tangential rubbish in the slightest. I find almost all of the input you provided here to be helpful. Sincere thanks. Help is appreciated.

What I mean by "grapey" is specifically a Welch's Concord grape juice flavor, as stated by Mr. Brungard in the link in a previous post.

I confess, I know what "it" is to me, but what I don't know is whether my "it" is the same as others' "it". The two "it"s might not be the same thing. That's why I inquire what others think "it" is. Is "it" Concord grape to anyone else? Or is that just me? There I go asking questions again, hope I don't confuse anyone.

Sorry, I cannot help but snark. I enjoy it. Please accept it for what it is: entertainment for myself and many others, at the expense of few. Yeah, I'm kind of a dick occasionally. I intend it mostly in jest. I'm a nicer guy in real life, almost always a genuinely friendly smile on my face. If anyone is offended, sorry, just ignore me. We are on the Mindless Mumbling forum, after all.........

Cheers all. Sincerely, I mean it -- have a lovely day.

 

[Iseneye]

Not tangential rubbish in the slightest. I find almost all of the input you provided here to be helpful. Sincere thanks. Help is appreciated.

What I mean by "grapey" is specifically a Welch's Concord grape juice flavor, as stated by Mr. Brungard in the link in a previous post.

I confess, I know what "it" is to me, but what I don't know is whether my "it" is the same as others' "it". The two "it"s might not be the same thing. That's why I inquire what others think "it" is. Is "it" Concord grape to anyone else? Or is that just me? There I go asking questions again, hope I don't confuse anyone.

Sorry, I cannot help but snark. I enjoy it. Please accept it for what it is: entertainment for myself and many others, at the expense of few. Yeah, I'm kind of a dick occasionally. I intend it mostly in jest. I'm a nicer guy in real life, almost always a genuinely friendly smile on my face. If anyone is offended, sorry, just ignore me. We are on the Mindless Mumbling forum, after all.........



They say opinions are like a-holes... everyone has one and they all stink.

Cheers all. Sincerely, I mean it -- have a lovely day.

The it factor from lodo is the fresh unoxidised malt flavour. The grape flavour is from acidification according to the lodo guys.

 

[dmtaylor]

The it factor from lodo is the fresh unoxidised malt flavour. The grape flavour is from acidification according to the lodo guys.

Thanks, that confirms what I appear to be gathering so far. I like grapey. I don't like LODO "it". Good to know actually, I feel even better now in not pursuing LODO.

 

[Paulaner]

Grow a Sauergut culture, acidify your mash and boil with it and woola you have the grape flavor, it'll probably help if you brew lodo also.

 

[ba-brewer]

I guess that depends on the definition of reasonably.
So this was made about 6 months ago and stored in the hottest months of the year. Could be good or maybe not depending on how it was cared for. More often then not though the Bit I get is good. Your nose should tell you pretty quickly if you got a good one. Should smell like fresh noble hops and ripe grain fields after a light rain. That's the best way I can describe it.

No hop aroma and maybe a slight hop flavor, initial taste was sweet with a honey like flavor and some bitterness on the back end as an after taste. Is the honey like flavor normal?

 

[Bilsch]

Just cracked open a Bit myself as I'm sitting down to reply. It was brewed in May of 2018 so not super fresh but not bad either. For me the fresh malt flavors, or it if you prefer, are mostly in the nose. As soon as the glass gets to my face I know if the beer is going to be good example of a fresh beer before even opening my mouth. This one tonight is not screaming malt like I expect but it's still there. While Bitburger is Pils and Munich malt for me the taste is mostly clean pils with just a touch of Munich sweetness. I don't get honey at all but everyone's palate is different so possibly you perceive it that way. More then likely though it's because your beer was treated poorly on it's way to you. One of the most pleasurable things about Bitburger in my mind is that the flavors are fleeting and not cloying. Normally I don't drink beers this bitter but in this case the bitterness is very clean and gone from your mouth quickly thus inviting another sip.

 

[Bilsch]

Sorry, I cannot help but snark. I enjoy it. Please accept it for what it is: entertainment for myself and many others, at the expense of few. Yeah, I'm kind of a dick occasionally. I intend it mostly in jest. I'm a nicer guy in real life, almost always a genuinely friendly smile on my face. If anyone is offended, sorry, just ignore me. We are on the Mindless Mumbling forum, after all.........

