8 batches and I still can't shake this off flavor...

[-TH-]

Are you guys talking about the "extract twang" that many people complain about with extract beers?

I know when I started a few years ago, I started with extract kits and each of the four I brewed all had that twang to them. It usually appeared as an aftertaste (or possibly when I burped).

I can't really explain it any better other that "twang" since it's been a few years and it completely disappeared when I went all-grain.

For all I know it could be. But if its not, then obviously I want to fix it before going AG. That said, if I can't fix it on my current experimental batch, I think I might go AG next (once I calm down from my fit of rage).

 

[Brew-Happy]

-TH-

I know you mentioned using bottled water on your last batch, but I did not notice any mention of the source. Is this a national brand of bottled water or is one of those fill-yourself station?

If it is the latter, you are just using the same municipal water that you use at home, only it is filtered more.

Just curious. I like the dedication you are putting into this. Good luck

 

[RedIrocZ-28]

I've been boiling the water with the sugar in it but I am realizing now that many do not. My priming mixture has a very slight caramel color to it when I am finished. Is that normal?

Sort of but should be avoided if you can.

I will be at westshore next week again, not sure what days but most likely it will be tuesday and thursday. If I can remember I will let you know.

 

[-TH-]

-TH-

I know you mentioned using bottled water on your last batch, but I did not notice any mention of the source. Is this a national brand of bottled water or is one of those fill-yourself station?

If it is the latter, you are just using the same municipal water that you use at home, only it is filtered more.

Just curious. I like the dedication you are putting into this. Good luck

Hmmm good question. I bought it in gallon jugs but I didn't check where the water came from. I have bought two different kinds from two different grocery stores.

 

[pompeiisneaks]

I've seen it discussed, yes the bottling sugar should be clear... if its brown that means you've altered it some, carmelized it, and that could be the problem. As far as I've ever done and heard, you just need to get the water to a boil to dissolve the sugar well in a small amt of water. I always just get water to a rolling boil and add the corn sugar and then let it cool to room temps before adding it to my bottling bucket, then I transfer the wort from the fermentation vessel and the transfer mixes the sugar in well. Then I bottle. This could be causing the issue, its worth a test as well.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

Taking the beer off the yeast to soon can also lead to add flavors as the yeast need time do some "clean up" after fermentation.

Acetdelhyde for one, though this tends to have an green apple taste/smell. Recently read it can allow have a latex paint smell.

 

[Memorex88]

So what was the result of the experiment?

 

[shizzle]

im guessing the carmelized corn sugar

 

[Saccharomyces]

Old thread but FWIW I found the hard way bottled/RO water can still have chloramine at low levels leading to chlorophenols so it's best to treat with Campden tablets 1/2 tablet to 10 gallons, stir it up and let it sit 1/2 hour before brewing with it.

 

[shizzle]

Not sure how valid this is, but...

Removing Chloramines from Water

And, contrary to another widely promoted myth, reverse osmosis units do remove chloramine. In fact, they do it well, because any good RO unit contains a couple of carbon filters and the water gets an extra slow pass through the first one

This means that carbon filtration is the best removal method, and, contrary to urban legends, filter carbon does indeed remove chloramine. The problem is that it takes more carbon and more contact time to do the job.

 

[-TH-]

The saga continues here...
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/ch...is-my-moby-dick-my-caddy-shack-gopher-116482/

Batch #9 had the chlorophenols as well. It didn't matter how I primed.

Batch #10 was brewed 10 days ago. This time I used campden for the first time - for everything including sanitizer water. I also threw a little 5.2 buffer in the steeping water just for kicks. Also a new brew pot, but that was just coincidental. Two more weeks atleast in primary then I'll bottle and wait a couple more. That's when I'll know for sure.

Batch #11 will most likely be AG regardless of the results. I just finished my DIY grain mill tonight. Look for the thread.

 

[Ysgard]

I noticed in your chart that your Bleach sanitation and your bottling bucket use overlapped. Have you switched bottling buckets? If you had bleach in the bottling bucket, it could be impregnated with the bleach still.

Also, as a curiosity, is Broccoli bitter to you? (wondering if you're on the sensitive end of tasters/supertaster).

