A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

[ajdelange]

Some simple experimentation with carboxylic acids you can buy at the LHBS (lactic, citric, tartaric, malic) and a pH meter will convince you pretty quickly that how tart something tastes is more a function of which acid is involved than the pH. Yes a lactic acid solution at pH 4 tastes more sour than one at 4.5 but a malic acid solution at pH 4 tastes much more sour than a lactic acid solution at pH 4. Thus I am suggesting that rather than blame the tart taste (which is an important part of the wheat beer profile) on the pH you might want to look at a different yeast strain in the hopes of finding one that produces a different acid spectrum and perhaps at the same time a higher finished pH. IMO you can't beat the Weihenstephan strain (Wyeast 3068 or White Labs equivalent).

Yeast have a preferred range of pH and will try to set their environment to that pH. If you add additional alkali to their wort they will just have to work harder to achieve the pH they want. This takes energy away from the production of alcohol, esters and phenolics and it has been noted that the yeast regulate pH pretty well irrespective of wort conditions. Thus I don't expect that buffering the wort is going to help much but this is based only on thinking about it a bit. I have never experimented with this.

Finally, lactate buffers well near the pK of lactic acid (3.86) so you could make a decent buffer out of a mix of lactic acid and lactate ion set for pH's up to about 4.86 (rule of thumb: pK ± 1.0).

 

[Bilsch]

AJ,

Thank you for your reply and the help.

I'm not sure if this thread is appropriate place for my question. If not please advise and I will select a better area. I was drawn here on the premise that the basic water primer breaks down, at least in my case, when using very low mineral content RO to brew Hefeweizen using traditional German yeasts. Just to add a bit about my system, I'm confident there isn't a house infection playing a part here since I'm very maticulous brewer with many years experience using quality equipment. But mostly because all of my other beers turn out perfect and true to style with the correct final pH.

Agreed about the different perceptions of various acids. However in this case I think it's more about the ph since I've tested a couple examples of Germany's finest and they are at or about pH 4.2 where as my efforts all are below 4. I have tried three different yeasts, wlp300 and wy3068 which are proported to be the same strain, wlp380 and wy3638 all resulting in overly tart finish. I have tried fermenting at temperatures ranging from 62 to 70 and that seems to have to effect on my particular problem.

Could the issue be my RO unit doing its job well and removing too many minerals? Has anyone tried brewing with RO with TDS of 1 or less?

Just wanted to get opinions from this learned body before wasting more grain and time. I suppose my next series of tests should be using Kai's method of dissolving CaCO3 with CO2 to increase the ph/carbonate content of my water then adjusting that back down with sauermalz creating more buffer in the process.

Thanks in advance for any enlightenment.

 

[ajdelange]

I'm not sure if this thread is appropriate place for my question. If not please advise and I will select a better area.

Well, no. This is pretty much for beginners seeking KISS solutions but as the discussion is underway already no point in moving it unless the administrators want to in which case they will.

I was drawn here on the premise that the basic water primer breaks down, at least in my case, when using very low mineral content RO to brew Hefeweizen using traditional German yeasts.

The Primer suggests what I would consider to be huge ion content but as it is aimed at the newbie trying to get an acceptable IPA it is as it is.

Just to add a bit about my system, I'm confident there isn't a house infection playing a part here since I'm very maticulous brewer with many years experience using quality equipment. But mostly because all of my other beers turn out perfect and true to style with the correct final pH.

Even the most meticulous of us get hit occasionally but, as you say, the fact that your other beers are OK and it is only the wheats that are too tart it probably isn't infection. It is something about wheat beers. They are associated with tart taste and low pH and perhaps this is just something you don't like. How do your beers compare to commercial examples? What do you friends think?

Agreed about the different perceptions of various acids. However in this case I think it's more about the ph since I've tested a couple examples of Germany's finest and they are at or about pH 4.2 where as my efforts all are below 4.

I used to brew wheat beer a lot and the finished pH's have always come in around 4 but never under (that I can recall and I don't have access to my notes over the summer).

