Is my tap water usesless for brewing?

[Newbibrewbi]

Hi all!

This is one of my (if not THE) first posts and if there is a good answer in some of the other threads I apologise but I haven't found a clear answer.

So I moved to a house with very hard water. It tastes good but I get a taste in the brews that's not quite pleasant. It's not awful, it's just not as good as my beer was as when using the softer municipal water. I've also tried brewing with water from a neighbour.
I'll put both water reports at the end of the post.

Should I just stick to RO-filtering all water before brewing or is there an easier fix?
I've tried brewing a lager, a cream ale, a belgian trappist style beer and an english bitter with the water. The same "slightly off" taste is present to a larger or lesser degree in all of them.

I might be doing something else wrong since my efficiency is suffering as well but I haven't been able to narrow it down.

My water, as it shows in Beersmith 3
Ca 53
Mg 7,5
Na 23
SO4 11
Cl 5,8
HCO3 220
Alkalinity 180 ppm as CaCO3
Effective Hardness 42 ppm as CaCO3
Residual Alkalinity 138 ppm as CaCO3
Sulfite/Chloride ratio 1,9
Sulfate/chloride Balance Slightly bitter

Neighbour's water as it shows in Beersmith 3
Ca 47
Mg 6,5
Na 13
SO4 29
Cl 3,8
HCO3 150
Alkalinity 123 ppm as CaCO3
Effective Hardness 37 ppm as CaCO3
Residual Alkalinity 86 ppm as CaCO3
Sulfite/Chloride ratio 7,6
Sulfate/chloride Balance Very bitter


Any help or input is greatly appreciated, cheers!

Newbi

 

[VikeMan]

Please describe the unpleasant taste, i.e. what does it taste like?

 

[hottpeper13]

It's very possible that your pH is high and pulling unwanted stuff from the hops. Would also explain the loss in efficiency.

 

[day_trippr]

Is the water from a municipal supply or a well? If the former, could a more complete water assay be obtained from the municipality? If the latter, do you have a more complete assay? I'm thinking specifically of character modifiers like iron or manganese, for example...

Cheers!

 

[AlexKay]

Is the water from a municipal supply or a well? If the former, could a more complete water assay be obtained from the municipality? If the latter, do you have a more complete assay? I'm thinking specifically of character modifiers like iron or manganese, for example...

Cheers!

If his water isn't the same as his neighbor's, I'm guessing this is from a well. Iron or the like would certainly provide an explanation.

OP:

What part of what country are you living in?

Can you be more descriptive about the way in which the beer is slightly off? (If you can't, consider enlisting some friends as tasters, or taking some beer to a local store or club or something.)

Are you chlorinating your water, and are you then removing the chlorine before brewing?

 

[Newbibrewbi]

Hi everyone, thanks for your replies!

Sadly I can't describe the taste and the friends I've asked have concluded more or less "something is off with this beer." I've even shown my girlfriend the list of off-flavours in hope her palate is more sensitive than mine but she just refers to it as "that taste I don't like in your beer".

Maybe I'll have to find a competition to enter in.

I don't have access to the neighbour's water report and we don't live super close to one another so I am fairly certain our water come from different sources.

I do indeed have my own well, the water is not chlorinated. The full water report is as follows (Translated by me from Swedish, so if anything is off, let me know):

