Water Profile for Pilsners

I am in the process of planning for an all-grain Pilsner in late January after I get my current lager out of the fridge. One of the main stumbling blocks I am encountering in my limited knowledge and experience with lagers is how to deal with the water which would be used for the Pilsner style.

I am NOT looking to make a BMC clone here, more something along the lines of a traditional German Pilsner (leaning towards) or a Classic American Pilsner (leaning away). I'm looking for a soft-but-complex body with fragrant-yet-mellow hop profile. In reading abut many Pilsners and lighter lager-style beers, it seems that the water plays perhaps a bigger role in the end flavor that it would in an ale, porter or stout. It is also my understanding that most German and Bohemian Pilsners start with really, really soft water.

For ales, I have found that charcoal-filtered tap is absolutely fine. As far as comparing it to a defined style goes I'd put it around a London-type profile with high levels of sodium and chloride. With this in mind, would it be preferred to use distilled or RO water and treat it to fit the applicable profile? If so, what would be recomended additives to treat for a 5-gal batch?

Any advice would be appreciated! Also, any side advice on an AG recipe choice for a German, Bohemian or Classis American Pilsner would be welcome!!!

For the record, this is the recipe I'm currently sitting on...any critiques?

6 lbs.Weyermann Pilsner malt
1 1/2 lbs.Weyermann Vienna malt
1/2 lb. Briess Munich malt
1 lb. Briess Carapils malt

3/4 oz. German Hallertauer Tradition
1/2 oz. Organic German Hallertauer Mittlefrueh pellet
1 oz. Organic German Hallertauer Mittlefrueh whole

WLP800 German Pilsner yeast

This (I think) should hit about 33 IBU's and a 1048-1054 OG.Mostl likely going single step mash around 152.

The water profile for Pilsen is something like this (ppm): Ca:7, SO4: 6, Mg: 2-8, Na: 32, Cl: 5

So you'd probably be best starting from scratch and using RO water with no ions in it at all, and then doing minor adjustments with Gypsum, CaCl, Epsom salts, common salt or whatever. Programs like BreWater can help with this. Or, I suspect untreated spring water would be fine, too.

Then the big issue is mash acidification, due to the lack of calcium to react in the mash. The easy route is to get some of that 5.2ph stabiliser and treat your mash and sparge water. However, if you're wating to do a Reinhesgebot (sp?) Pils then you'll probably want to use a small amount of acid malt. I'd be happy to help with recipes but first decide whether you're going for Bohemian Pilsner or German Pilsner, i'm no use on CAP.

Edit: As for the recipe you've posted, I can't fault it. I've never tried Mittlefrueh but they're supposed to be the best noble hops, right? My favourite lager yeast is WLP802 Czech Budejovice, for any lager. Also German pilsner is a drier style, you might want to cut out the CaraPils.

Oh another thing, I take it you're adding all of those hops at the beginning of the boil? Pilsner should have good hop flavour and aroma, so I'd consider upping the initial bittering addition and doing one at 15 minutes, and another at the end.

My R/O water actually is almost Pilsner water w/o any modifications necessary. This is because R/O is not removing all the ions from the water but in the order of 90-95%. But even if you threat R/O water like distilled water and aim for the pilsner water profile (Beersmith or ProMash will be of help) you shouldn't be way off the mark. But measure the PH and keep acid malt at hand. With water that has a residual alkalinity of almost 0 (which pilsner water should have) it takes 1% of acid malt to lower the pH by 0.1 (source Weyermann).

Make sure you hold a protein rest with the pilsner malt. I'm using the same malt (maybe not the same lot though) and my mashing schedule currently looks like this:

53 *C for 20 min (hot water infusion)
66.5 *C for 60 min (hot water infusion)
75 *C for 10 min (decoction b/c my mash-tun is full)

I have used the Pilsner in a single infusion mash once (2 mo ago) and the beer has yet to clear.

With a Pilsner, or any lighter German beer, you want to mash thin. This means 3.5 - 4.0 L/kg for the saccrifcation rest. The result of this will be less sparge water and thus less tannin extraction from the husks. It also makes hitting the temp easy since you can easily stir the mash after you added some boiling water and see if you are already there yet.