 

[-TH-]

I noticed in your chart that your Bleach sanitation and your bottling bucket use overlapped. Have you switched bottling buckets? If you had bleach in the bottling bucket, it could be impregnated with the bleach still.

Also, as a curiosity, is Broccoli bitter to you? (wondering if you're on the sensitive end of tasters/supertaster).

The first bottling bucket was actually a mr beer keg. The bottling bucket from batch 3 on was part of my beer making kit that came with no-rinse sanitizer and I never used bleach on it.

I don't think brocolli is bitter. I have a hard time detecting bitterness actually. My wife notices the off flavor more than I do, I tend to have to smell it while drinking or burping to know its there (if that makes sense). One thing I can say for sure is that I've tasted it in all my beers, but I have never tasted it in any commercial beers (and I've tried alot).

 

[anemic]

TH,

Did you try the liquid yeast+starter?

Did you try the 6 week method: approximately 2 weeks each in primary, secondary & bottle condition?

I probably tasted phenolics this week when a brew-buddy brought some of his over. I thought it defied description; perhaps like drinking a tire, time probably won't heal his problem. He thought his yeast was too old to work correctly. It was last summers' recycled Oberon yeast. He's told me he's never done a starter. He just pitches directly regardless of age. (yikes & yuck) His beers are hit & miss between brilliant & undrinkable.

anemic

PS - I believe if he had simply given his yeast the nose test ahead of time he may have had less, possibly zero, of a problem in that case. Anyway, super yucky.

 

[RedIrocZ-28]

Todd, I still have 2 of the 3 beers you dropped off to me in the fridge conditioning. I drank one within 3 days and I got this weird off taste, I likened it to band-aid. I figured I would wait for 2 weeks for the others. And its now been 2 weeks. I'll crack each of them open tonight most likely and see if 2 weeks in the cold did anything.

I'll let you know!

 

[-TH-]

TH,

Did you try the liquid yeast+starter?

Did you try the 6 week method: approximately 2 weeks each in primary, secondary & bottle condition?

I probably tasted phenolics this week when a brew-buddy brought some of his over. I thought it defied description; perhaps like drinking a tire, time probably won't heal his problem. He thought his yeast was too old to work correctly. It was last summers' recycled Oberon yeast. He's told me he's never done a starter. He just pitches directly regardless of age. (yikes & yuck) His beers are hit & miss between brilliant & undrinkable.

anemic

PS - I believe if he had simply given his yeast the nose test ahead of time he may have had less, possibly zero, of a problem in that case. Anyway, super yucky.

I've used dry yeast all but 1 time. When I used liquid, I pitched about 1/2 vial in a 3/4 gallon sample batch. It tasted almost identical to the US-05 samples.

 

[-TH-]

Todd, I still have 2 of the 3 beers you dropped off to me in the fridge conditioning. I drank one within 3 days and I got this weird off taste, I likened it to band-aid. I figured I would wait for 2 weeks for the others. And its now been 2 weeks. I'll crack each of them open tonight most likely and see if 2 weeks in the cold did anything.

I'll let you know!

OK thanks!

 

[tspilker]

What about your stirring impliment? It could be melting on the bottom of the brew pot

 

[PintOfBitter]

I sypathize - for an entire year, all my batches had that exact flavor. I changed every single variable - completely new fermentation vessels, hoses, store water vs. home water, dry vs. liquid yeast, late additions, etc. etc. etc. The common factor was that they all were extract batches, from only two different sources, who may be using the same brand of extract anyway.

My first all grain batch had NONE of the flavor, and it's been gone since! I have since decided it was from the extract I had been using. The content of the extract producer's water combines with the content of yours to possibly drastically increase the amount of dissolved solids. You're using their concentrated water along with yours. Just a hypothesis.

FWIW, all my friends extract beers have had the same funk.

 

[WorryWort]

First off, I've never had that flavour (that's right flavour with a 'u' - i'm Canadian).

I noticed "Aluminum Turkey Fryer". Was it ever actually used as a turkey fryer? Because if so there could be carbons in that thing, especially because it's aluminum, that you might never get rid of - those could cause any number of off flavours. I know the first two batches were different, but I'd discount the Mr. Beer kit experiences.