cultivated microorganisms. 22°C 3d 10 cfu/ml

E.coli <1 MPN/100ml

Coliform bacteria 37°C <1 MPN/100ml

Turbidity FNU 0.44 ±0.12 FNU

mod colour <5 ±2 mg/l Pt

Conductivity 25°C 40.5 ±4.05 mS/m

pH at 20°C 7.8 ±0.2

Alkalinity, HCO3 220 ±33 mg/l

Chemical oxygen usage. COD-Mn 1.2 ±0.30 mg/l

Ammonium nitrogen, NH4-N <0.01 ±0.005 mg/l

NH4 <0.02 ±0.01 mg/l

Nitrate nitrogen, NO3-N <0.05 ±0.045 mg/l

<0.3 mg/l

D Nitrite nitrogen, NO2-N <0.001 ±0.0009 mg/l

calculated Nitrite, NO2 <0.004 ±0.003 mg/l

phosphate phosphorus, PO4-P 0.016 ±0.005 mg/l

calculated phosphate, PO4 0.05 ±0.01 mg/l

Fluoride, F 0.62 ±0.10 mg/l

chloride, Cl 5.8 ±0.90 mg/l

Sulphate, SO4 11 ±1.7 mg/l

Iron, Fe <0.05 ±0.01 mg/l

Calcium, Ca 53 ±7.9 mg/l

Calium, K 2 ±0.3 mg/l

Copper, Cu <0.02 ±0.01 mg/l

Magnesium, Mg 7.5 ±1.1 mg/l

Mangane, Mn 0.03 ±0.005 mg/l

Natrium, Na 23 ±3.5 mg/l

Calculated hardness in German degrees 9.1 ±1.4 °dH

Aluminium, Al <1 ±0.40 μg/l

Antimony, Sb <0.1 ±0.10 μg/l

Arsenic, As 0.36 ±0.054 μg/l

Lead, Pb 0.25 ±0.038 μg/l

Cadmium, Cd <0.01 ±0.003 μg/l

Chrome, Cr 0.059 ±0.015 μg/l

Nickel, Ni 0.28 ±0.042 μg/l

Selen, Se <1 ±0.40 μg/l

Uran, U 3.3 ±0.49 μg/l

LSC Radon 15.7 ±5.00 Bq/l

 

[Bobby_M]

Hi all!

This is one of my (if not THE) first posts and if there is a good answer in some of the other threads I apologise but I haven't found a clear answer.

So I moved to a house with very hard water. It tastes good but I get a taste in the brews that's not quite pleasant. It's not awful, it's just not as good as my beer was as when using the softer municipal water. I've also tried brewing with water from a neighbour.
I'll put both water reports at the end of the post.

Should I just stick to RO-filtering all water before brewing or is there an easier fix?
I've tried brewing a lager, a cream ale, a belgian trappist style beer and an english bitter with the water. The same "slightly off" taste is present to a larger or lesser degree in all of them.

I might be doing something else wrong since my efficiency is suffering as well but I haven't been able to narrow it down.

My water, as it shows in Beersmith 3
Ca 53
Mg 7,5
Na 23
SO4 11
Cl 5,8
HCO3 220
Alkalinity 180 ppm as CaCO3
Effective Hardness 42 ppm as CaCO3
Residual Alkalinity 138 ppm as CaCO3
Sulfite/Chloride ratio 1,9
Sulfate/chloride Balance Slightly bitter

Neighbour's water as it shows in Beersmith 3
Ca 47
Mg 6,5
Na 13
SO4 29
Cl 3,8
HCO3 150
Alkalinity 123 ppm as CaCO3
Effective Hardness 37 ppm as CaCO3
Residual Alkalinity 86 ppm as CaCO3
Sulfite/Chloride ratio 7,6
Sulfate/chloride Balance Very bitter


Any help or input is greatly appreciated, cheers!

Newbi

The problem is astringency due to a high mash pH. For a light Pilsner beer, your mash pH would be over 6

If we try an amber/light brown beer:

Now a very dark beer:

You can add lactic acid to the mash water but the amount you have to use is a bit high. Use software to figure out how much you'll need to get below 5.6

BrewFather is good for this.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Every 30 Liters of your water require 5.8 mL of 88% Lactic Acid. And in addition to this your grist (for a light colored ale or lager) likely needs about 3.5 mL of 88% Lactic Acid added to the mash.

Plus, if your water is chlorinated add 1/4 of a Campden tablet (crushed) to every 30 Liters..

 

[Newbibrewbi]

The problem is astringency due to a high mash pH. For a light Pilsner beer, your mash pH would be over 6
View attachment 828159



If we try an amber/light brown beer:



View attachment 828160


Now a very dark beer:

View attachment 828161

You can add lactic acid to the mash water but the amount you have to use is a bit high. Use software to figure out how much you'll need to get below 5.6

BrewFather is good for this.

