8 batches and I still can't shake this off flavor...

[-TH-]

I am starting to believe I might not be able to make a good beer from extract. I'm ok with that, I just want to be sure it's not something that will follow me along the way to AG if you know what I mean.

Interesting comment about the turkey fryer pot. It was used for deep frying turkeys dozens of times which I did start to wonder if this was an issue. Oil had been burnt on the outside quite a bit until I took it off with an angle grinder. The bottom of the pot was wavy from being warped, and maybe thin in spots from being ground. Also I know the pot had been cleaned in the past with oven cleaner. So I did end up buying a new pot (alum) just a few weeks ago and I put a nice oxidized layer on it before brewing batch #10 2 weeks ago.

It still could be yeast, but I don't think I do anything different than a lot of others who are successful. The only thing slightly uncommon is that my batches are all 3 gallon, and I pitch a whole packet of dry yeast. I guess its possible that it's too much?

 

[WorryWort]

Yeh. I'm honed in on that turkey fryer. The new pot will be a good thing even if it doesn't fix everything.

According to Mr Malty - may fav pitching rate calc - you need about 6g of yeast for a 3 gallon batch at 1.050. So if you're using 11.5g packets then you are over pitching by almost a factor of 2 in some cases (Unless your brews are 1.090). This might not be the cause, but it might be good practice to use less.

Over pitching can cause autolysis, I've heard. I do not KNOW for certain what autolysis could tastes like, but Palmer says 'burnt rubber' and sulfury. However the one time I had something that seemed like autolysis was because I way over-calculated and over pitched my yeast. As I mentioned I don't use dry yeast much, so I screwed up and I put about 3 times too much.

Here's a good thread debating autolysis though: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/autolysis-101230/ couldn't hurt to read it.

If you brew with your new pot, and pitch the right amount of healthy yeast and you STILL get this flavour then I am clueless!

Good luck dude!

 

[Malticulous]

I wonder if it could be oxidation from racking. Is it sort of cardboard like on the exhale?

 

[Saccharomyces]

11.5g in 2.5 gallons or so isn't overpitching. At that point you are around 2M cells/L/*plato. A local microbrewery reuses his yeast and his pitching rate is 4M cells/L/*Plato. Yeast will reach maximum concentration at around 25M-50M cells/mL so unless you pitch significantly more than that I can't imagine this causing trouble.

In any case autolyzed yeast taste like burnt rubber. Your off flavor I'm 99% sure is chlorophenols which can only come from chlorine or wild yeast contamination. Chlorine is really REALLY REALLY common as a source of off flavors in homebrew since nearly all water in the tap or that we buy in bottles has chlorine or chloramine in it as a disinfectant.

 

[WorryWort]

11.5g in 2.5 gallons or so isn't overpitching. At that point you are around 2M cells/L/*plato. A local microbrewery reuses his yeast and his pitching rate is 4M cells/L/*Plato. Yeast will reach maximum concentration at around 25M-50M cells/mL so unless you pitch significantly more than that I can't imagine this causing trouble.

In any case autolyzed yeast taste like burnt rubber. Your off flavor I'm 99% sure is chlorophenols which can only come from chlorine or wild yeast contamination. Chlorine is really REALLY REALLY common as a source of off flavors in homebrew since nearly all water in the tap or that we buy in bottles has chlorine or chloramine in it as a disinfectant.

Ok - i don't disagree with the chlorophenols necessarily, but i thought he'd tried various water supplies, i was just throwing out other suggestions and this is all according to mrmalty.com. I'm not certain that's the cause, but it wouldn't hurt to consider pitch rates.

I was much more concerned about the turkey fryer.

Heres the break down on the math if anyone cares

1.5 -2 M cells/mL/*Plato is appropriate for a lager, but ale is .75 M cell/mL/*Plato

MrMalty assumes 20 billion cells per gram, TH brews 3 gallons, I assumed 1.050 OG, therefore:

.75 Mil Cells * 11355 mL * 12.5 plato =
106 billion cells need.

which is ~5.25g of dried yeast at 20 billion cells /gram. according to this 11.5g is too much by a factor of 2.

but all else being equal you can still make great beer outside of mrmalty's guidlines.

 

[WorryWort]

I am starting to believe I might not be able to make a good beer from extract.

Many award winning extract brews have been made!

 

[-TH-]

Many award winning extract brews have been made!

none of them by me I can assure you

 

[RedIrocZ-28]

Todd, had the others. Here is my impression. The nose of the beer is great! No off smells at all. Initial taste is fantastic. Well balanced. The beer is quite clear, no haze, very nice. Head is thin and frothy. Aftertaste... thats where the "taste" comes in. Its like band-aid, astringent... it drys my mouth out. So whatever causes that flavor, get rid of that! Otherwise, damn fine brews.