I'm also looking at the yeast as a source. Autolysis can cause burnt rubber flavours and sulferyness (made that word up). I do not know what in your process could cause autolysis - bad yeast? too much yeast? environmental factors such as wild yeast?

Personal, I am sensitive to yeast character. Dry yeast and me don't get a long well. But they work for many.

I use Iodopher too, just check the concentration. Maybe you're using too much and tasting that.

I can't figure this is bacterial, because it would be difficult for spontaneous and uncontrolled bacteria to provide such consistent results.

Good luck!

 

[-TH-]

I am starting to believe I might not be able to make a good beer from extract. I'm ok with that, I just want to be sure it's not something that will follow me along the way to AG if you know what I mean.

Interesting comment about the turkey fryer pot. It was used for deep frying turkeys dozens of times which I did start to wonder if this was an issue. Oil had been burnt on the outside quite a bit until I took it off with an angle grinder. The bottom of the pot was wavy from being warped, and maybe thin in spots from being ground. Also I know the pot had been cleaned in the past with oven cleaner. So I did end up buying a new pot (alum) just a few weeks ago and I put a nice oxidized layer on it before brewing batch #10 2 weeks ago.

It still could be yeast, but I don't think I do anything different than a lot of others who are successful. The only thing slightly uncommon is that my batches are all 3 gallon, and I pitch a whole packet of dry yeast. I guess its possible that it's too much?

 

[WorryWort]

Yeh. I'm honed in on that turkey fryer. The new pot will be a good thing even if it doesn't fix everything.

According to Mr Malty - may fav pitching rate calc - you need about 6g of yeast for a 3 gallon batch at 1.050. So if you're using 11.5g packets then you are over pitching by almost a factor of 2 in some cases (Unless your brews are 1.090). This might not be the cause, but it might be good practice to use less.

Over pitching can cause autolysis, I've heard. I do not KNOW for certain what autolysis could tastes like, but Palmer says 'burnt rubber' and sulfury. However the one time I had something that seemed like autolysis was because I way over-calculated and over pitched my yeast. As I mentioned I don't use dry yeast much, so I screwed up and I put about 3 times too much.

Here's a good thread debating autolysis though: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/autolysis-101230/ couldn't hurt to read it.

If you brew with your new pot, and pitch the right amount of healthy yeast and you STILL get this flavour then I am clueless!

Good luck dude!

 

[Malticulous]

I wonder if it could be oxidation from racking. Is it sort of cardboard like on the exhale?

 

[Saccharomyces]

11.5g in 2.5 gallons or so isn't overpitching. At that point you are around 2M cells/L/*plato. A local microbrewery reuses his yeast and his pitching rate is 4M cells/L/*Plato. Yeast will reach maximum concentration at around 25M-50M cells/mL so unless you pitch significantly more than that I can't imagine this causing trouble.

In any case autolyzed yeast taste like burnt rubber. Your off flavor I'm 99% sure is chlorophenols which can only come from chlorine or wild yeast contamination. Chlorine is really REALLY REALLY common as a source of off flavors in homebrew since nearly all water in the tap or that we buy in bottles has chlorine or chloramine in it as a disinfectant.

 

[WorryWort]

11.5g in 2.5 gallons or so isn't overpitching. At that point you are around 2M cells/L/*plato. A local microbrewery reuses his yeast and his pitching rate is 4M cells/L/*Plato. Yeast will reach maximum concentration at around 25M-50M cells/mL so unless you pitch significantly more than that I can't imagine this causing trouble.

In any case autolyzed yeast taste like burnt rubber. Your off flavor I'm 99% sure is chlorophenols which can only come from chlorine or wild yeast contamination. Chlorine is really REALLY REALLY common as a source of off flavors in homebrew since nearly all water in the tap or that we buy in bottles has chlorine or chloramine in it as a disinfectant.

Ok - i don't disagree with the chlorophenols necessarily, but i thought he'd tried various water supplies, i was just throwing out other suggestions and this is all according to mrmalty.com. I'm not certain that's the cause, but it wouldn't hurt to consider pitch rates.

I was much more concerned about the turkey fryer.