Though I haven't made a Pilsner yet, it will be next after my Doppelbock, I'm not sure if Halletauer is a good choice for a Pilsner. It seems more suited for a bavarian style beer (Helles, Dunkel, Bock...). And maybe I'm just biased since I suspect a 1lb bag of Hallertauer Mittelfrueh to be part of the rescent problems with my beers. I would use Tettnang and/or Saaz. A recipe that I found in a German home brewing book calls for Tettnang as aroma hop and Magnum or Taurus as bittering hop.

Kai

I think your on the right track - and as mysterio pointed out with the water profile.

And yes, go with the distilled or RO water.

Kai, I dont live in the US so I don't know what Pilsner malt is like over there but is there really any need for a protein rest?

The stuff we get from Germany is already fully modified and so is most malt available to homebrewers, unless you're getting hold of some under-modified moravian malt or something.

I agree on the hop choices, my German Pilsner would go something along the lines of Spalt, Tettnang & Saaz.

mysterio said:

Kai, I dont live in the US so I don't know what Pilsner malt is like over there but is there really any need for a protein rest?

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I'm using Weyermann Pilsner malt. Since I have a bag of that at home and wanted to brew a Pale Ale w/o having to go and buy pale malt, I used the Pilsner instead. It was my standard single infusion mash and I noticed that the beer never cleared up even though it has been fermented with 1056 which produces fairly clear beer. And this was 2 months ago. I also made a Helles will the same malt using a 20 min rest at 53*C and it cleared up very nicely in the bottle. I filled a few bottles with the Helles before I dumped it out to see how it progresses. Also, these bottles were never brought below 50*C.

My explanation for this is, that you need a protein rest with the Weyermann Pilsner malt. Since it is already fairly well modified I do the rest on the warmer side (53 - 54 C) to emphasize the creation of medium chained proteins.

Kai

Thanks for the replies. I've got to digest some of the details w/ further reading. However, a few things that could be addressed off the bat.

I was not necessarily thinking of throwing all the hops in for the full duration of the boil, mysterio. I was thinking of the more standard 40/15/5 (in order typed). Do you think this schedule would result in a beer w/o the necessary hop profile?

I'm definitely going for a German Pilsner at this point. Bohemian later.......

Also, regarding acid malt, is it's addition/usage as simple as throwing some into the mash if PH is testing high? Is there more detail or prep to the process? I've never used acid malt.....it seems like a nice bag-of-tricks type piece of knowledge.

Kai - You said that your RO removes 90-95% of the ions in your water. Is this typical for your setup or typical to the general process used by most everyone? I live downstairs from an 'aquarium guy' who has a setup to make RO piped into his kitchen sink. I'm sure he could give me details of his setup/resulting water but is it safe to assume he is pumping out similar water to yours? Also, is using RO universally agreed to as 'better' than using distilled? What are the primary +'s/-'s of each?

Also, I am going to go through with the protien rests. In a way is good exercise as I still do almost all mashing in a single step - this seems like a good opportunity to experiment with a multi.

Again, great info in the replies. I've got some pilsner-homework to do and I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.

Fiery Sword said:

It is also my understanding that most German and Bohemian Pilsners start with really, really soft water.

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For Bohemian Pilseners and Bavarian Helles, yes- but not for German Pils. Most German styles actually use quite 'hard' water, coming close to some Burton Ales from the UK.

Look up the water characteristics for Dortmund to see what I mean. Try a bottle of DAB next to a Czechvar to appreciate the difference in the water.

Mikey said:

For Bohemian Pilseners and Bavarian Helles, yes- but not for German Pils. Most German styles actually use quite 'hard' water, coming close to some Burton Ales from the UK.

Look up the water characteristics for Dortmund to see what I mean. Try a bottle of DAB next to a Czechvar to appreciate the difference in the water.

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This is interesting. I was not aware of the extremes between Pilzen and Dortmund waters. That being said, the German Pilsners seem to be described as a bit drier, perhaps more hoppy, and are able to be made with water of medium sulfur content. Bohemians, however, would be where you really want the very low-sulfur water to accentuate a soft hop profile and a slightly richer maltiness? If this understanding accurate?

In a way, this makes me lean more towards a Bohmian Pilsner. Regarding the above posted recipe, would the malt bill still be applicable? Perhaps moreso, especially with the carapils? Would another adjustment to move towards a Bohemian be to rely more on Saaz than Hallertauer? Perhaps this jives with your initial reaction, kaiser?

