Interesting German Brewing PDF

stpug · Feb 9, 2017

catsnbeer said:
I have a 10 gal ss mash tun direct fire with recirc ... I will be doing a no sparge mash. What's the dosage of SMB to use per liter? 50mg/l? Really want to avoid a sulfur bomb if possible. Also, are most of you adding AA in addition to SMB?

If you're confident on your minimal O2 pickup then:
40mg/l for lagers
30mg/l for ales

Careful with ale yeasts though because many do not seem to be able to "deal with" excess sulfites. US05, 1056, 001 all seem pretty capable to "deal with" sulfites. If you're not confident on minimal O2 pickup then you may want to add some extra mg/l for insurance.

schematix · Feb 9, 2017

stpug said:
Careful with ale yeasts though because many do not seem to be able to "deal with" excess sulfites. US05, 1056, 001 all seem pretty capable to "deal with" sulfites. If you're not confident on minimal O2 pickup then you may want to add some extra mg/l for insurance.

1450 has handled it well for me too at a 60-70ppm dosage

stpug · Feb 9, 2017

schematix said:
1450 has handled it well for me too at a 60-70ppm dosage

Very good. I'm actually quite happy to read this since that strain is known to be fairly malt-forward (i.e. not malt-subduing), and the last couple malt-forward ale strains I've tried have either been so-so or poor with handling sulfites.

bbohanon · Feb 9, 2017

So with my house IPA that I did as much LODO process as was able to be done on my gear, I did notice a bit more maltiness in the beer and *maybe* the hoppy-ness was a bit brighter, but for the most part, it was the same beer as I remember it being.

This IPA is always a house hit, everyone loves it but the folks I gave it to this time around did not notice any difference from the numerous times they have had it before.

It also does not stay on tap long at my house before its gone so it will be hard to see if it holds up over time..lol

I have a LODO Octoberfest that I currently have spunding in the keg atm so we will see if this gets more of the LODO benefit as its probably more geared to the style needed to get the max bennies from LODO.

Its also the first LODO beer I have spunded in the keg to clean the beer up O2 wise in the keg post racking.

So far, my results have not been anything earth-shattering from what I am used to making but will continue to tighten up on my process and with going completely sealed post boil until it hits the glass I know will help with the O2 exposure.

Still traveling down the LODO road.

schematix · Feb 9, 2017

bbohanon said:
So with my house IPA that I did as much LODO process as was able to be done on my gear, I did notice a bit more maltiness in the beer and *maybe* the hoppy-ness was a bit brighter, but for the most part, it was the same beer as I remember it being.

That was roughly my experience too. The malt flavor was a little cleaner and a little richer, and the hops were brighter (exactly the same word i use to describe it), but i could easily see how an untrained tongue would have a hard time picking it out of a group, especially in most ale styles where there are so many other flavors going on.

The really noticeable difference to me though to me is in how they aged. My IPAs used to be DEAD at a month. I've got one at 4+ months now that still tastes 95% as good as it did at 4 weeks. It's phenomenally different in that regard.

The OutStout isn't quite as old yet, but i am not sensing much changing in the flavor as its approaching 2 months old now. The last time i made it rolled off negatively up until about 4 weeks, where it didn't change much after that. The LoDO version is nowhere near that now.

bbohanon · Feb 9, 2017

schematix said:
That was roughly my experience too. The malt flavor was a little cleaner and a little richer, and the hops were brighter (exactly the same word i use to describe it), but i could easily see how an untrained tongue would have a hard time picking it out of a group, especially in most ale styles where there are so many other flavors going on.

The really noticeable difference to me though to me is in how they aged. My IPAs used to be DEAD at a month. I've got one at 4+ months now that still tastes 95% as good as it did at 4 weeks. It's phenomenally different in that regard.

The OutStout isn't quite as old yet, but i am not sensing much changing in the flavor as its approaching 2 months old now. The last time i made it rolled off negatively up until about 4 weeks, where it didn't change much after that. The LoDO version is nowhere near that now.

Aging beer is a huge problem(?) at my house..I have too many folks that want it that it just gets gone. There are many nights I have envelopes with money and a smiley face on it sitting on one of my freezers when folks stop by to grab a 6-er or fill a growler or 2..I keep the building locked up, but a select group of about 10 folks have a key to get beer as needed.

Less than 2 weeks ago, I had 40 gallons on tap..this week I have less than 7 gallons (damn super bowl). After this weekend, I will be dry short of the Octoberfest that still needs to get lagered a bit. During that time, I *might* have drank 7 pints personally..the rest went out the door to friends/family for SBowl parties/etc. 2 of my friends took entire kegs of beer to parties.