Heres the break down on the math if anyone cares

1.5 -2 M cells/mL/*Plato is appropriate for a lager, but ale is .75 M cell/mL/*Plato

MrMalty assumes 20 billion cells per gram, TH brews 3 gallons, I assumed 1.050 OG, therefore:

.75 Mil Cells * 11355 mL * 12.5 plato =
106 billion cells need.

which is ~5.25g of dried yeast at 20 billion cells /gram. according to this 11.5g is too much by a factor of 2.

but all else being equal you can still make great beer outside of mrmalty's guidlines.

 

[WorryWort]

I am starting to believe I might not be able to make a good beer from extract.

Many award winning extract brews have been made!

 

[-TH-]

Many award winning extract brews have been made!

none of them by me I can assure you

 

[RedIrocZ-28]

Todd, had the others. Here is my impression. The nose of the beer is great! No off smells at all. Initial taste is fantastic. Well balanced. The beer is quite clear, no haze, very nice. Head is thin and frothy. Aftertaste... thats where the "taste" comes in. Its like band-aid, astringent... it drys my mouth out. So whatever causes that flavor, get rid of that! Otherwise, damn fine brews.

 

[-TH-]

Todd, had the others. Here is my impression. The nose of the beer is great! No off smells at all. Initial taste is fantastic. Well balanced. The beer is quite clear, no haze, very nice. Head is thin and frothy. Aftertaste... thats where the "taste" comes in. Its like band-aid, astringent... it drys my mouth out. So whatever causes that flavor, get rid of that! Otherwise, damn fine brews.

Thanks Brad. At least now I know its not all in my head!!! Funny you use the word astringent, because I thought this maybe as well. Maybe that will give me something more to investigate...

I have high hopes for my current batch. But they've been shattered before.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

 

[RedIrocZ-28]

Definitely do Todd, please send me a PM and let me know.

Have you gone all grain yet??

 

[Joe Camel]

After reading this thread, I googled "chlorophenol taste beer" and a couple of interesting articles popped up. Digging through a couple I found that some chlorophenols are taste detectable at around 10 ppb (!). Assuming the tap water you're using for bottling sugar has 1.38 ppm chlorine in it, two cups of water in 3 gallons of beer will add about 50 ppb of chlorine to the whole (1380*2 ppm/48 cups in 3 gallons).

Another said that nylon tubing, when sanitized with chlorine based sanitizers will produce a ton of chloramine precursors that will convert very easily. Maybe a good long soak of your tubing in a campden solution would help.

What I think you should do is taste your beer throughout the process and note where you can detect the flavour. Maybe you can narrow down when it arrives and find the culprit. ie, is it missing before bottling and present after?

hope you can figure this out, good luck

 

[fezzman]

Do you use an autosiphon? Does your plunger reach all the way to the bottom?

I had MANY batches get an unpleasant off flavor that just about had me quit brewing. My siphon was the last thing that I replaced and voila...off flavor was gone. After very closely examining my siphon I could even barely see haze on the inside of the large tube, down at the bottom. The plunger doesn't reach the bottom and I never had a brush that could reach that far so that section never got scrubbed. Buildup ensued from years of use that simple soaking just wouldn't fix...even with oxyclean. At quick glance the tube appeared clean until closely examined under a bright light.

Hope this helps. I felt like an idiot that something so simple caused so many bad batches.

 

[-TH-]

Do you use an autosiphon? Does your plunger reach all the way to the bottom?

I had MANY batches get an unpleasant off flavor that just about had me quit brewing. My siphon was the last thing that I replaced and voila...off flavor was gone. After very closely examining my siphon I could even barely see haze on the inside of the large tube, down at the bottom. The plunger doesn't reach the bottom and I never had a brush that could reach that far so that section never got scrubbed. Buildup ensued from years of use that simple soaking just wouldn't fix...even with oxyclean. At quick glance the tube appeared clean until closely examined under a bright light.

Hope this helps. I felt like an idiot that something so simple caused so many bad batches.

Funny you should mention this because a few nights ago I was verifying in my head that I had eliminated all my equipment as possible causes then it hit me: My auto siphon was the only piece used in every batch (except #1 - I'll explain in a minute). I had eliminated the bottling bucket, wand, spigot, etc by bottling straight from the fermenter a few times, also I replaced the tubing with silicone tubing, but I always used the auto siphon. The only batch I didn't bottle with it was batch #1 which I used the mr. beer keg itself. Interestingly that batch didn't have the off flavor (i don't think) but it was a mr. beer kit that tasted very cidery so who knows.