Fiery Sword said:

If this understanding accurate?

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Pretty good summary. I've never cared for Northern German Pils because of their steely/harsh/bitter taste profile, and was more than disappointed with many beers from that area when living and travelling there. There was/is a beer speciality shop in Berlin that actually sold nothing but 'imported' beer from Bavaria for those that didn't like the local offerings. Almost double the price, but worth it!

If you're trying to do a true Pilsener, there's no real need for specialty malts like Vienna or Munich. My house brew is 100% pils malt (presently using a bag of Cargil) and I'll throw in some carapils if I have it.

I've done pure infusion mashes as well as double and triple decoction mashes and can't say if the differences noted were normal batch variations or purely due to technique. My temptation is to say that step mashing or decoction is unnecessary and not worth the trouble.

WRT to hopping, use 100% Saaz if you want to be authentic for a Pilsener, or a German noble hop if you prefer a maltier lighter Helles.

There's lots of flexibility when it comes to how-much-when, again using commercial beers as an example, compare a Urquell to a Staropramen to a Budvar. All are 'correct and accurate' examples of the style.

Fiery Sword said:

I was not necessarily thinking of throwing all the hops in for the full duration of the boil, mysterio. I was thinking of the more standard 40/15/5 (in order typed). Do you think this schedule would result in a beer w/o the necessary hop profile?

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That's fine, but I doubt very much that 3/4 ounce of Hallertau will give you the IBUs you're looking for as it is a low AA hop.

Like Mikey says I would say go for a Bohemian Pils with 100% Saaz and 100% base malt with RO water. With acid malt, i can't really give any hard advice apart from start out with 3-5%, test ph, and if it's too high, add more.

If you're doing homework, the best reading i've done is Ray Daniels' "Designing Great Beers", this has great chapters on formulating recipes for many beer styles including Pilsner.

mysterio said:

If you're doing homework, the best reading i've done is Ray Daniels' "Designing Great Beers", this has great chapters on formulating recipes for many beer styles including Pilsner.

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Dammit I've been wanting to buy that book for months now and somehow I haven't. I've even held it in my hands at my LHBS and somehow talked myself out of it. I'd haul up there tomorrow morning but I'm on SWMBO family airport pickup duty. bAh!!!!!!

I'm sure many on here would agree that it's simply the best book you can buy on brewing at any level. I actually keep it next to me while i'm brewing

Yes, Dortmunder water is relatively hard, but the Dortmunder brewers have always been forerunners in water treatment. In order to brew a light beer you need a low residual alkalinity. This you will automatically get with the Pilsner water profile. Otherwise you may have to add to much Calcium and/or acid. Read the water chapter on howtobrew.com if you haven't already.

R/O water is simply cheaper than distilled water and it is very close to be distilled so brewes like to use this as a base if they can and want to mess with the water.

The acid malt can simply be added to the mash. Make sure you stir well before taking the next reading.

Another advantage of having a lower temp rest when mashing is that you can slowly increase the mash temp with hot water infusions making it easier to hit your target saccrification rest temp.

Kai

OK So time has come to really crunch the numbers as I am going to get the pilsner going next weekend. I've played with the recipe a bit, mostly due to my LHBS inability to keep a comprehensive, well-identified selection of ingredients available. For example, they only has "hallertauer" hops. No further designation. SO, as opposed to knowing exactly what I'm going in with, I am unable to specifically use the Hallertauer Tradition and Mittlefrueh that I wanted to. I knew I should have ordered it over the net last week! Procrastination strikes again!

Regardless, here is the modified recipe. I have a few questions at the end so hopefully a few of you are still tuned in to this <old> thread.

Style - BJCP 02-B Bohemian Pilsner
Expected SG 1.048
Expected IBU's 30.2

7lbs. Weyermann Pilsner
1.5lbs. Weyermann Vienna

1 oz. Hallertauer pellets - 4.7% - 60 min.
1 oz. Hallertauer plugs - 4.6% - 15 min.
1/2 oz. New Zealand Hallertauer whole - 7.7% - 5 min.

