Interesting German Brewing PDF

[Jwin]

I want to circle back around to the begining a bit here. There's mentioning of copper wort chillers being a no no. 2 part question.
1) is there any pretreatment of a copper IC that could remove oxide to an acceptable point or a point of benefit?(heavy star san soak maybe?) Preboiling the IC in a separate kettle before use?
2) is the use of aluminum kettles acceptable in LODO?
As all metals will have an oxide lair to varying degrees. Is there any consensus of worst/best metals? Different grades of stainless better than others?
I can't fully commit to the LODO process at this point but I believe I am good from all aspects except IC and possibly kettles. I have for some time now had my cold side process in good shape, even before publication of this. I just can't commit to a new chiller at this time as I have exceeded the brew toys budget for the time being with camlocks and rims for my soon to be built rig. I have 15 and 20g Al kettles that would be costly to replace with SS. Conversely, I don't want to drop the coin on a new 50ft chiller if my kettles would make it a moot point.
Thank in advance for your feedback.

 

[techbrau]

to me, this pushes some logic buttons, because you're oxygenating way above 0.4 ppm to ferment. if you rack onto a fermentable, there is fermentation happening to scrub the O2 just as when you oxygenate wort in the first place

Sorry, didn't see that he's racking onto dextrose. It should be less of an issue then - my experience was relevant only to racking fully fermented beer.

 

[techbrau]

I want to circle back around to the begining a bit here. There's mentioning of copper wort chillers being a no no. 2 part question.
1) is there any pretreatment of a copper IC that could remove oxide to an acceptable point or a point of benefit?(heavy star san soak maybe?) Preboiling the IC in a separate kettle before use?
2) is the use of aluminum kettles acceptable in LODO?
As all metals will have an oxide lair to varying degrees. Is there any consensus of worst/best metals? Different grades of stainless better than others?
I can't fully commit to the LODO process at this point but I believe I am good from all aspects except IC and possibly kettles. I have for some time now had my cold side process in good shape, even before publication of this. I just can't commit to a new chiller at this time as I have exceeded the brew toys budget for the time being with camlocks and rims for my soon to be built rig. I have 15 and 20g Al kettles that would be costly to replace with SS. Conversely, I don't want to drop the coin on a new 50ft chiller if my kettles would make it a moot point.
Thank in advance for your feedback.

I don't know about removing the copper oxide layer. Originally I thought it might be a good idea but then I realized that it's just exposing the copper underneath which is sure to leech.

The aluminum oxide layer should be stable down to a pH in the 4's so it might be okay. Don't try any kettle sours in them. Watch out for wort scorching and thermal stress because aluminum kettles are usually quite thin.

 

[schematix]

I have a family gathering in a few months so i'm planning now to make a crowd-pleasing LoDO lager, probably a Helles. The styles I normally keep in inventory are too hoppy for most people so i was leaning towards making the PDF Helles again. Any recipe tweak suggestions for making a v2.0 PDF Helles?

 

[schematix]

If i were to get my Hydra IC either chrome or gold plated would that make it LoDO friendly???

Sounds like a serious blind opportunity.

 

[catsnbeer]

I am about to transfer an Ale to the spund keg, its about 8 pts above FG right now (so actively fermenting). Is it critical to completely purge the spund keg with CO2 by filling with sanitizer and dispensing? Won't the active yeast just absorb any O2 that's around during the transfer? Is it enough to just gently transfer and quickly install the spund valve? Thanks in advance!

 

[rabeb25]

I have a family gathering in a few months so i'm planning now to make a crowd-pleasing LoDO lager, probably a Helles. The styles I normally keep in inventory are too hoppy for most people so i was leaning towards making the PDF Helles again. Any recipe tweak suggestions for making a v2.0 PDF Helles?

It will make a solid helles as is. Personally I don't like low oxygen vienna much so I would omit vienna in lieu of pale ale malt. But I wouldn't go out of my way to procure any either.

 

[rabeb25]

I am about to transfer an Ale to the spund keg, its about 8 pts above FG right now (so actively fermenting). Is it critical to completely purge the spund keg with CO2 by filling with sanitizer and dispensing? Won't the active yeast just absorb any O2 that's around during the transfer? Is it enough to just gently transfer and quickly install the spund valve? Thanks in advance!