 

[-TH-]

Todd, had the others. Here is my impression. The nose of the beer is great! No off smells at all. Initial taste is fantastic. Well balanced. The beer is quite clear, no haze, very nice. Head is thin and frothy. Aftertaste... thats where the "taste" comes in. Its like band-aid, astringent... it drys my mouth out. So whatever causes that flavor, get rid of that! Otherwise, damn fine brews.

Thanks Brad. At least now I know its not all in my head!!! Funny you use the word astringent, because I thought this maybe as well. Maybe that will give me something more to investigate...

I have high hopes for my current batch. But they've been shattered before.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

 

[RedIrocZ-28]

Definitely do Todd, please send me a PM and let me know.

Have you gone all grain yet??

 

[Joe Camel]

After reading this thread, I googled "chlorophenol taste beer" and a couple of interesting articles popped up. Digging through a couple I found that some chlorophenols are taste detectable at around 10 ppb (!). Assuming the tap water you're using for bottling sugar has 1.38 ppm chlorine in it, two cups of water in 3 gallons of beer will add about 50 ppb of chlorine to the whole (1380*2 ppm/48 cups in 3 gallons).

Another said that nylon tubing, when sanitized with chlorine based sanitizers will produce a ton of chloramine precursors that will convert very easily. Maybe a good long soak of your tubing in a campden solution would help.

What I think you should do is taste your beer throughout the process and note where you can detect the flavour. Maybe you can narrow down when it arrives and find the culprit. ie, is it missing before bottling and present after?

hope you can figure this out, good luck

 

[fezzman]

Do you use an autosiphon? Does your plunger reach all the way to the bottom?

I had MANY batches get an unpleasant off flavor that just about had me quit brewing. My siphon was the last thing that I replaced and voila...off flavor was gone. After very closely examining my siphon I could even barely see haze on the inside of the large tube, down at the bottom. The plunger doesn't reach the bottom and I never had a brush that could reach that far so that section never got scrubbed. Buildup ensued from years of use that simple soaking just wouldn't fix...even with oxyclean. At quick glance the tube appeared clean until closely examined under a bright light.

Hope this helps. I felt like an idiot that something so simple caused so many bad batches.

 

[-TH-]

Do you use an autosiphon? Does your plunger reach all the way to the bottom?

I had MANY batches get an unpleasant off flavor that just about had me quit brewing. My siphon was the last thing that I replaced and voila...off flavor was gone. After very closely examining my siphon I could even barely see haze on the inside of the large tube, down at the bottom. The plunger doesn't reach the bottom and I never had a brush that could reach that far so that section never got scrubbed. Buildup ensued from years of use that simple soaking just wouldn't fix...even with oxyclean. At quick glance the tube appeared clean until closely examined under a bright light.

Hope this helps. I felt like an idiot that something so simple caused so many bad batches.

Funny you should mention this because a few nights ago I was verifying in my head that I had eliminated all my equipment as possible causes then it hit me: My auto siphon was the only piece used in every batch (except #1 - I'll explain in a minute). I had eliminated the bottling bucket, wand, spigot, etc by bottling straight from the fermenter a few times, also I replaced the tubing with silicone tubing, but I always used the auto siphon. The only batch I didn't bottle with it was batch #1 which I used the mr. beer keg itself. Interestingly that batch didn't have the off flavor (i don't think) but it was a mr. beer kit that tasted very cidery so who knows.

Regarding a previous post, I always taste along the way and it always shows up AFTER a week or two in the bottle. Used to make me think bottling process but chlorophenols are often not detectable before then regardless of the cause.

 

[fezzman]

Regarding a previous post, I always taste along the way and it always shows up AFTER a week or two in the bottle. Used to make me think bottling process but chlorophenols are often not detectable before then regardless of the cause.

I also used to think it was my bottling process until I started kegging. I had that flavor in two kegs and then I remembered that I still hadn't replaced my siphon. Now I just need to find a bottle brush that is long/skinny enough to reach to the bottom. [/paranoia]

 

[anemic]

by the way, I had a bad gasket on my AS creating aeration & lost-siphon. I replaced it with flyguys $3 DIY tee-siphon. That thing is slick. For me, it works better.

 

[-TH-]

by the way, I had a bad gasket on my AS creating aeration & lost-siphon. I replaced it with flyguys $3 DIY tee-siphon. That thing is slick. For me, it works better.

Thanks for the tip!

Also just noticed you are from GR - hey neighbor!

 

[RedIrocZ-28]

Yeah, anemic, whats up neighbor!

Todd, gone AG yet? using star-san yet?

 

[Joe Camel]

Regarding a previous post, I always taste along the way and it always shows up AFTER a week or two in the bottle. Used to make me think bottling process but chlorophenols are often not detectable before then regardless of the cause.