Regarding a previous post, I always taste along the way and it always shows up AFTER a week or two in the bottle. Used to make me think bottling process but chlorophenols are often not detectable before then regardless of the cause.

 

[fezzman]

Regarding a previous post, I always taste along the way and it always shows up AFTER a week or two in the bottle. Used to make me think bottling process but chlorophenols are often not detectable before then regardless of the cause.

I also used to think it was my bottling process until I started kegging. I had that flavor in two kegs and then I remembered that I still hadn't replaced my siphon. Now I just need to find a bottle brush that is long/skinny enough to reach to the bottom. [/paranoia]

 

[anemic]

by the way, I had a bad gasket on my AS creating aeration & lost-siphon. I replaced it with flyguys $3 DIY tee-siphon. That thing is slick. For me, it works better.

 

[-TH-]

by the way, I had a bad gasket on my AS creating aeration & lost-siphon. I replaced it with flyguys $3 DIY tee-siphon. That thing is slick. For me, it works better.

Thanks for the tip!

Also just noticed you are from GR - hey neighbor!

 

[RedIrocZ-28]

Yeah, anemic, whats up neighbor!

Todd, gone AG yet? using star-san yet?

 

[Joe Camel]

Regarding a previous post, I always taste along the way and it always shows up AFTER a week or two in the bottle. Used to make me think bottling process but chlorophenols are often not detectable before then regardless of the cause.

Why would you think that chlorophenols wouldn't be detectable prior to bottling? If they're there, you'd taste them. If they show up after bottling, I'd bet strongly that it has nothing to do with your brewing process and more to do with the bottling process. Either you're introducing chlorine or wild yeast at this point.

Here's a process of elimination plan

Taste beer when you would normally bottle

Leave in primary two more weeks (assuming taste shows up in bottle is because wild yeast is present but needs two more weeks to manifest)

While racking into bottling bucket, fill one sanitized bottle directly and store (will show if off taste is coming from siphon, not bucket or sugar)

Bottle one after racking but before adding priming sugar (assumes flavour comes from bucket)

bottle rest normally (assumes flavour comes from sugar)

Invite three friends over and give each 2 random samples from the 3 beers and make them write down whether they taste bandaids in each sample.

Compile and compare

 

[-TH-]

Why would you think that chlorophenols wouldn't be detectable prior to bottling? If they're there, you'd taste them. If they show up after bottling, I'd bet strongly that it has nothing to do with your brewing process and more to do with the bottling process. Either you're introducing chlorine or wild yeast at this point.

Here's a process of elimination plan

Taste beer when you would normally bottle

Leave in primary two more weeks (assuming taste shows up in bottle is because wild yeast is present but needs two more weeks to manifest)

While racking into bottling bucket, fill one sanitized bottle directly and store (will show if off taste is coming from siphon, not bucket or sugar)

Bottle one after racking but before adding priming sugar (assumes flavour comes from bucket)

bottle rest normally (assumes flavour comes from sugar)

Invite three friends over and give each 2 random samples from the 3 beers and make them write down whether they taste bandaids in each sample.

Compile and compare

I thought I read somewhere that you can't taste/smell chlorophenols until after some carbonation. But I'm no expert - if I was I would have licked this by now.

Anyway your list of suggestions makes perfect sense, in fact I did exactly those steps and more for batch #9. I split that batch into 4 fermentors, used 2 kinds of yeast, and primed with several different methods: Corn sugar, packaged priming mixture, and carb tabs. Tried boiling the sugar in water, tried putting sugar straight in the bottle. For some bottles I bypassed the bottling bucket/spigot/wand to rule that out. I did every possible combination I could think of. And every frickin single beer had it. But like I mentioned earlier, the one piece of equipment I overlooked and didn't take out of the equation was my autosiphon.

I was thinking about trying my first AG this sat, but I might try one more small test extract batch without the autosiphon first.

 

[anemic]

What's the update from Zeeland, TH?

Hi Iroc!