I should have clarified but I do acidify.
Since the amount of acid is a bit high I use phosphorus acid, (beersmith 3 helps with the calculation)
and then I do a check with a ph meter roughly 10 minutes after mash in. Usually the ph is in the ballpark of 5,2-5,5 but it’s never right on the money.

I also add water salts sometimes, usually calcium chloride.

If Brewfather is bang on with the prediction I might try that instead of BS 3. Thanks.

 

[jdauria]

I should have clarified but I do acidify.
Since the amount of acid is a bit high I use phosphorus acid, (beersmith 3 helps with the calculation)
and then I do a check with a ph meter roughly 10 minutes after mash in. Usually the ph is in the ballpark of 5,2-5,5 but it’s never right on the money.

I also add water salts sometimes, usually calcium chloride.

If Brewfather is bang on with the prediction I might try that instead of BS 3. Thanks.

If you are making a hop forward beer, try adding gypsum instead of calcium chloride. While not the only driving force behind a beer, the sulfate to chloride ratio is a big factor in building a flavor profile in beer. Right now your water as is, is low in both, which is fine for say lagers but not for hoppy ales or for malty ales. Check this simple guide out Sulfate to Chloride ratio

Personally I have found that BS3 water tool is not the greatest. It gets you in the ballpark, but their acid addition calculator seems off to me. I prefer the Bru'n Water spreadsheet, which has a free version and a paid supporter's version.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Bunk!

 

[IslandLizard]

Should I just stick to RO-filtering all water before brewing or is there an easier fix?

If you already have an RO system, it's probably the easiest and most predictable way to obtain soft brewing (and drinking) water.

It should also help in removing more of the other residual minerals.

 

[AlexKay]

I don’t see any obvious problems in your water report. Hardness is moderate, but if you’re checking mash pH and it’s good, you should be fine on that front. Do things in fact get better if you use RO?

 

[Bobby_M]

I don’t see any obvious problems in your water report. Hardness is moderate, but if you’re checking mash pH and it’s good, you should be fine on that front. Do things in fact get better if you use RO?

It's possible there are other trace metals and minerals in the water that the RO would reject such as Iron, but I would only suspect that if the off flavor was distinctly metallic.

Based on how much acid would need to be added here, I'm slightly suspect the flavor is above threshold. It's nice starting with RO since the amount of acid needed is reduced.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Personally I have found that BS3 water tool is not the greatest. It gets you in the ballpark, but their acid addition calculator seems off to me. I prefer the Bru'n Water spreadsheet, which has a free version and a paid supporter's version.

Hmmm....in one of the recent BeerSmith updates (maybe 3.1? it was over a year ago) they added an updated MPH model and also added "BW Model" which I believe is the Bru'n Water model. I have personally found that I get better results with the updated MPH model, so that is what I use. It could be that certain models are better for different water profiles or brewing systems. I used to use Bru'n Water (the paid version) but just use BeerSmith these days.

 

[jdauria]

Hmmm....in one of the recent BeerSmith updates (maybe 3.1? it was over a year ago) they added an updated MPH model and also added "BW Model" which I believe is the Bru'n Water model. I have personally found that I get better results with the updated MPH model, so that is what I use. It could be that certain models are better for different water profiles or brewing systems. I used to use Bru'n Water (the paid version) but just use BeerSmith these days.

Yeah, it definitely got better with 3.1 and the ability to pick MPH model or Bru'N Water model...but I still feel acid numbers are off. Also the MpH model is based MpH v3 and MpH v4.2 came out in 2020 and completely reworks the model they use for pH calculation. I reached out to see if BS was going to update the software with the new model, but the answer was not until it's fully vetted. Last year I started playing with all the various water calculators to see where they came out per recipe. For example, for a Helles last year, BS using MpH 3 model called for 2 ml of lactic, the new MpH4.2 spreadsheet had a lower pH and needed no lactic addition, Bru'n Water said only 0.64 ml of lactic. I started using an average of all 3 of these, plus Mash Made Easy for my lactic additions. Did I always hit mash pH exactly, no, but it was always within a couple tenths. Since then, I have gone back to using Bru'n Water but whatever it tells me for lactic addition, I increase it by 50%.