Why would you think that chlorophenols wouldn't be detectable prior to bottling? If they're there, you'd taste them. If they show up after bottling, I'd bet strongly that it has nothing to do with your brewing process and more to do with the bottling process. Either you're introducing chlorine or wild yeast at this point.

Here's a process of elimination plan

Taste beer when you would normally bottle

Leave in primary two more weeks (assuming taste shows up in bottle is because wild yeast is present but needs two more weeks to manifest)

While racking into bottling bucket, fill one sanitized bottle directly and store (will show if off taste is coming from siphon, not bucket or sugar)

Bottle one after racking but before adding priming sugar (assumes flavour comes from bucket)

bottle rest normally (assumes flavour comes from sugar)

Invite three friends over and give each 2 random samples from the 3 beers and make them write down whether they taste bandaids in each sample.

Compile and compare

 

[-TH-]

Why would you think that chlorophenols wouldn't be detectable prior to bottling? If they're there, you'd taste them. If they show up after bottling, I'd bet strongly that it has nothing to do with your brewing process and more to do with the bottling process. Either you're introducing chlorine or wild yeast at this point.

Here's a process of elimination plan

Taste beer when you would normally bottle

Leave in primary two more weeks (assuming taste shows up in bottle is because wild yeast is present but needs two more weeks to manifest)

While racking into bottling bucket, fill one sanitized bottle directly and store (will show if off taste is coming from siphon, not bucket or sugar)

Bottle one after racking but before adding priming sugar (assumes flavour comes from bucket)

bottle rest normally (assumes flavour comes from sugar)

Invite three friends over and give each 2 random samples from the 3 beers and make them write down whether they taste bandaids in each sample.

Compile and compare

I thought I read somewhere that you can't taste/smell chlorophenols until after some carbonation. But I'm no expert - if I was I would have licked this by now.

Anyway your list of suggestions makes perfect sense, in fact I did exactly those steps and more for batch #9. I split that batch into 4 fermentors, used 2 kinds of yeast, and primed with several different methods: Corn sugar, packaged priming mixture, and carb tabs. Tried boiling the sugar in water, tried putting sugar straight in the bottle. For some bottles I bypassed the bottling bucket/spigot/wand to rule that out. I did every possible combination I could think of. And every frickin single beer had it. But like I mentioned earlier, the one piece of equipment I overlooked and didn't take out of the equation was my autosiphon.

I was thinking about trying my first AG this sat, but I might try one more small test extract batch without the autosiphon first.

 

[anemic]

What's the update from Zeeland, TH?

Hi Iroc!

 

[-TH-]

What's the update from Zeeland, TH?

Hi Iroc!

Cheers! Well I'm excited to say I think I have gotten to the root of the problem. An HBT member, Saccharomyces, graciously offered to sample a few of my beers so I sent him a couple. His response was that he was quite confident I did not have chlorophenols, but instead he detected a harsh astringency and maybe some hop over-utilization. He asked me for a copy of my water report so I sent it to him. This was his response:

I was right, your water is alkaline... Your water is fine for an AG brew (using 5.2 stabilizer), but for extract I would skip your water and go with 100% RO water; that will give you a less harsh hop bitterness, and will get rid of the pronounced mineral aftertaste I'm getting. For a hoppy beer you can add a tsp. of gypsum to the kettle with the RO water which will help up the sulfates and give you a crisper bitterness, but that is optional... For malty/balanced brews straight RO and extract will yield superior results every time!

I was talking with Chris Colby (BYO editor) a few months back about his method for extract/steeping grains. We were discussing your very problem which is very common -- 99% of brewers will get to the level where you are now with extract/steeping grains and think they have to go to AG to make better beer. Fact is you don't, Chris only does AG batches with a brew buddy. He has been doing extract for 20 years and he makes some GREAT beers. Here's the Colby method:

- Start with 1 gallon of Campden treated RO water and 1 tsp of 5.2 pH stabilizer in the kettle. Stir in 1 lb of dry extract while heating to 165*F. At 165*F remove from heat. Drop in the steeping grain bag, tea bag it to get the grains wet and let it sit 30 minutes. Steeping in a small volume with pH stabilizer and extract keeps the pH around 5.2 which will prevent extracting tannins from the grain husks, which is the most common off flavor in extract beers.
- Drop a strainer over the pot and move the grain bag to the strainer. Run your top-off water slowly over the grains to rinse them until you get to your desired boil volume. Stir in 1/3 of the remaining extract for a partial boil, or 2/3 if doing a full volume boil, and bring to a boil. Add your bittering hops.
- With 15 minutes left in the boil, add a whirlfloc tablet, yeast nutrient, and the rest of your extract (do this off the heat so you don't scorch of course!).
- Stir continuously while chilling until the wort drops below 140*F. Chris uses an immersion chiller in his sink and then moves to an ice bath until he gets down to pitching temp. I already gave you my method, while more hands-on it works too.

