Reality check on Water Chemistry

[Zippy123]

There is so much information on water chemistry that I am almost reluctant to ask these questions. I am a technically-minded person but am not a chemist so I appreciate your patience.

Here is where I am with the hobby, and where I am trying to go. I am currently using the BIAB method and have optimized my setup to produce about 75% kettle efficiency. I produce a handful of beer styles that I enjoy. I have family members who enjoy my beer depending on the style and their palate. I would like to improve the taste of my beer to get from "yeah this is good" to "wow this is spectacular". I have cold-crashed and gelatin-fined the last few batches and this has improved the clarity of my beers but of course those processes do not really affect flavor (except perhaps perceived flavor, which is a different topic).

I am on city water and I have never liked its taste. The fridge filter makes it drinkable for me, but even that filtered water is not great. This leads me to believe my first step at improving the flavor of my brews would be improve the water. I could use Campden for the chlorine smell and then other adjuncts to balance the salts, but this seems like putting lipstick on a pig. I am thinking, garbage-in-garbage-out. I am not interested in the time or expense or maintenance of an RO system, or the cost and time needed to distill my own water. I can purchase distilled water for just under a buck a gallon and since I need less than 8 gallons, I figure this might be a well spent 8 bucks per batch.

I use BrewersFriend and have been experimenting with creating a "balanced profile" (using their definition of balanced) from DW. I used a "test" grist bill with 9 lbs brewers 2-row and 1 lb crystal 20L and 7.2 gallons of water to be treated. I was surprised by the adjuncts that seem to be needed to reach the balanced profile. It's just under 13 grams total of adjuncts which to my non-chemist brain sounds like way too little to make much of a difference. See screenshot. (Since one of my other other hobbies is reloading ammunition, I can use my powder scale to very accurately measure the adjuncts.) Not shown is 4 ml of lactic acid to produce estimated mash ph close to 5.4.

Finally, to my questions.
1) Is it reasonable to assume that since I don't like the taste of my water that I would improve my beers by using DW and adjuncts to achieve a water profile to match the style of beer I am brewing?
2) Am I on target or way off with the listed adjuncts to get DW to the "balanced profile" on BrewersFriend? I am somewhat confused here because I have read so many posts that say, "I never use baking soda" but I see no other reasonable way to get the HCO3 number even close.
3) Are the profiles on BrewersFriend reasonable? (I think I would only used Balanced, Light colored and hoppy, Pilsner, and Altbier)
4) If those profiles are not reasonable, what resource is available for reasonable profiles?
5) Within a profile, is there an adjunct or a ratio that is more important than the others? (either most important in producing a good beer or most likely to ruin a batch)
6) Is there something am I missing?

Thanks in advance.

 

[hotbeer]

I can purchase distilled water for just under a buck a gallon

Why not just get some bottled water that is essentially RO or even distilled or heavily filtered water with some of the chemicals added back to make it taste better. In gallon sizes, they are usually less expensive than water labeled as distilled around here.

You can find the analysis for many of them if you read the side panel on them and go to the website they list. Some brands have multiple sources depending on where they are distributed to for sale. So pay attention to which water source your water came from.

The water I use is adjusted to taste better then just pure water. And with no adjustment by me, it works very well for just the light pale ales and other IPA's I do. However when I made a few brews of a stout with it, they weren't so great. So whenever I brew stouts again, I'll get more serious with the water adjustments.

Gist of this is that you don't have to start with distilled water. Just get whatever is the least expensive or easiest to obtain that you can find the analysis for and adjust it to what you need for your particular style of beer.

 

[cire]

Unless you are brewing a very dark beer, you don't want to add chalk. It doesn't easily dissolve in any case.

 

[z-bob]

Walmart and the local supermarkets here all have RO water dispensers where you fill your own jugs for 35¢ a gallon or less. You might see if you have that available.