I wonder if dickishness is caused by not getting enough "it" in ones diet?
Probably need some more in my daily intake as well.

 

[Dland]

Some of this has taken quite the serious tone,...for the drunken rameblins forum.

low side lodo good, (just to stay on topic. [; )

(takes some work to avoid the emodicoms, or what ever the bleep they're called)

 

[arturo7]

(takes some work to avoid the emodicoms, or what ever the bleep they're called)

Frikin emodicoms should all be dipleted!

 

[mongoose33]

Frikin emodicoms should all be dipleted!

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

So, I was thinking about it. If fresh malt character is what we are going for with LODO, then maybe there is some easier way to do it like add a strong anti-oxidant like vitamin C to the mash. Can yeast handle vitamin C? I don’t think it would boil off.

 

[schematix]

So, I was thinking about it. If fresh malt character is what we are going for with LODO, then maybe there is some easier way to do it like add a strong anti-oxidant like vitamin C to the mash. Can yeast handle vitamin C? I don’t think it would boil off.

it's not powerful enough on its own. it's been tested.

it is used as part of some additives though, usually SMB + gallotannins + ascorbic acid (vit C).

Pre-boil is the only known effective, and cost effective way at this point.

 

[Bilsch]

So, I was thinking about it. If fresh malt character is what we are going for with LODO, then maybe there is some easier way to do it like add a strong anti-oxidant like vitamin C to the mash. Can yeast handle vitamin C? I don’t think it would boil off.

You may have just tripped and fallen in the rabbit hole. Once your in, it's hard to go back.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Maybe bruin water could make a certified LODO product. I might be willing to give it a try if someone else did the work and the water was genuinely O2 free so that I’m not just half assing it but “really” doing it.

 

[divrack]

Not tangential rubbish in the slightest. I find almost all of the input you provided here to be helpful. Sincere thanks. Help is appreciated.

What I mean by "grapey" is specifically a Welch's Concord grape juice flavor, as stated by Mr. Brungard in the link in a previous post.

I confess, I know what "it" is to me, but what I don't know is whether my "it" is the same as others' "it". The two "it"s might not be the same thing. That's why I inquire what others think "it" is. Is "it" Concord grape to anyone else? Or is that just me? There I go asking questions again, hope I don't confuse anyone.

Sorry, I cannot help but snark. I enjoy it. Please accept it for what it is: entertainment for myself and many others, at the expense of few. Yeah, I'm kind of a dick occasionally. I intend it mostly in jest. I'm a nicer guy in real life, almost always a genuinely friendly smile on my face. If anyone is offended, sorry, just ignore me. We are on the Mindless Mumbling forum, after all.........



They say opinions are like a-holes... everyone has one and they all stink.

Cheers all. Sincerely, I mean it -- have a lovely day.

Ha.
I have always noticed something of a correlation between DO content of a subject and general tolerance...
That must be the variable as both lodo and neipa require minimising oxygen.
I feel a thesis coming on.
Perhaps had Hitler drank more lazy Belgian beer instead of reignhotsgebloombum stuff we might have avoided all that unpleasantness.

 

[Big Monk]

But couldn't I say the same thing? You haven't had my Belgian (style) strong dark ale that turns out just the way I like it, so how do you know it is inferior?

BTW, is the LODO thing style dependent? Would you expect dramatic improvement in, say, the above style?

As someone who brews Trappist inspired beers exclusively, I can say yes, with some caveats.

I did have to unlearn much of what I knew about those beers from a recipe formulation standpoint. I love BLAM and I think that for those beers it really is a great resource, especially since it presents so much information that IS NOT recipe related (i.e. lots of "between the lines" info), but I found myself experimenting with mixed base malts, more cara malts, less dark syrups, different fermentation methods, less CO2 volumes, and spunding and came out the other side with some of the most flavorful Dubbel, Tripel, and Dark Strong beers that I had ever brewed.

So my answer is yes. I think to start you should always brew the same beer normally and with low oxygen methods. From there, you will likely want to adjust recipes to optimize them in the new methods.

Do what works for you.