I have tried three different yeasts, wlp300 and wy3068 which are proported to be the same strain,

That's the Weihenstephan which I always used.

wlp380 and wy3638 all resulting in overly tart finish.

Those are similar. I got low pH's with them but never under 4 and never found the beer too tart though it was definitely tart which, as I said in the previous post, is one of the reasons wheat beers are so popular in summer. I'm getting suspicious that you just don't like tart which is why I'm asking about what other people think of these beers.

An experiment you could try would be to take a sample of beer, measure the pH, add a few drops of sodium bicarbonate solution to get the pH to 4.2 and taste (before and after). This would give you information as to whether just raising the pH of the finished beer would solve the problem.

I have tried fermenting at temperatures ranging from 62 to 70 and that seems to have to effect on my particular problem.

Assume that's a typo and you mean it has no effect.

Could the issue be my RO unit doing its job well and removing too many minerals? Has anyone tried brewing with RO with TDS of 1 or less?

Yes and it doesn't make very good beer but that's not because pH goes too low. As noted in the earlier post the yeast are going to put the pH where they want it pretty much in spite of anything you do before fermentation.

Just wanted to get opinions from this learned body before wasting more grain and time. I suppose my next series of tests should be using Kai's method of dissolving CaCO3 with CO2 to increase the ph/carbonate content of my water then adjusting that back down with sauermalz creating more buffer in the process.

The easiest way to get alkalinity into your mash water is to add sodium bicarbonate but you don't want to do that as it will result in high mash pH which will just muddle the beer's flavors. And you don't want to add alkalinity to the kettle wort because that will interfere with fermentation and probably won't have the desired effect. The thing to buffer is the beer. This can be done with sodium bicarbonate or kalkwasser. Best to do this, as suggested above, on an experimental basis to see if it really does what you want.

 

[Bilsch]

Thanks for the clarity on the intended target of the primer system. There are more then a couple people in this country that prefer IPA's however I'm not one of them. Heresy to utter such words round these parts I know but my preference is malty or malt forward beers. I'm also quite fond of sour styles such as lambics, gueze and Berliner weisse.

Compared to say Weihenstephaner or Paulaner weisse, what I've been making turns out more tart then the typical German Hefeweizen but not so much as a Berliner. It's just not the taste I'm looking for fostered by fond drinking memories of Munich and Freising. It's maybe comparable to Schneider tap 11 but the acidity is not reminiscent of lactic notes which I find more palatable then to what ever this acidity is. Seems to me to be yeast created and interestingly happens fast. I had one test batch which I adjusted up to pH 5.9 after mashing with CaOH, pitched in the evening and by morning the yeast managed to bring the pH down to 4.9. This is when the idea of too little buffering capacity popped into my head. Didn't realize yeast humping could generate so many protons so fast especially at the lower temps (62) I typically ferment at.

As you suggested I have done a little testing on the taste of my finished weizen using CaOH, Na bicarb and CaCO3 in small amounts. The CaCO3 had little effect on the Ph compared to the sodium and CaOH. The Hydroxide improved the taste in amount ~0.028gm in 500ml beer. Much above that level the taste became insipid and muddy. The sodium bicarbonate was salty and harsh to my taste in any amount meaningful enough to move the pH.

Ok where to go from here? I guess tomorrow it's kalkwasser to 180ppm Ca then bring that back down with ~2-3% sauermalz (creating the lactates and phosphates I'm hoping will slow the yeasts pH frenzy) and fine tune the mash to 5.4 ish with phosphoric or lactic and hope for the best!

Thanks again for taking the time to so thoughtfully reply to my cry for help.

 

[ajdelange]

I think you will find yourself spinning your wheels in continuing to pursue this approach. There is just no reason you shouldn't be able to brew a tasty (but tart) weizen at home using water with 0 alkalinity e.g. RO with nothing but a little calcium chloride in it using the 3068 strain and a grist of ~60% wheat and 40% base barley malt. The beer should be as good or better than what you get in Germany (yes, I have been given wheat beers in Germany that were pretty bad but it was rare). I say this with confidence because I have done it many times and gotten several ribbons for them. The pH should be in the low 4's. The fact that this is not happening says that there is something wrong and you need to find out what that is in order to be able to rectify the problem. It's not the water. These beers are brewed all over Germany and Austria using widely disparate waters.