:fro: :mug:

stpug · Feb 9, 2017

I just kegged an IPA yesterday and what follows are my tasting notes of the sample (3 oz uncarbed sample at room temp without any dry hops):

"color is gold; aroma is very big hops - bright, floral, citrusy, pine; hop aroma makes me think of simcoe and citra; really big hop aroma and this is without any dry hopping yet; any malt aroma is overpowered by the hops so can't pick out anything specific in the aroma; light toasty malt flavors; hop flavors follow the aroma; really bright flavors; bitterness is solid and gripping, but not too much; bitterness is slightly astringent or acidic but not aggresive; quite drying on the tongue [sulfate level]; the hops are so prevelant that I don't think this even "required" dry hopping - hopefully the dry hops make it even better (or, at least, not worse)"

I see some similarities in what bbohanon, schematix and I say about our IPAs brewed with this method.

rabeb25 · Feb 9, 2017

joshesmusica said:
Also, rabeb, I really wanted to check out that video that you posted up there, but it seems to be blocked for my area of the world. Is that something you own or is it posted through a different channel? It'd be cool to be able to watch it.

It was blocked due to music being on in the background. I will be making another soon with no music

joshesmusica · Feb 10, 2017

rabeb25 said:
It was blocked due to music being on in the background. I will be making another soon with no music

Sounds pretty lame. Looking forward to seeing the process. From what I could tell from the video screenshot you have lots of nice equipment.

catsnbeer · Feb 10, 2017

Thanks for the reply. I'll be making a Festbier using augustiner yeast. I'm going to shoot for the 40-50 mg/l SMB.

I've perused through the festbier recipes on the GB forum, but one thing that has me seeking out the "it" is an imported festbier I had at a German bar last fall (it was very fresh). Had this amazing toasted grain flavor - mind blowing. Any ideas what malts would contribute that profile to a traditional festbier recipe? My past non lodo attempts have not got me even in the same universe.

Bassman2003 · Feb 10, 2017

Just curious, which yeast is the Augustiner yeast? Augustiner Helles is about the best beer in the world imho...

stpug · Feb 10, 2017

catsnbeer said:
Thanks for the reply. I'll be making a Festbier using augustiner yeast. I'm going to shoot for the 40-50 mg/l SMB.

I've perused through the festbier recipes on the GB forum, but one thing that has me seeking out the "it" is an imported festbier I had at a German bar last fall (it was very fresh). Had this amazing toasted grain flavor - mind blowing. Any ideas what malts would contribute that profile to a traditional festbier recipe? My past non lodo attempts have not got me even in the same universe.

I can't really help with any specifics of German beers because I'm not smart enough in that regard, sorry. I will say that toasted malts (e.g., victory, amber, biscuit, even pale chocolates) come across very well, very powerfully in the finished beer - so a deft hand is helpful. An example of what I'm driving at is that 8-12 oz of victory in a regular, non-low oxygen recipe might be replaced with 2-4 oz of victory in a low oxygen beer to achieve the same general level of toastiness.

If you can find out the festbeer you tried last fall then someone with more recipe guidance might be able to help you out. Sometimes the easiest way is to call the bar and ask about "that awesome, toasty german festbeer" you had at their place last fall - sometimes you'll only get a brand/name but that's a starting point.

catsnbeer · Feb 10, 2017

Bassman2003 said:
Just curious, which yeast is the Augustiner yeast? Augustiner Helles is about the best beer in the world imho...

Some one told me that Wyeast 2352 (Munich II) is the Augustiner isolate. Also, that the L17 Harvest yeast from Imperial Yeast is the same. Maybe I have been mislead, but I have used the yeast before with good (albiet homebrew nominal Do) results.

Bassman2003 · Feb 10, 2017

Hey thanks!

KeyWestBrewing · Feb 10, 2017

bbohanon said:
So with my house IPA that I did as much LODO process as was able to be done on my gear, I did notice a bit more maltiness in the beer and *maybe* the hoppy-ness was a bit brighter, but for the most part, it was the same beer as I remember it being.

This IPA is always a house hit, everyone loves it but the folks I gave it to this time around did not notice any difference from the numerous times they have had it before.

It also does not stay on tap long at my house before its gone so it will be hard to see if it holds up over time..lol

I have a LODO Octoberfest that I currently have spunding in the keg atm so we will see if this gets more of the LODO benefit as its probably more geared to the style needed to get the max bennies from LODO.

Its also the first LODO beer I have spunded in the keg to clean the beer up O2 wise in the keg post racking.

So far, my results have not been anything earth-shattering from what I am used to making but will continue to tighten up on my process and with going completely sealed post boil until it hits the glass I know will help with the O2 exposure.