 

[Big Monk]

I am not singling anyone out, but collectively I have gotten the feeling that those promoting LODO, look down on those who don't feel that you need to progress to LODO.

It's tough because we have a lot of people following the methods and we can't control what everyone says. Many of the people who we would consider being in our direct sphere of influence (our forum Admin, Mods, and about a dozen regular posters) try to stay extremely civil and presents the facts. Others go a little overboard.

I think I speak for myself and for @Die_Beerery when I say that we want anyone who thinks that brewing with low oxygen methods may help them to feel welcome and comfortable asking questions about how to implement it. It's why we made the website, the forum, and why we have all the references posted at the site as well. It's why it has stayed there free of charge as well.

We want people to ask questions. We want people to feel comfortable.

 

[dmtaylor]

But, do you want people to feel bombarded?

 

[4of7]

I made a joke thread about LODO trying to provoke a discussion, but it was soon to be relegated to the drunken ramblings forum which honestly was probably appropriate.

The thing is, someone went off a little in the LODO forum and after a short time a couple of LODOrs suggested that the LODO forum was a safe place for the technique to be discussed without dissenters coming in and kicking their sand castles down.

So generally, I oppose the LODO ideas for several reasons, but feel like we ought to be able to have a civilized discussion about it. I will lay my ideas out there and then if someone would like to kick down my sand castle, I would like that very much.

1. The “it” factor that German beers have demonstrates that LODO techniques are valid.

This supposes that German brewers make better beer than Americans or otherwhere. I am not a BJCP or Cicerone so I can’t really know for sure, but I’ve definitely had some “it” factor beers right here in the U.S. While staying at The Alise in Chicago, I had a brown ale from Boulevard that I couldn’t stop drinking. Usually, I try everything on tap over some days if I’m at a hotel for a while, but that beer was so good I kept going back for it. Just sayin’ that Germans don’t have a license for being the only ones who can make tasty beer. You might ask, “How much German beer in Germany have you had sir?” I can quite honestly say, I have never been to Germany, but I can’t concede to not knowing. Conformation bias is a powerful thing and I would bet a lot of my own money that I would enjoy German beer in Germany more just because I was drinking it on draft from a bar retrofitted into a castle somewhere in Nuremberg.

2. Commercial breweries fight oxidation like it was the devil himself.

So they probably do. I really can’t say if they do, but again and again, commercial processes are being found to be anywhere from somewhat valid to completely invalid to homebrewers. I would even venture to say that sanitation is a whole different ballgame at the commercial level. They just make so much more beer than most of us. Also, there is a certain economy of scale that commercial breweries must abide by. For example, you don’t need as much hops or specialty malts to achieve the same effect when the batches are massively scaled up. There are so many factors in making beer, how can we know that this is the factor that counts?

3. My beer was good before LODO, but since I started LODO, my beer is spectacular.

Maybe so. It isn’t my place to tell someone why they should do this or that. We all want to think we are super knowledgeable, but the fact is, most of us are just going by conjecture and hearsay anyway. But there is a corollary to the work lost fallacy that says, “The harder you work at something, the better the result.” And there is a correlation, zero effort generally means zero results and lots of effort means somewhere between zero - great results. But consistency is the hobgoblin of the simple mind and working hard at the right things counts more than just working hard. That brings me to the Brülosophy exBeeriment in which LODO beer vs. normal beer had an uncharacteristic significant result. Further tasters preferred the normal beer over the LODO beer. So I don’t have to taste a LODO beer to know that it isn’t preferred, someone has already done it for me. Besides, I am biased against LODO beer, so if I had one, I doubt I would like it.

4. Why do I care?

If I get any responses to my thread I predict that many will say, “why do you care? You brew your beer the way you want to and I’ll brew mine the way I want to. Why all the drama?” The answer to that is I do care what my fellow brewers say a great deal, you all have helped me understand the importance of sanitation, have guided me to making better recipes, inspired me to try partigyle and exotic hops. I care what people say on here and if someone can demonstrably say that brewing during a full moon makes better beer, then I might just brew during a full moon. But, if someone says that LODO is better because they say so, welllllll, that might not be enough for me.

Even if I don’t get a response, I’m glad I got that off my chest.

