2 Vessel System Efficiency Issue

[Figgy15]

Hello my fellow brewers!!!!

Hoping for some guidance. I recently changed my brewing system and went with a single tier, 2 vessel (1 HLT/Boil with heating element, 1 Mash Tun, 1 pump) DIY electric system. It's very similar to the one used in this video:

.

In doing my research, I did see that because there is no sparge and just a 60 min recirculating mash, that my efficiency could take a hit. What I find interesting is that in my 3 sessions so far, I have had a difference of -.005 points, -.010 points, and most recently -.006 points in my OG when compared to beersmith. I did setup my equipment in beersmith to calculate my water losses but don't know if i need to do anything else to help with proper efficient target. I read somewhere (believe here) that I should "cut the grain" every 15 mins during the mash to make sure that channeling isn't happening...that this would greatly help my efficiency. I have done that on all 3 batches. The crushing of the grains have all been done on the same mill. I always store my grains at the same temp before i use them. I have also added an extra 1-1.5 lbs of the base grain to "compensate" for the expected loss in efficiency.

So I guess I'm hoping to get some tricks and tips from anyone that might be using the same type of system or just has way more knowledge then me on how, if at all possible, to increase my efficiency.

Thank you all for your advice!

 

[swimIan]

Crush relatively more fine, check/adjust ph, adjust crush

Stirring may help a little but not as much as the other two

 

[swimIan]

I get 69ish on a 2 vessel full volume. I’d like 75 but I’ll work up to it over time.

 

[Figgy15]

Do you have any ideas on how to achieve that?

 

[Genuine]

This is the system I use and we’ve been getting 74-75% brewhouse efficiency consistently. I usually double crush my grains. I found. That stirring the mash before bringing it to mash out temps helps a ton.

 

[Figgy15]

Huh...first very nice looking systems. Second, I've never thought about mashing out. Is it that important? At what temp?

 

[Figgy15]

And don't you worry about extracting tannins by crushing the grains that fine?

 

[swimIan]

Do you have any ideas on how to achieve that?

I’m gonna go with a slightly finer crush soon. I’m at .04 inches. Thinking I’ll try .038 first. I adjust pH already and stir a little bit.

 

[Genuine]

Huh...first very nice looking systems. Second, I've never thought about mashing out. Is it that important? At what temp?

I mash out at 168 degrees for 10 min or so before draining to the kettle. However I check the mash temp with an instant read thermometer because it takes some time for the mash bed to actually get to 168 degrees. So after 5 min of my controller PID saying it’s at 168, I’ll check and start 10 min from there.

Here’s a couple videos of mine:

 

[augiedoggy]

I'll share what works for me, I have a 3 vessel system with a rims but recirculate and use a 1.030 crush (used a credit card to adjust mill). I use small dc pumps and have them on speed controllers so I can start them off at a very low speed (like 1gpm) and then after the first few minutes I slowly turn them up to full power which brings the flow speed up to between 1.5-1.8gpm depending on mash size and consistency. I recirculate in an uninsulate mash tun and the rims doesnt run all that much to maintain steady mash temps so the higher flow is totally unneeded, the benefit to the lower flow is there is much less chance of channeling as well as stuck mashes. I used to not do a mashout until recently but found it did increase my efficiency so I now do it... I average about 89% without the mashout and 91% efficiency with it. this is pretty consistent too. I noticed a large jump in efficiency when I slowed my fly sparge process time down to take a full 20 mins or so

I do not stir or touch my grainbed after the doughin process... this just disturbs the grainbed and increases the chances of a stuck flow situation IMO but this would depend on the setup I guess. I see no point if the recirulation technique is working correctly without channeling. I think most people try to push the flow too high causing thier own problems.

I use a flowmeter like this to see whats going on with / monitor my mash flow rate...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Dwyer-Polycarbonate-Flowmeter-LFMC-08-A2-0-5-5-GPM-water-1-2-MN-LFM-NIB/152808792842?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I'll share what works for me, I have a 3 vessel system with a rims but recirculate and use a 1.030 crush (used a credit card to adjust mill). I use small dc pumps and have them on speed controllers so I can start them off at a very low speed (like 1gpm) and then after the first few minutes I slowly turn them up to full power which brings the flow speed up to between 1.5-1.8gpm depending on mash size and consistency. I recirculate in an uninsulate mash tun and the rims doesnt run all that much to maintain steady mash temps so the higher flow is totally unneeded, the benefit to the lower flow is there is much less chance of channeling as well as stuck mashes. I used to not do a mashout until recently but found it did increase my efficiency so I now do it... I average about 89% without the mashout and 91% efficiency with it. this is pretty consistent too. I noticed a large jump in efficiency when I slowed my fly sparge process time down to take a full 20 mins or so

I do not stir or touch my grainbed after the doughin process... this just disturbs the grainbed and increases the chances of a stuck flow situation IMO but this would depend on the setup I guess. I see no point if the recirulation technique is working correctly without channeling. I think most people try to push the flow too high causing thier own problems.

I use a flowmeter like this to see whats going on with / monitor my mash flow rate...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Dwyer-Polycarbonate-Flowmeter-LFMC-08-A2-0-5-5-GPM-water-1-2-MN-LFM-NIB/152808792842?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I'm not sure your process with a 3 vessel system and fly sparge is much use to the OP who's using a no sparge 2 vessel kettle RIMS system.

 

[bjhbrew]

I may be way off base here so please correct me if I'm wrong but I think with a two vessel system that the OP describes the issue lies more in the lauter efficiency. Since your not sparging whatever grain absorption you have is a loss of concentrated sugary wort, the same concentration as what made it into the boil kettle. With a batch sparge or fly sparge there is still wort left in the grains but at least it has been flushed out and diluted so not such a loss. When I switched to a 2 vessel setup (very similar to the one described above) I decided to also use a mesh bag in the mash tun at the end of my 60 minute recirculated mash I simply squeeze it out and attain an overall efficiency of about 80%

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm not sure your process with a 3 vessel system and fly sparge is much use to the OP who's using a no sparge 2 vessel kettle RIMS system.

Hes asking why his efficiency is poor.... having a good understanding of what type of processes work better and what comprising gives up on can help him decide what he might want to change with his system depending on how important his goal of more efficiency is. My recirculation comments completely apply to his system and thats likely where most of his efficiency issues (that he can address without sparging anyway) lie, If he can imrove the efficiency of his recirculation to allow more even disolving and extraction of starches to sugar thats something that will help him.
and not everyone realizes that you take a large hit on efficiency if you really dont sparge because you leave a lot of sugars behind. squeezing will help but its just like cleaning a paint roller after painting, rinsing is going to get a lot more paint out of it than just squeezing..

 

[Figgy15]

Thank you all so much for the responses! So I thought about using a bag in the mash but then had to add a pulley system to lift it and blah blah...didn't want to go through that lol. I like the idea of mashing out...can def. do that easy enough with an electric setup. The re-crushing of crushed grains worries me a bit cause of possible tannin extraction. Augiedoggy...I'm guessing i could restrict the flow of incoming wort into the mash tun a bit at the beginning of my recirculation correct? And stupid question but how does mashing out help?

 

[doug293cz]

... And stupid question but how does mashing out help?

The primary effect of a mash out, with respect to efficiency, is to supercharge the saccharification rate until the amylase enzymes are completely denatured (enzymes work faster at higher temps) and to extend the mash time a little bit. The effect is to achieve more complete conversion of starch to sugar, if your conversion was incomplete at the end of your mash time. If your conversion was complete at the end of your mash time, then a mash out will not do anything for efficiency.

Brew on

 

[Genuine]

The primary effect of a mash out, with respect to efficiency, is to supercharge the saccharification rate until the amylase enzymes are completely denatured (enzymes work faster at higher temps) and to extend the mash time a little bit. The effect is to achieve more complete conversion of starch to sugar, if your conversion was incomplete at the end of your mash time. If your conversion was complete at the end of your mash time, then a mash out will not do anything for efficiency.

Brew on

Well now that's interesting. Maybe that can help cut time on my brew day.

 

[Mybuddypete]

The re-crushing of crushed grains worries me a bit cause of possible tannin extraction.

Crush does not affect tannin extraction. I have BIAB brewed with grains crushed to almost the fineness of flour and did not have an issue of tannins.

Tannin extraction happens when your sparge water is alkaline. IF the pH of your sparge water (at sparge water temps) is over 6pH* You will extract excessive tannins and have unpleasant astringency. It's not from oversparging or from squeezing the BIAB bag.

*Edit: Changed "6.9" to "6".

Also, 1ml-2ml of 88% Lactic acid per 5gal in RO/Distilled water reduces pH into guaranteed safe ranges for sparging.

 

[Figgy15]

Crush does not affect tannin extraction. I have BIAB brewed with grains crushed to almost the fineness of flour and did not have an issue of tannins.

Tannin extraction happens when your sparge water is alkaline. IF the pH of your sparge water (at sparge water temps) is over 6pH* You will extract excessive tannins and have unpleasant astringency. It's not from oversparging or from squeezing the BIAB bag.

*Edit: Changed "6.9" to "6".

Also, 1ml-2ml of 88% Lactic acid in RO/Distilled water reduces pH into guaranteed safe ranges for sparging.

That's great information. Thank you for that.

 

[BrunDog]

My understanding from Martin is you don’t need to acidity RO water for sparging as it has no buffering to start with.

 

[Mybuddypete]

My understanding from Martin is you don’t need to acidity RO water for sparging as it has no buffering to start with.

That's true. But not all RO is zero TDS. My system consistently tests at 8-11TDS. From my perspective it's safer to add a ml of acid to ensure it's 100% safe for sparging. It takes only a minute and costs maybe a penny or two.

 

[augiedoggy]

That's true. But not all RO is zero TDS. My system consistently tests at 8-11TDS. From my perspective it's safer to add a ml of acid to ensure it's 100% safe for sparging. It takes only a minute and costs maybe a penny or two.

Not for those who dont have a HLT. Where do you mix the acid in this system described in this thread if you already filling one vessel as a BK while sparging?

 

[Mybuddypete]

Not for those who dont have a HLT. Where do you mix the acid in this system described in this thread if you already filling one vessel as a BK while sparging?

Obviously in a “no sparge” system it’s not an issue.

I was addressing OPs concern that grain crush causes tannin extraction.

 

[BrunDog]

Legit discussion. I have a liquor tank that isn’t accessible between strike fill and sparging so I don’t bother. It’s RO water so I haven’t sweated it, but probably true that a few ml of acid would only help defend against possible elevated sparge pH.

 

[augiedoggy]

Brundog, your system is what I was thinking about when commenting.(although I was unsure if you sparge)
My RO water sitill has a ph of 7. Its almost 8 out of the tap and Ive noticed though that it only takes a drop or two of lactic acid to bring the ph of the ro down vs much more acid to drop it in tap water.

I dont no how you No sparge guys do it honestly... seems like you would need more than an extra pound or 2 of grain to make that up.

 

[augiedoggy]

Obviously in a “no sparge” system it’s not an issue.

good point, theres lots of threads on here, I sometimes forget certian things that are mentioned. I saw sparging ph being discussed and made the mistake of assuming.

 

[Figgy15]

When using tap water (Albuquerque) I’ve had to use up to 10 ml of Lactic acid to bring down my pH. It’s very hard water here. And yes augiedoggy... ive read that some Brewers with a no sparge system add around an extra 2 pounds of base malt to compensate. But I love my 4 hour brew days!!!!

 

[doug293cz]

...

I dont no how you No sparge guys do it honestly... seems like you would need more than an extra pound or 2 of grain to make that up.

Mash efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency. BIAB takes a hit on lauter efficiency (leaves more sugar in the spent grain) than sparging does, but some of this can be made up by reducing the grain absorption rate (i.e. squeezing.) Also, BIAB can utilize a much finer crush than a traditional MLT, which in many cases will lead to higher conversion efficiency. So, depending on actual process conditions, BIAB may, or may not, have lower mash efficiency than a sparged process. Many BIABers get mash efficiencies in the 85% range for "normal" OG beers.

Brew on