Still traveling down the LODO road.

Ive brewed several LODO IPAs at this point and I honestly see no difference. IMO because of how heavily hopped the style is the difference is just non perceivable. On the other hand, I do notice a difference in less aggressively hopped styles. Personally its the tight cold side practices that makes great IPAs. Your trying to hold hop freshness. Lose that in an IPA and who really cares about the malt anymore?

TexasWine · Feb 10, 2017

KeyWestBrewing said:
Ive brewed several LODO IPAs at this point and I honestly see no difference. IMO because of how heavily hopped the style is the difference is just non perceivable. On the other hand, I do notice a difference in less aggressively hopped styles. Personally its the tight cold side practices that makes great IPAs. Your trying to hold hop freshness. Lose that in an IPA and who really cares about the malt anymore?

This is interesting because my experience has been different. I've made my house IIPA once using LODO and I could tell a vast difference in the hops. They were brighter and more pleasant somehow. And the shelf life of the wonderful hoppiness was improved.

techbrau · Feb 10, 2017

I think that the unique hop character of NEIPA is entirely due to low-oxygen hopping techniques (hop stand post boil, dry hopping during active fermentation) and minimizing O2 pickup post-fermentation to a much more obsessive degree than most.

rabeb25 · Feb 10, 2017

joshesmusica said:
Sounds pretty lame. Looking forward to seeing the process. From what I could tell from the video screenshot you have lots of nice equipment.

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/a-low-oxygen-brewday/

There it is.

catsnbeer · Feb 10, 2017

stpug said:
I can't really help with any specifics of German beers because I'm not smart enough in that regard, sorry. I will say that toasted malts (e.g., victory, amber, biscuit, even pale chocolates) come across very well, very powerfully in the finished beer - so a deft hand is helpful. An example of what I'm driving at is that 8-12 oz of victory in a regular, non-low oxygen recipe might be replaced with 2-4 oz of victory in a low oxygen beer to achieve the same general level of toastiness.

If you can find out the festbeer you tried last fall then someone with more recipe guidance might be able to help you out. Sometimes the easiest way is to call the bar and ask about "that awesome, toasty german festbeer" you had at their place last fall - sometimes you'll only get a brand/name but that's a starting point.

Thats a great idea to call the bar, I just might. I have had luck as you mention with biscuit and pale chocolate pursuing this flavor in ales, but there has to be a way to get there with the german malts in lagers! I'm starting to wonder if that the toasty/crusty flavor might just be a blend light and dark munich malts that havent been oxidized. Its a darker/toastier taste than the dough I associate with Vienna. At this point im thinking of 60% Pilsner / 40% Munich blend of lt and dark. I am not sure which if any cara malt to use?

techbrau · Feb 10, 2017

Pilsner, Vienna, the Munich malts, a light caramel malt (carahell for example), a dark caramel malt (caramunich for example), and a roasted malt (carafa) is all you need to make the full range of German lagers.

Try starting out with Vienna in the 10-20% range and Munich in the 5-15% range and a bit of caramel malt for a fest.

rabeb25 · Feb 10, 2017

My fest this year was 20% Vienna, 10% Munich, and 5% carahell. It was solid. If you are going marzen you need something like 80% Munich, 14%pils and 6% caramunichII.

TheHairyHop · Feb 11, 2017

techbrau said:
I think that the unique hop character of NEIPA is entirely due to low-oxygen hopping techniques (hop stand post boil, dry hopping during active fermentation) and minimizing O2 pickup post-fermentation to a much more obsessive degree than most.

I believe that most of the "character" is due to that. It also has to due with the specific oil content of the hops, as certain varieties just don't cut it. Trillium seems to only dry hop for some of their beers, which would further this theory as it is the easiest point in the process in which hops can be added with zero O2 pickup. I have since stopped hop standing

joshesmusica · Feb 11, 2017

rabeb25 said:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/a-low-oxygen-brewday/

There it is.

damn dude. that's a hell of a set up.

KeyWestBrewing · Feb 11, 2017

TexasWine said:
This is interesting because my experience has been different. I've made my house IIPA once using LODO and I could tell a vast difference in the hops. They were brighter and more pleasant somehow. And the shelf life of the wonderful hoppiness was improved.

But any improvement on hop character doesn't come from keeping low oxygen levels in the mash. Its all late boil on through the cold side which at that point its all about being tight on CSA.

techbrau said:
I think that the unique hop character of NEIPA is entirely due to low-oxygen hopping techniques (hop stand post boil, dry hopping during active fermentation) and minimizing O2 pickup post-fermentation to a much more obsessive degree than most.