WLP800 Pilsner Lager
Extimated FG 1.008-1.014
Expected ABV 5.2%

Mash schedule - for 4 gallons (thin - about 2 quarts per pound):
Dough-In @ 104F - 20 min
Protein Rest @ 127F - 20 min
Saccharification @ 151F - 60 min
**Kaiser mystery rest @ 167F - 10 min**
Sparge out @ 170F

QUESTIONS:
1) Kaiser, I can't figure out what the mystery rest is for. You mentioned it (and that you were using it via decoction because you mashtun was full) but I can't place what it is for and what it does. Some insight would be greatly appreciated!

2) I've read (Palmer, primarily) that a protien rest is not needed w/ modified grains. He actually makes it sound like it could do more harm that help. I'm not buying this - or I'm not understanding it. The majority of my reading leads me to believe that the protein rest is key here for clarity and head retention. This jives with what Kaiser also said. Any thoughts?

3) I'm also a little in the dark on how mashing thin is going to alter my sparge volume. Should I just shoot to sparge up to my desired pre-boil wort volume? I know the sparge will be less than usual, I'm just having a little trouble determining what it should specificly be.

Thanks for any critiques and thoughts! Oh yea and sorry for the non-celcius temps. Meez still stuck in the past. Peace all....

I'm pretty sure that "Kai's Mystery Rest" is just his mashout temp. Since his tun is full he pulls a thin decoction (basically runoff without worry about recirculating the grain husks and particulates that come out), boils it, and then returns it to the tun until he gets to ~167F.

Looks like a good recipe and schedule to me!

Fiery Sword said:

1) Kaiser, I can't figure out what the mystery rest is for. You mentioned it (and that you were using it via decoction because you mashtun was full) but I can't place what it is for and what it does. Some insight would be greatly appreciated!

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You will be fine w/o a rest between saccrification and mash-out. Sometimes there is another saccrification rest if the first saccrification rest was chosen closer to 140F. In this case you want to hold another rest closer to 160F in order to make sure that conversion completes. But this is not necessary if you work with a combined alpha and beta amylase rest which you plan to do. I go from there to mash-out.

2) I've read (Palmer, primarily) that a protien rest is not needed w/ modified grains. He actually makes it sound like it could do more harm that help. I'm not buying this - or I'm not understanding it. The majority of my reading leads me to believe that the protein rest is key here for clarity and head retention. This jives with what Kaiser also said. Any thoughts?

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With todays malts you have to be careful in not overdoing the protein rest. But I do believe that the Weyermann Pilsner needs a protein rest to prevent haze in the beer. But since it is fairly well modified I choose the protein rest closer to 130F which emphasizes on the medium length proteins.
If you were to use American or British 2 row I would dough in after the protein rest since you can indeed do harm with a Protein rest since it may break down to much of the protein leading to poor head retention and less body.

3) I'm also a little in the dark on how mashing thin is going to alter my sparge volume. Should I just shoot to sparge up to my desired pre-boil wort volume? I know the sparge will be less than usual, I'm just having a little trouble determining what it should specificly be.

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Just aim for the same pre-boil volume as usual. Though the efficiency may change it shouldn't change dramatically. You can adjust that in subsequent batches.

Oh yea and sorry for the non-celcius temps. Meez still stuck in the past.

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I learned to live with that.

FS, if you plan to come to our NE HBT gathering at the end of March you should bring a sample of that beer. I should have a Bohemian Pilsner going by that time.

Kai

Sorry if I bring havoc in to this but it's not clear how do you bring temp up in your schedules. Are you going to infuse or do decoction. I think decoction from protein to saccharification would do only good to your beer.

AdIn said:

Sorry if I bring havoc in to this but it's not clear how do you bring temp up in your schedules. Are you going to infuse or do decoction. I think decoction from protein to saccharification would do only good to your beer.

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I actually tend to go away from the protein to saccrification decoction as I'm worried about the remaining mash sitting at the protein rest for to long. And German Pilsners aren't really brewed with decoction anyway.

Kai

Kaiser said:

I actually tend to go away from the protein to saccrification decoction as I'm worried about the remaining mash sitting at the protein rest for to long.

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Are the proteins washed into solution with the enzymes? I've found that it takes most of my mash to do a protein->saccharification step via decoction and hence haven't worried about the long protein rest since it's mostly 'enzyme juice' and less than half of the grains left in the mashtun at protein rest temperatures.

I assume most of the proteins are still in the grains which are being decocted (assume being the key word). And this decoction is pulled as soon as the temperature stabilizes and pH is checked, usually ~10 minutes. I haven't noticed any body or head retention issues with my decocted beers.