Beer is a sum of all parts. I would do the method as its written at least once to get a baseline. That way if you want to deviate going forward you have a point of reference.

 

[schematix]

It will make a solid helles as is. Personally I don't like low oxygen vienna much so I would omit vienna in lieu of pale ale malt. But I wouldn't go out of my way to procure any either.

I am a fan of the PDF recipe as-is, but was looking to get some insight for potential changes since i'm always looking to do better. There isn't any vienna in that recipe though so not sure what you're referring to.

Anyone ever tried a LoDO Marris Otter based lager? Thoughts?

 

[rabeb25]

I am a fan of the PDF recipe as-is, but was looking to get some insight for potential changes since i'm always looking to do better. There isn't any vienna in that recipe though so not sure what you're referring to.

Anyone ever tried a LoDO Marris Otter based lager? Thoughts?

Ahh you must have V1, there is a V2 as well (V2 has vienna).

My personal helles is pils malt to 2srm(I use pale ale malt to adjust) and 4% carahell. Any of them will do just fine.

 

[schematix]

Ahh you must have V1, there is a V2 as well (V2 has vienna).

My personal helles is pils malt to 2srm(I use pale ale malt to adjust) and 4% carahell. Any of them will do just fine.

Where can i find the V2 recipe in full?

 

[rabeb25]

Where can i find the V2 recipe in full?

Here

 

[Bilsch]

If i were to get my Hydra IC either chrome or gold plated would that make it LoDO friendly???

Oh yea gold plating would be way snazzy! Au is a very unreactive metal and has almost as good thermal conductivity as the copper. Chromium's thermal conductivity is 1/4th that of gold and just about 1/5 of copper. Chrome is also brittle and the successive expansion and contraction of the copper from temperature changes might micro crack the surface, while gold is very malleable. I wonder how much Au plating would cost? After all only a very tiny amount of the expensive metal need be applied in plating.

 

[rabeb25]

Brewing an American Wheat today.

Live sessions

Facebook

[ame=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh_KfHyTahc]Youtube[/ame]


8)

 

[TexasWine]

Any of y'all having clarify issues since switching to this process? I am, but I'm chalking up to not using gelatin with the low DO process whereas previously I was.

Not sure if this has any impact, but I'm not using the gold standard of transferring to the serving keg and spunding. Instead I've been fermenting out to completion in the primary and then transferring and priming in the serving keg. My next few batches I am going to follow the hybrid method mentioned a few pages ago: ferment out in primary, add priming solution to the primary, allow fermentation to restart, then transfer.

Also, I wonder if BIAB is a potential culprit. When the bag is pulled it inevitably disturbs the grain bed and makes the wort cloudy. I have a spare kettle I could transfer to, ensuring that I get crystal clear wort into the boil. I would just prefer to keep my process unchanged if a change is not needed.

Anybody using Fermcap in the boil? Whirfloc?

Thanks for any clues and suggestions.

 

[schematix]

Any of y'all having clarify issues since switching to this process?

Since switching to LoDO my beer actually got more clear.

I have a RIMS.

I've been adding fermcap-s to the boil for a long time (even pre LoDO) to keep it from boiling over (18G in a 20G pot is kind scary when you add the first hops). I don't think that has any impact on haze.

I've added whirlfloc to nearly every single batch i've ever made except when i forgot (1-2 times). Oddly enough the beers where it was forgotten also cleared just fine.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

A short 15min protein rest and whirl floc does a good job for me. Ive stopped using gelatin at this point and still get crystal clear beers.

 

[rabeb25]

I think it boils down a few things. I try and follow do/these:

Proper pH
Crystal clear mash runnings
Crystal clear lautering
Hot break and cold break removal
High floccuating yeast
Transfer to spund with ~4 points remaining. When coupled with a high floccuating yeast most of the yeast has dropped into the cake
Lagering at 30f

When I follow that I get crystal clear beers in about 4 weeks from brew day.