For about $6, Menard's sells 4 gallons of "spring water" (RO water with a little bit of minerals added back) in a lightweight PET carboy that you can use for a fermenter or for buying Walmart RO water.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

1) Is it reasonable to assume that since I don't like the taste of my water that I would improve my beers by using DW and adjuncts to achieve a water profile to match the style of beer I am brewing?

Yes, it is reasonable to assume this.

2) Am I on target or way off with the listed adjuncts to get DW to the "balanced profile" on BrewersFriend? I am somewhat confused here because I have read so many posts that say, "I never use baking soda" but I see no other reasonable way to get the HCO3 number even close.

Ignore the HCO3- value. Many people will also ignore Mg & Na. And the beer comes out fine.

3) Are the profiles on BrewersFriend reasonable? (I think I would only used Balanced, Light colored and hoppy, Pilsner, and Altbier)

The "balanced profile" is a good profile. I haven't looked at the others recently, but I would anticipate that they are reasonable.

4) If those profiles are not reasonable, what resource is available for reasonable profiles?

(skip)

5) Within a profile, is there an adjunct or a ratio that is more important than the others? (either most important in producing a good beer or most likely to ruin a batch)

You don't need to match the numbers in the profile. You may not be able to taste the difference between 90 and 110 in Cl or S04.

Some guidelines:

• Ca: 50 to 100 (to help with the mash)
• keep the ratio of Cl to S04 about 1:1 with each around 80 to 120

6) Is there something am I missing?

(skip)

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Unless you are brewing a very dark beer, you don't want to add chalk. It doesn't easily dissolve in any case.

Cire, looking at my water though Na and MG are somewhat high, at 291 ppm HCO3, I wouldn't mind trying it out for dark ales. That said, if starting with RO and building with salts, is there a method to add in some chalk? Boiling then cooling?

And if I can get the proper water with my water + salts, I've forgotten how to deal with the sparge water. I've never been a fan of using "optimized" mash water with proper mineral content, then forgetting about the sparge save bringing it's pH to proper range. If I wanted the dilution, I'd account for it overall between mash and sparge water.

That said, it takes ridiculous amounts of phosphoric or lactic to get such a hard sparge water down to proper pH. Any suggestions (besides the obvious - sulfuric or hydrochloric)?

 

[mac_1103]

Why not just get some bottled water that is essentially RO or even distilled or heavily filtered water with some of the chemicals added back to make it taste better. In gallon sizes, they are usually less expensive than water labeled as distilled around here.

Where I live the price is the same. And it just went up to a buck and a half a gallon. I'm getting pretty jealous of all y'all who can get RO for less than a buck a gallon.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Where I live the price is the same. And it just went up to a buck and a half a gallon. I getting pretty jealous of all y'all who can get RO for less than a buck a gallon.

Yeah, pretty lucky. $0.42. Haven't done a TDS on the machine, but so far, beers mash well and taste great.

 

[huckdavidson]

Water salts or "salts" are generally the terms used when referring to water additives for brewing liquor.

Don't try to match a specific water profile.

Get the chloride (Cl) and sulfate (SO4) close to the desired levels, then *only if necessary* add enough acid to bring the pH down to an acceptable range (or baking soda to get it up to an acceptable range).

Your example above 9lbs 2 row and 1lb Crystal 20, when entered in Bru n water w/ 100% distilled doesn't require any acid and only 3.6g Gypsum and 2.5g CaCl to meet the requirement of the yellow balanced profile in a no sparge situation -or- a split of the same w/ ~.1 - .2 ml of 10% phosphoric acid in a sparge situation (see below).

You could add 13 grams of water salts to your distilled water but it's best to simplify.

No Sparge

Batch sparge

 

[Bobby_M]

I am not interested in the time or expense or maintenance of an RO system

About $125 to never have to haul 80 pounds of water from the store every brew day and unlimited drinking water with no chlorine in it seems like a pretty good deal to me.

1) Is it reasonable to assume that since I don't like the taste of my water that I would improve my beers by using DW and adjuncts to achieve a water profile to match the style of beer I am brewing?