I was planning on going infusion for saccrification but I've yet to run through the equations to decide if everything looks feasible.

Thanks for the explanations, Kaiser. I feel like I've regressed back to n00bsville with these all-grain experiments, but it sure does expand one's horizon of what's going on and how to control/alter the process and end result. Facsinating stuff.

Other than working out the infusions, the only remaining research is to decide how to treat the water. I have all the local data for our water supply and I've been crunching some #'s with the <excellent> Water Witch spreadsheet but there is still some vague spots here. One of which is chlorine. When we've done ales and such we usually use a charcoal filter to get the chlorine out. However, now that the water profile has become a 'big deal' with this pilsner, should I worry about the charcoal filter taking any minerals out of the water as well as the chlorine? That would surely futs up my numbers when compared to the local pre-filter water analysis. Perhaps it would be better to 'air out' the water overnight to allow the chlorine to diffuse itself out of the water 'naturally'? Lastly, all this leads me towards thinking building up mineral content from a RO batch would be best. A little more reading on this should give me a better idea on which way to go.

Kaiser said:

FS, if you plan to come to our NE HBT gathering at the end of March you should bring a sample of that beer. I should have a Bohemian Pilsner going by that time.

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I do plan on attending, and I regret I couldn't get to the last one. So long as I'm happy with the results I'll be sure to pack some.

Fiery Sword said:

However, now that the water profile has become a 'big deal' with this pilsner, should I worry about the charcoal filter taking any minerals out of the water as well as the chlorine?

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I can't remember where but I read an advice to add 1 tsp of sea salt to minerals free water which should take care of all required elements for yeast action.

Baron von BeeGee said:

Are the proteins washed into solution with the enzymes? I've found that it takes most of my mash to do a protein->saccharification step via decoction and hence haven't worried about the long protein rest since it's mostly 'enzyme juice' and less than half of the grains left in the mashtun at protein rest temperatures.

I assume most of the proteins are still in the grains which are being decocted (assume being the key word). And this decoction is pulled as soon as the temperature stabilizes and pH is checked, usually ~10 minutes. I haven't noticed any body or head retention issues with my decocted beers.

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Same here, I don't have any problem with head retention. I actually do a small trick to shorten decoction time a bit. I pull the thickest mash for decoction then add boiling water instead of mash water, it saves me some time on heating decoction part to first rest temp.

<I feel like I'm breaking out the defibrillators on this thread......the patient must survive one more day!!!>

The starter is going, the recipe is cemented, the pils is going down tomorrow. I have ONE final issue that I can't find any info on. Here goes.

I am going to pre-boil my water tonight to rid myself of the chlorine and cut down on temporary hardness (I'm up in the 50ppm range of bicarbonate in the local supply.....way to much). I am going to let the boiled water sit overnight so the bicarbonates settle out then rack the water off the "snow". I am also planning on treating the water with small additions of gypsum and epsom salts to match the Pilsen profile as closely as possible. If all this dang thinking and calcs are correct, this should land me in a very comfortable range for the water.

Question - Should the minerals (gypsum/epsom) be added prior to the chlorine/bicarbonate boil tonight, or after the racking tomorrow morning?

Ahhhhh.....All grain makes me want to quit my job and dedicate my life to beer.

Fiery Sword said:

Question - Should the minerals (gypsum/epsom) be added prior to the chlorine/bicarbonate boil tonight, or after the racking tomorrow morning?

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Adding them before the boil would just (to some effect) boil them out - but - you are correcting your water from a profile that won't exist once you boil it.

hehe

I wpuld just boil it and use it once it has sat over nite. If you are matching a "specific" region (like Munich) you should buy a water kit from like More Beer and use distilled. Correcting your water profile (if you don't do the boil) is another way. But by boiling, you are changing your water's make-up and correcting from the "old" profile.

Fiery Sword said:

I However, now that the water profile has become a 'big deal' with this pilsner, should I worry about the charcoal filter taking any minerals out of the water as well as the chlorine?

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A charcoal filter will not change the mineral profile of the water.

The gypsum or calcium cloride can be added to the water before using it in the mash or during the mash.