Actually I was living in West Germany for two years.. I drank a lot of German beer.. On a hot summer day First time I drank warm served beer in bottles.. I know crazy right.. I didn't drink any American beer during that time. I really appreciate German beer like bitburg.. I will tell you that homebrew is better only because it's homebrew..

 

[Big Monk]

But, do you want people to feel bombarded?

Well, it's a fine line, right?

We want to get people info if they ask for it, which is often.

We also want to correct bad information or confusion about certain things, which can rub people the wrong way sometimes.

Do we (the Royal we, being Me, Bryan, and many of the others that are in the certain sphere of influence we have) sometimes interject in situations where we are better off laying low? Yes, although Bryan and I have laid back quite a bit recently. We obviously can't control everyone who is passionate about the methods and trying to issue some sort of edict or memorandum to do so would only confirm us as the Cult leaders many think we are.

So to answer your question: No, we do not want to alienate or bombard people.

I'll ask another though: Can we stop others from doing so? Unfortunately, no. Passionate people are often very excited and vocal about said passion, not always to everyone's benefit.

I do think there is a lot of good in this and other discussions that are similar. We are obviously always trying to evolve the delivery. In fact, changing the conversation was a major part of Bryan and I meeting up and collaborating in 2016. We put the past behind us (I was always very vocal about the GBF and Bryan in particular) and have had a very fruitful partnership since then.

 

[tmendick]

The thing that drives me nuts on these LODO posts is when people act like those of us not in the "cool club" are advocating for intentionally adding oxygen throughout the process. As a Non-LODOer, I know reducing oxygen is better than not, but I don't want to completely reconfigure my system and brewday(s) to fall into the LODO cult to make a beer that is slightly better.

In other words, LODO has benefits, but the condescension from the LODOers, cost and time makes me not want to do it myself. Brew how you want.

 

[dmtaylor]

From what I understand, LODO doesn't necessarily make "better" beer either. It will be different, but "better" is purely in the mouth of the beerholder.

 

[303Dan]

I think this topic is so divisive because a lot of it drives towards your entire mentality and approach to brewing beer. There are all different kinds of beer brewers that span the spectrum between absolute perfectionists that are constantly chasing that last 1-2% at all costs and those whose primary goal is to find ways to save time and money above all else. Those are the two extremes and there are people on all the degrees in between. I'm not in any way saying that all or even most that are anti-LODO fall into the latter extreme category, or that you have to be in the former category to think it's worth while, by the way. Only that LODO, to me, is a set of processes that kind of requires you to be closer to the first category in order to believe it could be worth while and to actually implement fully. All approaches are valid, it just comes down to what your goals are and what about the process gives you joy. For me, the process and learning give me as much joy as the end product, so the idea of making process changes or adding a little time to my brew day doesn't bother me at all, even if it is in the pursuit of a small improvement. Definitely doesn't apply to everyone, nor should it.

I started drinking craft beer in Boulder, CO in the mid 1990s and have been brewing at home to some degree since the late 1990s. I'm to the point now, finally, where I feel like the beer I make is 98% of the way to matching what, to me, are the very best commercial examples of the styles I work on the most. But that last 2% is a goal for me and one that I'm willing to spend a lot of time and effort (or money) to achieve. I'm lucky to be in a position where I can dedicated all three of those resources. I have no idea if LODO techniques can get me part or all of the way to that goal. But now that I know it exists and after hours and hours of reading about it and researching on my own, I've convinced myself that it's at least possible that it could improve my beers, and I have to try it. I'm in the process now of designing the changes to my system and processes to give it a go in January. I already do some things on the hot side that are "in the spirit" of LODO, and my cold side processes are already there for the most part. Outside of over-dosing SMB, I can't think of a way that it could HURT the quality of my beer. So, to me, even if it doesn't get me where I want to go, the changes I will have made to my system and processes are at the very worst, neutral.

All that being said:
1. I would never presume to tell anyone that the beer they're making isn't good. First of all, I most likely haven't tried their beer, and second of all, "good" is a completely personal thing that's based on individual preferences, specific goals, etc. Not to mention, it's just not my place to make that sort of judgement unless they ask me for it.
2. Beer making as a hobby should be fun, period. If "fun" for you is constantly chasing process improvements and obsessing about improving your beer even a little bit, then I think the LODO stuff would definitely appeal to you. If that sounds painful, then I'm sure it probably doesn't appeal to you. And again before anyone thinks I'm making a direct correlation between effort/time/money and quality, I'm not. Honestly, I'm not. I've had beers from a buddy of mine that violates about every "rule" I know of that have been extremely enjoyable.