Here are some photos of my process
Mash clarity
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1486152012.389866.jpg

Lauter clarity
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1486152040.720522.jpg
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1486152089.419747.jpg

Break removal
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1486152114.737889.jpg
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1486152167.629224.jpg

Transfer to spund
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1486152273.254468.jpg

At fg
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1486152298.623065.jpg

4 weeks later
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1486152315.799010.jpg

 

[schematix]

I think it boils down a few things. I try and follow do/these:

Proper pH
Crystal clear mash runnings
Crystal clear lautering
Hot break and cold break removal
High floccuating yeast
Transfer to spund with ~4 points remaining. When coupled with a high floccuating yeast most of the yeast has dropped into the cake
Lagering at 30f

beautiful.

 

[lari]

4 weeks later
View attachment 387431

WOW!!!! kudos

im fermenting my second LoDO and noticed krausen is a lot smaller than usual. any idea?

 

[rabeb25]

I have not noticed anything like that.

 

[joshesmusica]

Beer looks great rabeb. Much better than the pics on one of the last links you shared that showed the difference in color between lodo and non-lodo.

I'm still following along, although as I've said, it's not quite possible for me to go full-on lodo right now. But I will say I've started adopting some of the hot side practices - mainly just keeping the splashing to a minimum and not stirring with a whisk at dough-in, nor as it's cooling before I'm pitching the yeast. I've done this on the last two batches, one that just got kegged (but I did a no-no and burst carbonated it). So I have nothing to really comment as far as a difference in malt taste. But the one I've got on tap right now is a style I might have possibly "invented" - a hoppy brunbier. Basically I've already been experimenting with getting a solid recipe on a hoppy witbier, but this time I randomly decided to add a bit of brown malt.

Anyways, I've always had a problem with head retention. Something I attributed to the fact that I'm just tapping out of sh!tty picnic taps. Even messed with different types of malts that are supposed to help with that to make sure it wasn't my recipe or anything like that. Always had a solid hot break and cold break. Thought I had all the necessary processes down in order to ensure some nice head retention. Yet always had a problem, so it just HAD to be the picnic taps. This beer is 45.5% wheat malt, so it should have ton of potential for a nice creamy head. Turns out, it finally does!

I've got it carbed pretty high (to style), but man just a really dense head to it. I was watching a documentary during dinner and completely forgot to take a drink after I had poured it. Probably 15 mins went by, and it looked exactly the same as when I'd poured it. What's more it looked like off-white to tan colored whipped cream!

All that to say, I do believe this process has merits even at the homebrew scale. And if anyone still doubts it, I do believe that focusing on some of this small stuff, even if not willing to go full on lodo, will improve the final product.

 

[rabeb25]

The reason for the cloudy beer, which actually wasn't all that cloudy is poor lighting in my basement and condensation of the glasses. I'll admit it was not brilliantly clear but it wasn't far off either. The reason for using a younger low oxygen beer, was for the triple blind testing I wanted beers as close to the same age to make it more fair. As the older the beers got the further apart they become. Even for the testing it was a no brainer in terms of picking one out.

 

[joshesmusica]

The reason for the cloudy beer, which actually wasn't all that cloudy is poor lighting in my basement and condensation of the glasses. I'll admit it was not brilliantly clear but it wasn't far off either. The reason for using a younger low oxygen beer, was for the triple blind testing I wanted beers as close to the same age to make it more fair. As the older the beers got the further apart they become. Even for the testing it was a no brainer in terms of picking one out.

Yeah I could tell that a bit of it was because of condensation, but in that particular picture, the non-lodo was much clearer than the lodo.

As I said, I'm convinced, but the problem is I just don't have the money to get my equipment completely to where it needs to be - mainly on the cold side.

And when I tried to ask the guy at the LHBS where he thought I might be able to buy some sodium metabisulfite, he said they had some potassium metabisulfite. When I tried to explain the difference and how I'd planned on using it differently than normal, he just didn't understand. So I suppose I could order some on amazon, but not sure how well that'd get through customs.

 

[schematix]

I was doing some DI mash pH tests today (mixing small quantity of water and grain together for short mash) and it was a solid reminder how different the mash is in LODO vs non-LODO. Literally within seconds that aroma is in your face in a non-LODO mash.