The one thing we haven't talked about is the pH measurement. Is the meter stable (see https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256 for how to do a meter stability check)? Are the buffers you are using fresh? Is the junction free flowing? Are the samples adequately degassed?

 

[Bilsch]

I came for help and so must consider all possibilities.
I have two meters, an Oakton phtestr30 and 3+ as well as ~5 month old Oakton 3 buffer set. No idea about the stability but will read the instructions in the link.

There definitely is a lot of wheel spinning with 12 decidedly not delicious weizens done with RO plus 3 grams CaCl*2h2o in the past 5 months. Still why do my Alts, Kolsch, Helles, Munich lagers etc made with the same water turn out so great and the wheats comparatively crap. The only other difference would be I double decoct the wheats and step mash the others.

 

[ajdelange]

Still why do my Alts, Kolsch, Helles, Munich lagers etc made with the same water turn out so great and the wheats comparatively crap.

That is the mystery and also pretty solid proof that the problem isn't the water.

I came for help and so must consider all possibilities.

The pH meter thing was grasping at straws yet sometimes I get well into a discussion like this only to find out that the guy is using pH strips.

The only other difference would be I double decoct the wheats and step mash the others.

From what I can tell I am doing (or used to when I brewed a lot of wheats - I seem to have lost my taste for them) exactly what you are doing, including similar CaCl2 additions to RO and double decoctions, and they were some of the best beers I ever made.

Another topic not previously discussed: they mature quickly and then decline quickly once past maturity. Six month old wheat beer just isn't very good no matter how carefully it has been protected from oxygen in the making and in storage.

 

[brew-bandit]

Hello,

So my next endeavor in brewing will be working this my water. I love this primer because of the KISS nature. I don't really want to turn into a chemist besides it seems tweaking the water chemistry could quickly get out of hand and potentially cause more harm than good.

I have yet to get the water report from my house but to start getting an understanding a pull the report from the water district so my questions are someone hypothetical to get a better understanding.

There are two water sources and the below table reflects the min/max and average values (ppm) across the two and the dilution factor. My concern would be how to I manage the Sulfate in this scenario? To match the KISS strategy target levels I should dilute 1:6. If I dilute 1:6 tap to RO it seems I should just use RO. Though a 1:2 ration would put it in in the 50 ppm range which would seem reasonable.

Chemical Target Min Measured Max Measured Average Dilution Required
Alkalinity (CaCO3) 35 92 98 95 2.7
Sulfate 20 120 160 140 7.0
Chloride 20 58 90 74 3.7
Sodium 20 54 80 67 3.4
Calcium 20 49 51 50 2.5
Magnesium 20 12 21 16.5 0.8


Thanks in advance.

 

[ajdelange]

There are two water sources and the below table reflects the min/max and average values (ppm) across the two and the dilution factor.

Don't understand the table. Min, max and average from which of the two sources? What is the dilution factor?

 

[brew-bandit]

Apologize for the lack of description.

My goal was to look for a process that would get me a correction that would work for either water source since I won't know what source I have when or how they are mixed etc. So I took the chloride values for each one and put the lower of the two in the min and the other in the max.

The average is the average of the min and max (min+max)/2.

Target is the number outlined in the original post i.e. Sodium = 20

and dilution is the average divided by the target. This tells me what ratio of RO to tap water I need to achieve the target for that one chemical/mineral.

So the average sulfate is 140 and that is roughly 7 times the amount of 20 so I would need a 6:1 RO:tap mix.

Based on my understanding and the KISS method originally outline I would be inclined to do a 3:1 RO:tap and continue with the baseline as directed

 

[ajdelange]

I was pretty sure it was something like that but wanted to be sure.