Kai

DC - I understand the idea of what you are saying but I am interested to know specificaly what other important minerals would boil out in the time it would take to affect the chlorine and bicarbonates. In both Palmer and Papazian the boiling process is listed as a very good way of ridding those two elements from your water and in neither do they mention any important side-effects that would occur to the other small handful of minerals that are important to homebrewing. Now, to acknowledge both sides, they don't specificly say something like "this boiling will have little or no effect on calcium, mangesium, sulfate, etc." but they do not warn that using this profess will result making your original water profile "not exist" or apply any more.

Distilled or RO is, and was, an option but I wanted to be able to alter regular tap for darker and lighter beers. My water is 99.8% perfect for medium pales to porters so I don't want to get into buying distilled or an RO kit as 80% of the beers I am making are covered out of the faucet with minor mineral adjustments. Plus, the major adjustment of going to Pilsen water has proven to be a very informative expedition!!

Kaiser said:

A charcoal filter will not change the mineral profile of the water.

The gypsum or calcium cloride can be added to the water before using it in the mash or during the mash.

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....I am almost more worried about my high bicarbonate level than the chlorine though and I do not believe the charcoal filter helps me here (maybe wrong?).

I was leaning towards the boil technique as a result, but if it blanks out other important minerals than it is a wash!

Is there another method to cut down on bicarbonates that will not alter my profile? .....Or will boiling not significantly change the "other" minerals as mentioned in my previous post?

Thanks again all. Very helpful.

Fiery Sword said:

they don't specificly say something like "this boiling will have little or no effect on calcium, mangesium, sulfate, etc." but they do not warn that using this profess will result making your original water profile "not exist" or apply any more.

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I know, I've read similar (if not the same) stuff. Because nobody comes out and says boiling removes XX, so the only thing I can come up with it makes the levels more concentrated becaue you boil out the (some) water and the minerals stay.

Not sure, same statement though, boiling makes your water profile non-existant <shrugs>

blyme!!!!!
Long story, late night, many beers consumed.

Last minute, I come to realization that some anomalies I'm seeing in the water calcs mean one thing:
With my local water supply, I am dealing with chloramine and not chlorine.

A(n) <amazing> number of previous tasting notes regarding phenolic tones now make sense to me. I'm tempted to say that I am moving towards culturing RO/DI or distilled as opposed to dealing with that sh*t.

Feel like saying: F*CKoNG EmDubyaR-A foXing b*stardZ!!!!!!!! Pushing ammonia into my beers, and not acknowledging it in last years water report??? .....Simply not in a sound enough mood to go glass-is-half-full right now.

Decision to be made in morning. Will the pilsner happen?????? Stay tuned....

Fiery Sword said:

Pushing ammonia into my beers, and not acknowledging it in last years water report??? .....Simply not in a sound enough mood to go glass-is-half-full right now.

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They probablly changed at some point and put some stupid little ad in the paper.

Water profiles can change - San Antonio's water supply is an underground auquifer system. The "quality" of the water changes when we don't get any rain and the level drops. They are also "watch dogs" in areas over a recharge zone. Contaminants can get into the entire water supply if it gets in from the right recharge area. It has yet to happen.

They started adding flouride a few years back - people got pissed - I'm pretty sure the people yelling the loudest had no idea what flouride is.

I found that activated charcoal filtering will remove a sufficient amount of colramines. You should try this before you drop the money on an R/O system.

Kai

It's glass-is-half-full time. There seem to be a couple of options to go from here, the first being what we are going to do for this beer.

A friend of mine is an aquarium guy and have a Water General RoDI unit. He is prepping us a 6 gallon batch right now. The pils is going to have to happen tomorrow and today I'm going to have to hunt down some additives that I don't have.

Secondly, it appears that a small part of a campden tablet would convert all the
cloromine to chloride, sulfate and ammonia-- quickly. Mr. Wizard
addresses this here. The verdict is out on how much additional chloride and
sulfate will end up in the "profile" as a result of this though. There is probably some easy way to figure it out...

Lastly, I am going to do some more reading on the charcoal filtering as you mentioned, Kai. Pricing out a RoDI setup is also going to be part of the day's research, or convincing my aquarium friend to supply us in exchange for costs of new filters.....

In the end, I guess this is good stuff to figure out. In a way, I'm glad we chose to dive into a Pils......we probably wouldn't have realized a lot of this stuff if we kept with the pales and browns as we were originally planning. Thanks for the info, and I'll keep the thread posted about how we proceed. Dangit I wish I were brewing right now!!!!:fro: