Mystery problem about 8 days into ferment - TWICE

[lutherieguy]

Hi everyone This is my first post after much lurking and learning. Just an interested hobbyist from the frozen north dipping his toes into fermenting meads and cider so far. Thanks for all the great resources here.

I have a mystery for the great minds of the forum, that has me disappointed twice now after wasting two back to back 3 gallon cider batches. The recipe (per gallon) is one gallon pasteurized juice with no preservatives, a pound of brown sugar one cinnamon sick, 10 raisins, and three cloves. Around day 8-10 ferment slows and grows cloudy and bad tasting like you chewed a multi vitamin with slight alcohol taste. I used the same recipe in glass 1 gallon jar with no issues. The ONLY difference between the jar and the 3 gallon Fastferment conical batches that failed is that I used 3/4 teaspoon of DAP for the entire 3 gallons (not much right?) Mixed in with the warmed juice then added to entire ferment and mixed before pitching yeast (Lalvin-118). The first 8 days were amazing. and bubbling like crazy about 12 hours after pitching right up to 8-10 days where bubbles slowed and cloudiness started to become apparent. Is this the little bit of DAP screwing with stuff? Definitely not using it on my third batch but so many other recipes called for it esp with store bought juice and no fruit, that I thought why not? Is there something else it could be? I added more yeast - nothing. Tried a little Fermaid 0 as a last ditch hail Mary and that made it more vile LOL The ******** Fastferment conical fermenter piece of garbage valve will be replaced with stainless in a day or two for the next batch as it has broken repeatedly testing my stretched patience and cider budget. This first 'big' run of cider has been a huge waste so far but I am determined to work it out if I can. I have a 5 gallon Fermzilla fermenter on the way for beer but I like the 3 gallon cider batches if I can make this Fastferment conical work!

Anyway that is what I am working on. Happy Easter to those who celebrate and happy holiday to the rest!

 

[JohnSand]

Welcome aboard!
I've made hard cider only once in recent years, using just two different pasteurized ciders from mills. In addition to the parts that I made with yeast, I let one spontaneously ferment. It did so quickly, so the pasteurization was not completely effective. So you might have something other than yeast working on your cider. But in any case I would give it more time. Incomplete fermentations don't taste good. If you don't find an answer here, you might look for a book on cider making. Study and practice will yield good results.
Happy Easter!

 

[lutherieguy]

Welcome aboard!
I've made hard cider only once in recent years, using just two different pasteurized ciders from mills. In addition to the parts that I made with yeast, I let one spontaneously ferment. It did so quickly, so the pasteurization was not completely effective. So you might have something other than yeast working on your cider. But in any case I would give it more time. Incomplete fermentations don't taste good. If you don't find an answer here, you might look for a book on cider making. Study and practice will yield good results.
Happy Easter!

Thanks. I will give it another few days. So far everything I have used DAP with has been an aggressive fast ferment that is cloudy and tastes like multivitamins. When my stainless valve comes in I am going to remove the lees capture jar and all the murky looking yeast and nutrient. Maybe the flavour will clear up if I clean it out and toss in some extra yeast? After that it is the drain and a new batch with no DAP this time. Maybe it is just this batch of LD Carlson DAP nutrient?

 

[Raptor99]

Welcome!

Apple juice doesn't contain enough nutrients for yeast, so you definitely need to add some yeast nutrients of some kind. A few raisins are not enough to make a difference. Getting the amount right is important as well.

The ONLY difference between the jar and the 3 gallon Fastferment conical batches that failed is that I used 3/4 teaspoon of DAP for the entire 3 gallons (not much right?)

This is your clue. Stressed yeast can produce off flavors, including H2S (Hydrogen Sulfide). The right nutrient balance is part of the solution. If a nutrient shortage is the problem, the ferment starts off well, then slows or gets stuck and produces off flavor. I don't usually use DAP, but I'm guessing that 3/4 a teaspoon is not enough for 3 gallons. You might have better luck with 1.5 or 2 tsp. I prefer an organic nutrient such as Fermaid-O or Fermaid-K rather than straight DAP.

Is the fermentation finished? Do you have a hydrometer? If not, does it taste at all sweet? Maybe fermentation is finished, but it has a bad flavor. In that case, adding more yeast or yeast nutrient won't fix it. If H2S is the problem, you can remedy that by adding some Kmeta and racking it back and forth 2-3 times between two carboys.

Cloudiness can be due to pectic haze. Apples have a lot of pectin. I usually add some pectic enzyme at the beginning, but you could still add it now.

I do my primary fermentation in a food grade bucket covered by a towel, then rack it into a carboy for some bulk aging when it is mostly finished fermention. You don't need a special fermenter to make hard cider. Just a bucket and a glass jug. If you look around, you can find glass 3-gallon carboys.

 

[lutherieguy]

Welcome!

Apple juice doesn't contain enough nutrients for yeast, so you definitely need to add some yeast nutrients of some kind. A few raisins are not enough to make a difference. Getting the amount right is important as well.


This is your clue. Stressed yeast can produce off flavors, including H2S (Hydrogen Sulfide). The right nutrient balance is part of the solution. If a nutrient shortage is the problem, the ferment starts off well, then slows or gets stuck and produces off flavor. I don't usually use DAP, but I'm guessing that 3/4 a teaspoon is not enough for 3 gallons. You might have better luck with 1.5 or 2 tsp. I prefer an organic nutrient such as Fermaid-O or Fermaid-K rather than straight DAP.

Is the fermentation finished? Do you have a hydrometer? If not, does it taste at all sweet? Maybe fermentation is finished, but it has a bad flavor. In that case, adding more yeast or yeast nutrient won't fix it. If H2S is the problem, you can remedy that by adding some Kmeta and racking it back and forth 2-3 times between two carboys.

Cloudiness can be due to pectic haze. Apples have a lot of pectin. I usually add some pectic enzyme at the beginning, but you could still add it now.

I do my primary fermentation in a food grade bucket covered by a towel, then rack it into a carboy for some bulk aging when it is mostly finished fermention. You don't need a special fermenter to make hard cider. Just a bucket and a glass jug. If you look around, you can find glass 3-gallon carboys.

Thanks for the interest and the info! I will be sure to give it a try with the racking before I resort to the drain