A theory Ive recently had is the key is bringing the ph down and possibly only hopping via dry hopping. This is what I do with my sour IPA and its unreal how much it tastes like white grapefruit juice. Theres definitely something to the acidity that makes the hops a lot more juicy.

rabeb25 · Feb 11, 2017

With all the hub bub around low oxygen brewing and how it doesn't really fit into the normal forums(or does but under tons of scrutiny). We threw up a new forum off our site. It will be dedicated to all the is low oxygen brewing. Nothing style exclusive, any and all are welcome!

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/forum

Bryan

rabeb25 · Feb 11, 2017

joshesmusica said:
damn dude. that's a hell of a set up.

Thanks, its only the beer it produces that matters!

Dcpcooks · Feb 11, 2017

rabeb25 said:
With all the hub bub around low oxygen brewing and how it doesn't really fit into the normal forums(or does but under tons of scrutiny). We threw up a new forum off our site. It will be dedicated to all the is low oxygen brewing. Nothing style exclusive, any and all are welcome!

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/forum

Bryan

So I've been looking at this extensive post and while I'm skeptical I'm willing to consider implementing a test batch.

I have for the most part the set up needed.

RO water
The ability to condition the malt pre milling.
The ability to pump treated preboiled water to underlet the mash.
I can do a single no sparge mash in my 30g mash tun. I can recirc to maintain and ramp temps. I will need to ditch the blichmann auto sparge but could build a bulkhead that would allow me to recirc to the ss brewtech recirc manifold under the surface of the mash and keep splashing to a minimum. I can look into making some type of cap to limit headspace above the mash.

I can limit the level of the boil to a simmer.

I have temp controlled conical fermentors and can transfer under co2 to purged kegs as described, I do not have spunding valves as yet but I can look into this.

Do you have information regarding the use of a stainless steel counter flow chiller? I'm assuming a whirlpool is a no no but it seems that any o2 picked up post boil will be scavenged by yeast in the same manner that it is while aerating with o2 after pitching the yeast. Thats assuming the cooling is rapid and the transfer is fast.

It seems the dry hop is a challenge as I would be opening the fermentor to add hops. If done while still fermenting is this enough to scavenge o2 introduced during the dry-hop?

Has anyone looked at the use of an ss brewtech or sabco bright tank? You could push the beer to the bright tank (purged) before FG is achieved, and have a larger surface to collect the final yeast dropping out. Then serve or push to the keg? If so would beer gas be a better alternative for pushing?

Please let me know your thoughts

Cheers

doug293cz · Feb 11, 2017

Dcpcooks said:
... If so would beer gas be a better alternative for pushing?

Beer gas is going to have even more potential for oxygen exposure than pure CO2. In order to maintain the carbonation level, you need to have the same CO2 partial pressure whether you use CO2 or beer gas. Adding N2 just brings in another gas with it's own partial pressure (which does not affect carb level), but brings it's own O2 impurity level.

Say you need 12 psig (gauge pressure) CO2 to maintain your carbonation level. The CO2 partial pressure is then 12 + 14.7 = 26.7 psia (absolute pressure.) If you wanted to use 25/75 beer gas, then the total absolute pressure required is 26.7 * 4 = 106.8 psia or 106.8 - 14.7 = 92.1 psig. If you use less than 92 psig beer gas, then your CO2 partial pressure will be lower than 26.7 psia, and your beer will lose carbonation over time.

So, using beer gas requires about four times the total gas in the headspace vs. CO2 only. If the N2 has a similar level of O2 impurity as the CO2, then you would have about four times the amount of O2 in the headspace.

Brew on :mug:

joshesmusica · Feb 11, 2017

rabeb25 said:
Thanks, its only the beer it produces that matters!

haha if only.

One day I do want to have a fairly similar setup. Until then, I'm stuck with the equipment and budget that I have.

If a lot of the contributors to the original LoDo pdf concept have similar setups, I now completely understand how it was so often repeated that a subpar batch is completely tossed out.

joshesmusica · Feb 12, 2017

Do you guys take any measurements during the mash (for those that don't have super fancy setups)?

I'm now on my third batch of just trying to dial in a process of minimal splashing. (I've explained that I'm just hoping to see some results, even though I'm not going full-on LoDo just yet.) On two of those three batches of pouring the grain gently straight into the water and then gently stirring and checking for dough balls, I've experienced that even 30 minutes into the mash, it seems that the grain isn't quite having all of the expected chemical reactions, and is quite a bit lower than expected. Today I extended the mash to 90 minutes in order to attempt to counteract this. Numbers were a bit low, but very close. So it seemed to have worked. But I just can't seem to stir enough with this approach.

Anybody else that doesn't have any kind of recirculating mash experience this?

Interesting German Brewing PDF

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