Way too much emphasis is put on how the water tastes though it's usually in the form of "the water tastes good so it will make good beer". Something like that (and it's not accurate in either direction). Aside from the objectively detrimental chlorine and the permanent phenolic flavors it can impart, the water chemistry's effect on mash ph has the biggest potential for off flavors but that depends on beer color and tap water HCO3. HCO3 too high and grain bill not dark/acidic enough to compensate and you get a mash pH above 5.6 and astringency becomes a problem. The mineral balance matters a little, but it's more seasoning than substance as long as it's not way out of typical ranges.

2) Am I on target or way off with the listed adjuncts to get DW to the "balanced profile" on BrewersFriend? I am somewhat confused here because I have read so many posts that say, "I never use baking soda" but I see no other reasonable way to get the HCO3 number even close.

Hco3 is only going to counterbalance an acidic mash due to a roast heavy grain bill. Don't stress about a low mash ph, even as low as 4.9 as it is relatively benign compared to high ph. Even with relatively pure RO (almost distilled) and a black imperial stout, I've never used baking soda or chalk.

3) Are the profiles on BrewersFriend reasonable? (I think I would only used Balanced, Light colored and hoppy, Pilsner, and Altbier)
4) If those profiles are not reasonable, what resource is available for reasonable profiles?
5) Within a profile, is there an adjunct or a ratio that is more important than the others? (either most important in producing a good beer or most likely to ruin a batch)
6) Is there something am I missing?

Thanks in advance.

Mash ph first priority.. 4.9 to 5.5.

Calcium minimum 50ppm.

Those are the only two things I feel that you MUST do. The rest is optional:

20ppm sodium

Sulfate to chloride ratios have the least effect, play around if you want but don't worry about it. The beer will be fine with equal parts both at 25-100ppm each.

 

[hotbeer]

Where I live the price is the same. And it just went up to a buck and a half a gallon. I getting pretty jealous of all y'all who can get RO for less than a buck a gallon.

Yeah, that's part of the reason why we quibble here. We just don't realize that our reality isn't everyone else's reality.

I'm not sure what I paid the last time I got it, but Costco's brand of water is RO... I think. And the last time I paid attention to it's price it was $1.76 for a case with 6 one gallon jugs in it. 29¢ a gallon. Distilled water here is now almost as much as the case of their water for just a gallon. Though if you hunt hard, it might be founds still for a dollar/gal.

 

[MaxStout]

About $125 to never have to haul 80 pounds of water from the store every brew day and unlimited drinking water with no chlorine in it seems like a pretty good deal to me.

I used to buy RO water from the store. Yeah, it's about $0.30/gallon, but consider this. Schlepping a couple 5 gallon jugs of that home every time. And how often does the store replace those filters? Maybe the filters are doing their job, maybe not. And what's your time worth?

Check out @Buckeye_Hydro. Russ can set you up with a decent RO system that will pay for itself in cost savings and your time and your back. You will find other uses for RO water once you start making your own. Mixing Starsan and other chemicals, coffee brewing, etc.

 

[Brewdog80]

How about this? Does Costco (don't have one near us) deliver? Sam's delivers for free with their higher membership. Order 10 or 30 gallons of water along with enough to get delivered to your house. Yeah, got to tip the person, but you ain't lugging in at all.

 

[jerrylotto]

Unless you are brewing a very dark beer, you don't want to add chalk. It doesn't easily dissolve in any case.

It does below pH 5.3

 

[MaxStout]

If you need to raise pH, use pickling lime (calcium hydroxide). It dissolves much more readily.

 

[hottpeper13]

I bought my RO system for 150$ and the filter replacement is 100$ (last time,expecting that to go up) every 3000 gal. I think a Christmas present at 150$ is pretty good,so is 3 cents per gal. Best of all no schlepping.

 

[mabrungard]

It does below pH 5.3

You are correct that it will dissolve, but that will take many hours, if not days. That's not helpful within the duration of the typical 1 hour mash. Chalk is impractical in brewing use.

