100 billions to 1000 billions cells

[RasMouSein]

Like title said, how would you go to grow from a vial of 100 billion cells to 1000 billions cells (1092 in fact)
Be specific please
I do need to do a starter. when doing starter does second and third step have to be double the size each time ?
and is it true it's max 1.040 for the wort ?

Thank for your time people !!

 

[MMP126]

100 billion to 1 trillion cells is a bunch. You fermenting like 1bbl?

Yeah, you need to step it up kind of slowly. 1.040 is the baseline for the max. for a starter, but I have taken it to 1.045 before. But not past that. I have no experience with making a higher gravity starter.

Google 'brewunited yeast starter calculator" this should get you where you need.

Looks like a 2 step would be good. 2L, 5L

 

[Vale71]

Forget about it. A 10X increase is way too much to achieve with simple means which I'm assuming is what you have at your disposal.

 

[MMP126]

Forget about it. A 10X increase is way too much to achieve with simple means which I'm assuming is what you have at your disposal.

No, I think he can get there. I made some assumptions, and used some pretty old ass yeast. 2L starter with 245g DME, decant, and add that to a 5000ml flask with 475g (or so, I didnt do the math) of DME.

 

[RasMouSein]

[EDITED for clarity: Inline answers inside quote -mod]

100 billion to 1 trillion cells is a bunch. You fermenting like 1bbl?
Yeah, half barrel Lager

Yeah, you need to step it up kind of slowly. 1.040 is the baseline for the max. for a starter, but I have taken it to 1.045 before. But not past that. I have no experience with making a higher gravity starter.

Google 'brewunited yeast starter calculator" this should get you where you need.
Thanks !! that's a great calculator !"
I used the Brewers Friend one, and was having trouble figuring out second and third step, but your calculator decide for me !!

Looks like a 2 step would be good. 2L, 5L

 

[RasMouSein]

Forget about it. A 10X increase is way too much to achieve with simple means which I'm assuming is what you have at your disposal.

LoL !! Alright then !!!

 

[RasMouSein]

No, I think he can get there. I made some assumptions, and used some pretty old ass yeast. 2L starter with 245g DME, decant, and add that to a 5000ml flask with 475g (or so, I didnt do the math) of DME.

View attachment 677874

Yeah it looks like the trick will be the 1.045 wort

 

[MMP126]

Eh, not really. You could probably still do it with the 1.040 gravity starter wort, but 1.045 will be fine. Thats not too much of a difference. The 2 steps are what is important. Dont overstress your yeast.

Play with the brewunited calculator, and make sure you have your plan laid out.

Best of luck!

 

[Vale71]

That yeast calculator appears to be quite optimistic IMHO.
For a 5L final starter size agitation and ideally continuous aeration are a MUST or you won't in the least even come close to those numbers and even in that case I'd start with two packs as actual viability is always a big question mark. In any case since it appears you're going to ferment at least 1BBL of beer that second pack is certainly not going to break the bank.

 

[IslandLizard]

Eh, not really. You could probably still do it with the 1.040 gravity starter wort, but 1.045 will be fine. Thats not too much of a difference. The 2 steps are what is important. Dont overstress your yeast.

Play with the brewunited calculator, and make sure you have your plan laid out.

Best of luck!

That ^
I'd do the first step with 1.037 (which is actually the recommended starter gravity) or 1.040 wort. That's the most critical, especially when the yeast pack isn't all that fresh. The 2nd with 1.045 is fine.

If you do these routinely, it may be easier or more practical to brew a smaller batch say 5 gallons, and reuse the yeast cake for the larger batch.
Yeast tends to grow 4-5x in numbers during fermentation.

 

[MMP126]

That yeast calculator appears to be quite optimistic IMHO.
For a 5L final starter size agitation and ideally continuous aeration are a MUST or you won't in the least even come close to those numbers and even in that case I'd start with two packs as actual viability is always a big question mark. In any case since it appears you're going to ferment at least 1BBL of beer that second pack is certainly not going to break the bank.

Yeah, you could go the additional smack pack route to get there, but I would imagine that would be more expensive than making 2 starters. But, I didn't do the math. But, he would need like 10, so $70-80 for the yeast. Which is a lot for a homebrew.

I did assume that he has a stir plate, and a 2L and 5L flask. If not, then quick and dirty would be to get a bunch of smack packs.

 

[IslandLizard]

I did assume that he has a stir plate, and a 2L and 5L flask. If not, then quick and dirty would be to get a bunch of smack packs.

Yeah, making starters is definitely no luxury. Most "fresh" pack from an LHBS or online order are on average 2-4 months old. Plus no-one knows how they've been handled.
For those $70 you can buy a stir plate, or build 2 or 3.

There is also the "shaken-not-stirred" method of making starters, but for this amount, he'd need 4-5 1-gallon jugs.

Since I had the fortune of being given 2 (decommissioned) lab-grade orbital shakers, I've used gallon jugs for making larger starters. Like the one for an 11 gallon 1.080 DIPA batch, pitching 1" of thick yeast slurry from the jug.

 

[RasMouSein]

Ayayaye !! That tuff to get 1000 billions cells eh !!
Maybe I'll just do a double batch instead of a triple, seems more achievable !!

I do not have a stir plate, but I do have some kind of glass vessel that resemblance a flask.
Thanks for shimming in.

 

[VikeMan]

For those $70 you can buy a stir plate, or build 2 or 3.

$42 (two for $75) from the StirStarters guy. With a lifetime warranty.

 

[smata67]

Make a 5G batch of any brew to your liking with that vial, ABV of 7% more or less. Resulting yeast cake will be about 1K billion.

 

[IslandLizard]

Make a 5G batch of any brew to your liking with that vial, ABV of 7% more or less. Resulting yeast cake will be about 1K billion.

Although some packs contain 150 or 200 billion cells at packaging, most "vials" or packs only contain 100 billion cells at that time. Age reduces viability from there on. Even when using a fresh week-old pack, 100 billion viable cells is not or barely enough for a 5 gallon 1.050 ale pitch, definitely not enough for Lagers or hybrids or a 7% beer.
Starters are always recommended when using liquid yeast as they first prove viability, aside from ramping up cell count.

A batch pitch rarely replicates more than 4-5 times, due to oxygen restrictions. So even a fresh 100 billion cell pitch won't give you more than 500 billion in the end. But you're halfway there to a trillion.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I’d do 2 step starter, chill, decant. Morning of brew day, I would put in a gallon jug and and get a rocking vitality starter humming. Pitch it and call it good.

 

[RasMouSein]

I’d do 2 step starter, chill, decant. Morning of brew day, I would put in a gallon jug and and get a rocking vitality starter humming. Pitch it and call it good.

Thanks !!
Yeah, it looks like I'll be doing a 2L and 5L starter... in 1.040
I like the idea of a vitality starter !!
Just use wort before the hops is added ?
How much would you suggest ?

 

[Dog House Brew]

I’d make a small starter wort brew day, say 700ml. Be fast and easy to chill that small amount. The yeast will be going when time to pitch. Aerate it well, pitch the whole thing in your batch.