Cases like this one are a pretty compelling argument for going to full RO as not only does it eliminate the ions but in so doing also the variations in their concentrations. Also your comment about going to full RO if you calculated that you need 6:1 or more dilution makes good sense.

Your calculations seem fine.

 

[brew-bandit]

Thanks for reviewing and the input. I am going to get my water sampled shortly here and see what I am really up against. Maybe do a second sample in 6 months to see if they are tweaking the supply.

Until then, what if anything can I do about the super high sulfate? All my brews to date have had a harsh bitterness even when I don't expect them to. But I also have no problem getting malty, sweet and medium to full body beers. Just always have a sharp bite even with low AA hops and a relaxed hop schedule. Maybe water? I will see if I can adjust with toning down the bittering hops.

One other question. When you state adding 2% saurmalz to the grist is that on top of the grain bill or remove 2% of the grain and replace with the saurmalz?

Thanks again for you help.

 

[gromitdj]

I am not A.J. and would never claim to be anywhere near as knowledgeable. However, my advice would be to go with straight R.O. water and not look back. You will not have to worry about seasonal changes or dilution factors.

I have done so following the advice of this thread and my beers have gotten significantly better since doing so.

 

[ajdelange]

Until then, what if anything can I do about the super high sulfate? All my brews to date have had a harsh bitterness even when I don't expect them to. But I also have no problem getting malty, sweet and medium to full body beers. Just always have a sharp bite even with low AA hops and a relaxed hop schedule. Maybe water? I will see if I can adjust with toning down the bittering hops.

That's certainly one approach. Another is to use cultivars with a 'fine' bitterness such as Saaz. There isn't much you can do about sulfate except dilute it out with low sulfate water or remove it with RO, ion exchange or distillation (all of which are really equivalent to diluting it away with low sulfate water).

One other question. When you state adding 2% saurmalz to the grist is that on top of the grain bill or remove 2% of the grain and replace with the saurmalz?

Given the small amount it doesn't much matter. If you have 100 lbs of grist and add 2 lbs sauermalz the percentage is 2/102 = 1.96 %. Which is very close to the exactly 2 % you'd get if you added 2 lbs to 98 lbs. My approach with 100 lbs other grains is to add 2/0.98 = 2.04 lbs. I don't want to toss the extract that comes from the 2 lbs base grist I'd have to remove.

 

[brew-bandit]

Thanks for the inputs A.J.

I am getting my water tested to see what comes out of the tap. Until then I will also look at my recipes to see what can be worked there.

 

[roncruiser]

Just completed a heady topper clone using all distilled water. Added a teaspoon of calcium chloride to the mash. I contemplated adding a teaspoon of gypsum, but told myself "one step at a time".

 

[mabrungard]

Just completed a heady topper clone using all distilled water. Added a teaspoon of calcium chloride to the mash. I contemplated adding a teaspoon of gypsum, but told myself "one step at a time".

Too bad you went in that direction for that beer style. I don't expect that you will find it anything like a Heady. The good thing is that you can add gypsum to the glass to assess if you would prefer more sulfate. I expect that you will find that it will liven the hop character when you conduct that test. Do take the time to calculate how much gypsum you should add in a glass to bring the sulfate level to increments of 100, 200, and 300 ppm so that you avoid overdosing the gypsum. Overdosing will make the assessment useless.

 

[ajdelange]

Not too bad at all. Very prudent indeed. Even if you find you eventually like a lot more sulfate it is best to take the conservative approach in case you don't.

 

[SC_Ryan]

I do a IIPA that has zero sulphate in it and people absolutely love it. Bursting hop aroma and flavor but the lack sulphates give it a really nice balance. It's incredibly drinkable for a 9% 100 IBU beer.

 

[afr0byte]

I do a IIPA that has zero sulphate in it and people absolutely love it.

Yeah, but it's supposed to be a
Heady clone...it definitely normally has a fair bit of sulfate.