 

[jerrylotto]

You are correct that it will dissolve, but that will take many hours, if not days. That's not helpful within the duration of the typical 1 hour mash. Chalk is impractical in brewing use.

Not so, powdered chalk dissolves pretty much immediately when I get down to pH 5.3 conditioning my brewing water

 

[Zippy123]

Thanks for helping me understand what is CRITICAL: Mash pH 4.9-5.5, Ca 50-100, Cl:S04 at 1:1 in range 80-120.

I looked into the suggestion of buying a few 4-gallon jugs of RO from Menards ($6 ea) then filling them at Woodmans ($0.35 gal). That right there is the ticket for my brewing water. I already shop at Woodmans once a week so it is not a hardship to "lug a few jugs" on grocery day. If I brew 18 batches a year (I brew less than that) my first-year cost is (6x2) + (17x8x0.35) = 12+47.6 = 59.60. It is worth it to me to lug jugs and avoid the cost of installation and maintenance on an RO system. If I wanted to use RO for all my kitchen needs then I would install RO but it has not come to that.

Thanks all for your help.

 

[VikeMan]

Thanks for helping me understand what is CRITICAL: Mash pH 4.9-5.5,

I'd suggest targeting 5.2-5.6 (or -5.5. if you prefer), depending on the style. Sure, you can "get away" with a pH below 5.2, but it's not ideal. And it's not very difficult to control.

 

[gaviga]

I used to buy RO water from the store. Yeah, it's about $0.30/gallon, but consider this. Schlepping a couple 5 gallon jugs of that home every time. And how often does the store replace those filters? Maybe the filters are doing their job, maybe not. And what's your time worth?

Check out @Buckeye_Hydro. Russ can set you up with a decent RO system that will pay for itself in cost savings and your time and your back. You will find other uses for RO water once you start making your own. Mixing Starsan and other chemicals, coffee brewing, etc.

My local water treatment (softening/RO) person installed my RO with a 9 gallon tank and he ran a second line right to my brewing room. I fill my system directly, no lifting water ever again.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

I bought my RO system for 150$ and the filter replacement is 100$ (last time,expecting that to go up) every 3000 gal. I think a Christmas present at 150$ is pretty good,so is 3 cents per gal. Best of all no schlepping.

Hmm. That replacement cost seems way too high. Are you replacing your membrane every time you replace your other filters?

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

My local water treatment (softening/RO) person installed my RO with a 9 gallon tank and he ran a second line right to my brewing room. I fill my system directly, no lifting water ever again.

This is a good point. It is easy to configure an RO system to output to both a pressurized container (like a pressure tank) and an unpressurized container (like a kettle). The water sent to an UNpressurized container will be more pure, and will be produced with much less water (concentrate) going down the drain, and much less needless use of the finite capacity of your filters.

Russ

 

[hottpeper13]

The 100$ replacements are for all 3 and this time I got the coconut fiber instead of the charcoal. As I have quit Amazon I'll need to get my next set from you.

 

[bwible]

How about blending your water with some percent of distilled so you are not starting with all distiled water and all your values at zero? There are water software programs where you can enter your mash and sparge water volumes and then what percent of that is distilled or RO. I do this with mine because the sodium level here is higher than I want, I have almost no sulfate and a moderate amount of chloride. So I blend down to a good starting point to lower the sodium and then mostly add gypsum.

I moved a couple years ago and found I could make great stouts and ok lagers or blondes but nothing hoppy. All my hoppy beers tasted like crap. I had a water analysis done and this is what I learned with some assistance from others here. I am much happier with my beers now.

When you say you don’t like the taste of your water, what is it you are tasting that you don’t like? If its swimming pool/chlorine then yes you need to use campden - gypsum, Calcium Chloride and salt are not going to help with that. You don’t need alot, 1 small campden tablet does up to 15 gallons I think. I would definitely at least try it once or twice before writing it off.

Other flavors I’m not sure and others here know much more than I do about water.