Good discussion, in any event.

Happy brewing, everyone!

Dan

 

[mongoose33]

I've been trying to do LODO techniques now for about a year. I've revamped the brewing space, gone all-electric, shifted chilling over to SS from copper, have a conical fermenter to isolate the wort/beer during/following fermentation, purge kegs, do closed transfers...I recently went to a RIMS system to try to limit oxygen exposure during the mash...that's still a work in progress.

The whole idea made sense to me, but I couldn't find any to try so as to test it. So I decided to make my own. There are several interim conclusions I have regarding this:

1. It's harder to do and more involved than most other brewing. I long for the days of BIAB.

2. It clearly has an effect. Whether YOU will see the effect as worth the time and effort, who knows?

3. I brewed a lot of great beer before LODO. One of the benefits of LODO is increased shelf life. If you don't let beer sit too long, you may never see that effect, because you don't need to.

4. I'm still working on it. When I get it to where I think I'm doing as well as I can with LODO, I'm going to brew a LODO batch and a non-LODO batch and see if there's a real discernable difference.

5. I was at an off-flavor workshop last summer where a local professional brewer was there to provide us some real-world perspective...which he did. He tried my Czech Pilsner, which flavor just popped. His comment? Yeah, but is it worth it commercially? From his perspective, probably not.

I've had a couple people just rave about it, including a friend who has a palate I can only dream about. Know what? I don't care for it that much, but the flavors do pop.

Which leads me to this:

6. Some people might appreciate the more muted flavors of non-LODO brewing, and there's some evidence people may prefer beer that to at least some extent is oxidized. Which leads me to this:

7. People like what they like.

**************************

I agree, some of the LODO stuff seems almost cult-like. Sometimes the explanations are so curt as to make it seem as if the author isn't really interested. The whole area could benefit from a deeper explanation as to WHY some things are done. For instance, why should I add Campden Tablets to the strike water AFTER it's been pre-boiled and cooled to strike temps instead of before? That's the wisdom, but what would be helpful is the WHY.

BTW, I figured out the why on my own: the campden tablets are oxygen scavengers, and you don't want to use that up on water whose deoxygenation will be accomplished by preboiling. Add them to the deoxygenated strike water just before it goes into the mash. Makes sense to me, but it would have been nice to have this explained up front. The lack of such explanations can make it appear as if someone must be a member of the cult before one is admitted to the inner sanctum.

I have more, but I have other things to do right now...maybe later.

 

[brewbama]

I’ve been to Germany. In fact, lived there. That’s why I Homebrew now — the great beers. I’ve been to Oktoberfest and many other fests numerous times. If you think Bitburger, or the beers served at any fest is the example beer, I respectfully disagree. They are not the best beers in Germany IMO. If smelling piss and seeing drunken fools lying on a hillside so blitzed they piss themselves is your idea of fun — Oktoberfest is the place for you. I’ve said this before: I recommend using different examples of German beer to influence people. If Bitburger is what you are shooting for (Bitte ein Bit) — as I said in Germany: Nein danke.

 

[Big Monk]

I’ve been to Germany. In fact, lived there. That’s why I Homebrew now — the great beers. I’ve been to Oktoberfest and many other fests numerous times. If you think Bitburger, or the beers served at any fest is the example beer, I respectfully disagree. They are not the best beers in Germany IMO. If smelling piss and seeing drunken fools lying on a hillside so blitzed they piss themselves is your idea of fun — Oktoberfest is the place for you. I’ve said this before: I recommend using different examples of German beer to influence people. If Bitburger is what you are shooting for (Bitte ein Bit) — as I said in Germany: Nein danke.

We frequently mention Bit because it can be had frequently in the states very fresh.

I’ve seen you throw this example around on multiple forums. It’s a bit of misdirection in my opinion.

We also love Weihenstpehaner, Ayinger, Paulaner, Augustiner, Andechs, etc. certainly you don’t think those beers are bad as well?