 

[ajdelange]

Time to remind readers that there are different criteria for optimality. Brewing a beer that mimics another as closely as possible is but one of several with the other obvious one here being brewing the beer that one thinks tastes best. These might well result in very different approaches to the sulfate content of the mash water depending on one's personal tastes.

 

[roncruiser]

One step at a time. I admit it may not be cloned but it's gonna be a very good beer. In these clone recipe threads almost no one talks about adding minerals or salts to get the recipe "cloned". Most just say it's cloned or not cloned. Sometimes not even that. Some will say it's a very good beer. I'm hoping for a very good beer. With a clone happening in the future. I started with a known water base. Distilled water. I added 1 tsp calcium chloride during the mash. During tasting I'll try different levels of sulphate to dial it in. One step at a time. I believe I'm hiking the right path.

Thanks to this thread and ajdelange!

 

[roncruiser]

Time to remind readers that there are different criteria for optimality. Brewing a beer that mimics another as closely as possible is but one of several with the other obvious one here being brewing the beer that one thinks tastes best. These might well result in very different approaches to the sulfate content of the mash water depending on one's personal tastes.

Since I'm using distilled water to create my baseline, are you still recommending 3% saurmalz to the grist for an IPA? Can I add that in some other way? I overlooked that in your initial post. Thanks...

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, an IPA will require acid in some form unless an great deal of dark crystal is used in which case it wouldn't be very pale. The acid can be added in other forms. Sulfuric and hydrochloric are traditional in British brewing but hard to obtain in food grade by home brewers in the US. An addition of 3% sauermalz is equivalent, approximately, to 0.38 mL 88% lactic acid per pound of grist or 4.1 mL of 10% phosphoric acid per pound of grist.

 

[CGish]

For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

For the sake of this primer, at what point is a malt considered roasted? 25 SRM? 50 SRM? Higher? Lower? I think AJDeLange said once the grist percentage of roasted malt went above 10-20%, the acid malt is no longer needed. If that is the case, when is a malt considered roasted?

Also, if the roasted malt is only 10%, then is some acid malt (1% or so) a good idea?

Thank You,
Cody

 

[Culbetron]

I think, by roasted malts used for porters and stouts, we are usually talking about chocolate malt, black malt, and roasted barley.

If you are making something with 10% roasted malt, then you can (almost certainly) skip the acid. I think AJ said in previous posts that you might not need to add any alkalinity until you get over the 20% roasted grain range.

He also said to people asking similar questions:
1) A Ph meter is especially important when making dark beers
2) Make a mini-mash ahead of time so you know what adjustments you will need to make to the Ph.

 

[CGish]

He also said to people asking similar questions:
1) A Ph meter is especially important when making dark beers
2) Make a mini-mash ahead of time so you know what adjustments you will need to make to the Ph.

I know a PH meter would answer a lot of questions, but there is also a limit to how much I can spend in any given time frame. This primer has helped me a lot, and I am starting to get the most tenuous of grasps on water and additions. This tiny bit of understanding is also creating questions. One of these years, I will fit a PH meter into my budget. For now, I am trying to guess as accurately as possible.

Thank You,
Cody

 

[ajdelange]

The acid in a kg of most black, patent, roast, carafa etc. style malts are, WRT pH 5.5, is equivalent to 2.5 - 3 mL hardware store hydrochloric acid but crystal malts darker than about 50L are equally so. Kai Troester measured 120L as equivalent to 4 mL.

 

[MagicMatt]

Hi all. In using this primer and my Ward Labs report, I'm wondering if the numbers that Ward provides are all "ppm" as indicated on the report, or if it is mg/L? I've been using these numbers for a few batches and after revisiting this Primer to see where I can go next for improvements, I noticed that in the Primer AJ specifies that:

...alkalinity less than 35 (ppm as CaCO3 – all other numbers to follow mg/L), sulfate less than 20 (as sulfate – Ward Labs reports as sulfur so multiply the SO4-S number by 3 to get as sulfate), chloride less than 20, sodium less than 20, calcium less than 20 and magnesium less than 20.