 

[jerrylotto]

How about blending your water with some percent of distilled so you are not starting with all distiled water and all your values at zero? There are water software programs where you can enter your mash and sparge water volumes and then what percent of that is distilled or RO. I do this with mine because the sodium level here is higher than I want, I have almost no sulfate and a moderate amount of chloride. So I blend down to a good starting point to lower the sodium and then mostly add gypsum.

I moved a couple years ago and found I could make great stouts and ok lagers or blondes but nothing hoppy. All my hoppy beers tasted like crap. I had a water analysis done and this is what I learned with some assistance from others here. I am much happier with my beers now.

When you say you don’t like the taste of your water, what is it you are tasting that you don’t like? If its swimming pool/chlorine then yes you need to use campden - gypsum, Calcium Chloride and salt are not going to help with that. You don’t need alot, 1 small campden tablet does up to 15 gallons I think. I would definitely at least try it once or twice before writing it off.

Other flavors I’m not sure and others here know much more than I do about water.

If it's a municipal water source, you should be able to ask your water commission for a report as well. If it's well water, Ward labs does testing. You should really find out what's in it, even if you can characterize it by taste

 

[gaviga]

How about blending your water with some percent of distilled so you are not starting with all distiled water and all your values at zero? There are water software programs where you can enter your mash and sparge water volumes and then what percent of that is distilled or RO. I do this with mine because the sodium level here is higher than I want, I have almost no sulfate and a moderate amount of chloride. So I blend down to a good starting point to lower the sodium and then mostly add gypsum.

I moved a couple years ago and found I could make great stouts and ok lagers or blondes but nothing hoppy. All my hoppy beers tasted like crap. I had a water analysis done and this is what I learned with some assistance from others here. I am much happier with my beers now.

When you say you don’t like the taste of your water, what is it you are tasting that you don’t like? If its swimming pool/chlorine then yes you need to use campden - gypsum, Calcium Chloride and salt are not going to help with that. You don’t need alot, 1 small campden tablet does up to 15 gallons I think. I would definitely at least try it once or twice before writing it off.

Other flavors I’m not sure and others here know much more than I do about water.

Then you wouldn't have any idea what your water chemistry is. Best to start with RO and build.

 

[WortMonger]

This is a good point. It is easy to configure an RO system to output to both a pressurized container (like a pressure tank) and an unpressurized container (like a kettle). The water sent to an UNpressurized container will be more pure, and will be produced with much less water (concentrate) going down the drain, and much less needless use of the finite capacity of your filters.

Russ

Hey Russ, just checked out your website and will shop with you in the future. I just set up for myself a dedicated brewing RO setup with DI to get me to zero TDS. I wrote a thread about it called 0 TDS Water, Finally and now I have no drinking water in the house... which is why I will be talking to Russ in the near future.

I'm 100% with what everyone is saying about the water, and that RO/DW/DI/etc aren't necessary for making good beer. Learning for myself that hitting perfect numbers/amounts of mineral salts is pointless, and that HCO3 isn't really a concern when I try to fit to a profile. My want for zero TDS was to have a starting point of zero, so that I would know what was in (and what I was adding) to my water. I can't convince myself that this isn't the easiest way for me to brew. I fire up the filter and it goes right into clean kegs awaiting brew day. Hesitation free salt additions to get me within "parameters" of what I am looking for profile-wise, and I don't have to lift a thing (except the thing). RO is usually slow, so I had planned on filling a Brute trash can overnight with it, but mine was surprisingly fast. Now, I just set a timer and watch the last few minutes of the keg filling. I series-ed two RO memebranes where the first membrane's waste brine water is the supply for the next, and both send their good permeate water to the DI filters. After making this, I will never have a pressure tank on an RO system again. I haven't found an RO tank that doesn't eventually blow out on you, and this tankless one is fast enough to fill a glass of drinking water or the icemaker without one. I mention this because others have brought up the zero TDS water and thought this might contribute.