Give his method a try and I think you'll be amazed at the results.

I am extremely gratefull to him for his help and I plan on trying this method soon. As of right now, I did an AG batch 4 weeks ago that needs to be bottled soon and I also did one small test extract batch w/o steeping on that day as well.

I'm optimistic.

 

[RedIrocZ-28]

Todd, glad that its figured out!

Get to brewin!

anemic, what part of GR you from?

 

[anemic]

NE GR
Northview
right near Robinette's
I see you are looking for a place. "great time to buy" as the signs say.
I used to run past a Red IrocZ on Leffingwell NE, but I thought you were SW?

I hope it 'boils down' to a water problem with an easy fix TH. That sure was complex!

 

[RedIrocZ-28]

That was me in the Red Iroc if you saw me when I was there, the Red 95 Z28 was my buddy's car, who used to live there.

Todd, any news to report?

 

[-TH-]

Batch #10 is been in bottles for 2 weeks. I sampled one monday and other than being a tad bit green, it was free from the off flavor and tasted quite good. I'm stoked. Batch #11 and 12 (one being my first AG) went into bottles a couple days ago. Those are the ones I'm really eager to try.

 

[jescholler]

Any update TH? I have a problem that sounds close to what you were having. I get an unpleasant bitterness about 2 seconds after I swallow. Here's my thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/help-taste-troubleshooting-127428/#post1424752

 

[EvilBrewer]

Batch #10 is been in bottles for 2 weeks. I sampled one monday and other than being a tad bit green, it was free from the off flavor and tasted quite good. I'm stoked. Batch #11 and 12 (one being my first AG) went into bottles a couple days ago. Those are the ones I'm really eager to try.

Hey, TH...found this thread cuz I'm having a similar problem. I'm an all-grain brewer so hopefully switching to AG didn't solve your issue! (though I do hope you were able to correct the problem somehow).

Anyway, reading through this post was like reading a novel with the last pages missing! You still around??

I'd really like to hear if you figured it out. Thanks.

EDIT: I should note that I only get this problem when using 001/1056 strain of yeast with "C" hops--namely Cascade and Centennial. These things are a staple for APA's, which are my favorite category. So, you can understand my frustration!

 

[-TH-]

Well this novel has a happy ending...

Batches #13 and 14 (both AG) were bad. In fact, batch 14 was so bad, the solution hit me like a ton of bricks. I had dry hopped using a nylon bag that I had soaked in sanitizer just minutes before placing in the fermentor. And its the same sanitizer I had been using since bottling batch #2 - which was: iodophor. And not just any iodophor, I'm talking the farm supply store variety kind that I had found out about right here on HBT to use as a cheap sanitizer. I had already double-checked my math to make sure my concentration wasn't too high and that checked out. So I knew I had to try something else all together. I immediately went to my LHBS to pick up some Starsan to bottle batch #15. BINGO, off flavor gone. I've brewed 7 batches since, not one has had a trace of the off flavor.

The end.

Not sure if that helps your situation...I can only say hang in there!

 

[EvilBrewer]

Well this novel has a happy ending...

Batches #13 and 14 (both AG) were bad. In fact, batch 14 was so bad, the solution hit me like a ton of bricks. I had dry hopped using a nylon bag that I had soaked in sanitizer just minutes before placing in the fermentor. And its the same sanitizer I had been using since bottling batch #2 - which was: iodophor. And not just any iodophor, I'm talking the farm supply store variety kind that I had found out about right here on HBT to use as a cheap sanitizer. I had already double-checked my math to make sure my concentration wasn't too high and that checked out. So I knew I had to try something else all together. I immediately went to my LHBS to pick up some Starsan to bottle batch #15. BINGO, off flavor gone. I've brewed 7 batches since, not one has had a trace of the off flavor.

The end.

Not sure if that helps your situation...I can only say hang in there!

I'm glad it worked out for you!

I use Starsan already, so it's obviously not the same issue for me. The problem I'm experiencing is an overly bitter aftertaste that I get EVERY time I make an APA with Centennial or Cascade hops and 1056/001 yeast. I can barely drink it; tastes like grapefruit rind...completely overshadows the malt or any other flavors for that matter. I've made blonde's, english pale ales, browns, wheat beers, etc, that turned out fine.

I'm thinking hops overutilization, maybe...if anything pops in your mind, please pass it along. I can tell that you KNOW how frustrating this can be!!

Thanks.

 

[-TH-]

Can you give me an example recipe?
Also, what kind of water are you using? Do you have a water analysis?