My Ward Labs report has a "ppm" header on the column with the numbers, but I've been using the numbers to get in line with what AJ suggests in terms of mg/L. Does this mean that I will need to actually convert these ppm values to mg/L first to plug into one of the mash water calculators? For instance, on the BrewersFriend calculator, should I be setting these as mg/L or ppm (my fear is that I was setting them to mg/L, which seems to be incorrect). Here's the report if it's any help (sorry, no scanner at the moment)..... Thanks!

 

[TobyG]

My Ward Labs report has a "ppm" header on the column with the numbers, but I've been using the numbers to get in line with what AJ suggests in terms of mg/L. Does this mean that I will need to actually convert these ppm values to mg/L first to plug into one of the mash water calculators? For instance, on the BrewersFriend calculator, should I be setting these as mg/L or ppm (my fear is that I was setting them to mg/L, which seems to be incorrect). Here's the report if it's any help (sorry, no scanner at the moment)..... Thanks!

There's effectively no difference. 1 mg = 1/1,000,000 of a kg (which equals 1L of water). Oh, and now you've reminded me that I need to swing by and pick up some Spalt hops.

 

[roncruiser]

Yes, an IPA will require acid in some form unless an great deal of dark crystal is used in which case it wouldn't be very pale. The acid can be added in other forms. Sulfuric and hydrochloric are traditional in British brewing but hard to obtain in food grade by home brewers in the US. An addition of 3% sauermalz is equivalent, approximately, to 0.38 mL 88% lactic acid per pound of grist or 4.1 mL of 10% phosphoric acid per pound of grist.

Would the 3% be as part of the total amount, or 3% on top of the total amount. In other words... 97% + 3%, or 100% + 3%

Thanks again. It been a very helpful thread.

 

[ajdelange]

3% is small enough that it doesn't make much difference.
3/103 = 2.91%
3/100 = 3.00%

 

[roncruiser]

3% is small enough that it doesn't make much difference.
3/103 = 2.91%
3/100 = 3.00%

Understood, but what was your intention

 

[TechyDork]

Understood, but what was your intention

It aint rocket surgery, .09% is nothing. Your talking a fraction of an ounce of grain either way.

20lb grain bill

3% = .6 lbs (9.6 oz) acid malt
2.91% = .582 lbs (9.312 oz) acid malt

 

[roncruiser]

It aint rocket surgery, .09% is nothing. Your talking a fraction of an ounce of grain either way.

20lb grain bill

3% = .6 lbs (9.6 oz) acid malt
2.91% = .582 lbs (9.312 oz) acid malt

What's rocket surgery? Haha.

I said I understood. Nothing wrong with understanding the intent.

 

[roncruiser]

What I asked was different. Based on you 20 pound example:
19.4lbs +. 6lbs
or
20 pounds +. 6 lbs.

.6lbs = 9.6 ounces

 

[MagicMatt]

I won't speak for AJ but I've always taken it as 3% additional. Your grain bill as-is would be 100%, and the 3% is additional would bring it to 103% of original. Thus, if you add it to a program like BeerSmith, the actual percentage of the acid malt once added would be 2.91%.

Though I agree that on a such a small scale it shouldn't matter.

 

[MagicMatt]

Delete, I must be drunk.

 

[jmadway]

I am not A.J. and would never claim to be anywhere near as knowledgeable. However, my advice would be to go with straight R.O. water and not look back. You will not have to worry about seasonal changes or dilution factors.

I have done so following the advice of this thread and my beers have gotten significantly better since doing so.

Agreed. I am now about 5 brews in to my switch to RO. I've kept the additions really simple and have eliminated the guess work from the daunting question of "what is really in my water?" While I'm not sure of the actual impact on my beer, everything I've brewed with RO has turned out really well and it certainly is an easy process. Much simpler than building up from my tap water.

 

[TechyDork]

What's rocket surgery? Haha.

I said I understood. Nothing wrong with understanding the intent.

sorry i was just kidding. Guess i never really thought too much about it. I use BeerSmith and I just add enough into the recipe for it to be 3% of the total grain bill.