 

[Newbibrewbi]

So I'm trying to build a profile from RO water, after additions it will be:
Calcium: 78,9 Magnesium 12,9, Sodium 35,4, Sulfate 94,9, Chloride 119,2, Bicarbonate 73,3.
I'll make a pils but I guess the first test will be to see if my efficiency improves. In a few weeks I'll know if "that taste" is gone as well.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

So I'm trying to build a profile from RO water, after additions it will be:
Calcium: 78,9 Magnesium 12,9, Sodium 35,4, Sulfate 94,9, Chloride 119,2, Bicarbonate 73,3.
I'll make a pils but I guess the first test will be to see if my efficiency improves. In a few weeks I'll know if "that taste" is gone as well.

This combo exhibits perfect mEq/L Cation:Anion balance.

 

[IslandLizard]

I guess the first test will be to see if my efficiency improves

Although mineral composition of your brewing water influences the mash chemistry, proper milling (coarseness vs. fineness) of the grist, depending on your mash system/method, can have an even larger effect on mash progression and extract efficiency.

Most run of the mill (pun intended) crushes by the large outfits (MoreBeer, NB, etc.) as well as many LHBS is fairly coarse. Smaller kernels (e.g., wheat, rye, oats, etc.) not getting enough crush to open the hulls and/or break up the endosperm.

 

[marc1]

So I'm trying to build a profile from RO water, after additions it will be:
Calcium: 78,9 Magnesium 12,9, Sodium 35,4, Sulfate 94,9, Chloride 119,2, Bicarbonate 73,3.
I'll make a pils but I guess the first test will be to see if my efficiency improves. In a few weeks I'll know if "that taste" is gone as well.

If you are building from RO, why are you adding bicarbonate? Is it for a very dark beer?
Generally you would only add bicarbonate if your mash pH was too low.

 

[Newbibrewbi]

If you are building from RO, why are you adding bicarbonate? Is it for a very dark beer?
Generally you would only add bicarbonate if your mash pH was too low.

Honestly I just searched for a good water profile for a pilsner and I picked this up from Lindh's blog.
I'm not using any dark malts.

This combo exhibits perfect mEq/L Cation:Anion balance.

I've skimmed through Palmer's "water" but I'm still not sure what I should think about in regards to Anions.

Although mineral composition of your brewing water influences the mash chemistry, proper milling (coarseness vs. fineness) of the grist, depending on your mash system/method, can have an even larger effect on mash progression and extract efficiency.

Most run of the mill (pun intended) crushes by the large outfits (MoreBeer, NB, etc.) as well as many LHBS is fairly coarse. Smaller kernels (e.g., wheat, rye, oats, etc.) not getting enough crush to open the hulls and/or break up the endosperm.

I've experimented a bit with my system (BM20) and unless I crush coarsly I get wort fountains. Still haven't managed to solve that problem.
I had less problems even with a smaller crush with my old Bulldog mill compared to my present mattmill.

I've been brewing for a bit but before I moved the tap water was reasonably useable and I didn't think too much about the profile.

If anyone feels like suggesting a water profile that's better suited for a light lager/Pils then I would be delighted to hear it.
Thank you all for engaging.

 

[marc1]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/
Or, starting from RO, some calcium chloride and a little optional gypsum, with acid to get the pH in the ballpark if needed.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Honestly I just searched for a good water profile for a pilsner and I picked this up from Lindh's blog.

Bicarbonate can be a confusing topic. Generally, all target water profiles will have a bicarbonate value, but mostly because natural water will have some bicarbonate and including a bicarbonate value in a water profile helps to balance out the anions and cations. I have heard John Palmer and Martin Brungard ( @mabrungard) say that bicarbonate levels themselves are not a target. Controlling mash pH is the goal, and bicarbonate is one of the main levers driving pH.

I brew starting with my tap water. I only add bicarbonate (usually Balking Soda/Sodium Bicarbonate) if I need to raise the pH. For me this is only for dark beers with 15% or more dark and crystal malts. If starting with RO water (which has very little natural buffering power) you may need to add bicarbonate for amber colored beers. For light colored beers, I need to add acid to lower my pH.