 

[Bilsch]

The ex wife used to detest the mash smell that would fill the whole house on brewday. She gave me the ultimatum and too bad she had to go. This is the only benefit of hido brewing I know of.

 

[lari]

hi,
quick question, if using tap water with moderate alkalinity is it better to add acid before boil or after?

 

[joshesmusica]

Also, rabeb, I really wanted to check out that video that you posted up there, but it seems to be blocked for my area of the world. Is that something you own or is it posted through a different channel? It'd be cool to be able to watch it.

 

[stpug]

hi,
quick question, if using tap water with moderate alkalinity is it better to add acid before boil or after?

These are my general process steps:
Preboil/deoxygenate water (10 min),
chill to strike temp,
add brewing minerals/salts/acids,
add oxy-scavanging additions (sulfites, ascorbic, BtB, SBT, etc),
wait (7 min),
proceed with brewday

 

[catsnbeer]

I will be using SMB this weekend for the first time, but have already implemented most of the other rec's with good results (the advice on ******************** regarding trub exclusion was very enlightening for me).

I have a 10 gal ss mash tun direct fire with recirc ... I will be doing a no sparge mash. What's the dosage of SMB to use per liter? 50mg/l? Really want to avoid a sulfur bomb if possible. Also, are most of you adding AA in addition to SMB?

Thanks in advance!

 

[stpug]

I have a 10 gal ss mash tun direct fire with recirc ... I will be doing a no sparge mash. What's the dosage of SMB to use per liter? 50mg/l? Really want to avoid a sulfur bomb if possible. Also, are most of you adding AA in addition to SMB?

If you're confident on your minimal O2 pickup then:
40mg/l for lagers
30mg/l for ales

Careful with ale yeasts though because many do not seem to be able to "deal with" excess sulfites. US05, 1056, 001 all seem pretty capable to "deal with" sulfites. If you're not confident on minimal O2 pickup then you may want to add some extra mg/l for insurance.

 

[schematix]

Careful with ale yeasts though because many do not seem to be able to "deal with" excess sulfites. US05, 1056, 001 all seem pretty capable to "deal with" sulfites. If you're not confident on minimal O2 pickup then you may want to add some extra mg/l for insurance.

1450 has handled it well for me too at a 60-70ppm dosage

 

[stpug]

1450 has handled it well for me too at a 60-70ppm dosage

Very good. I'm actually quite happy to read this since that strain is known to be fairly malt-forward (i.e. not malt-subduing), and the last couple malt-forward ale strains I've tried have either been so-so or poor with handling sulfites.

 

[bbohanon]

So with my house IPA that I did as much LODO process as was able to be done on my gear, I did notice a bit more maltiness in the beer and *maybe* the hoppy-ness was a bit brighter, but for the most part, it was the same beer as I remember it being.

This IPA is always a house hit, everyone loves it but the folks I gave it to this time around did not notice any difference from the numerous times they have had it before.

It also does not stay on tap long at my house before its gone so it will be hard to see if it holds up over time..lol

I have a LODO Octoberfest that I currently have spunding in the keg atm so we will see if this gets more of the LODO benefit as its probably more geared to the style needed to get the max bennies from LODO.

Its also the first LODO beer I have spunded in the keg to clean the beer up O2 wise in the keg post racking.

So far, my results have not been anything earth-shattering from what I am used to making but will continue to tighten up on my process and with going completely sealed post boil until it hits the glass I know will help with the O2 exposure.

Still traveling down the LODO road.

 

[schematix]

So with my house IPA that I did as much LODO process as was able to be done on my gear, I did notice a bit more maltiness in the beer and *maybe* the hoppy-ness was a bit brighter, but for the most part, it was the same beer as I remember it being.

That was roughly my experience too. The malt flavor was a little cleaner and a little richer, and the hops were brighter (exactly the same word i use to describe it), but i could easily see how an untrained tongue would have a hard time picking it out of a group, especially in most ale styles where there are so many other flavors going on.

The really noticeable difference to me though to me is in how they aged. My IPAs used to be DEAD at a month. I've got one at 4+ months now that still tastes 95% as good as it did at 4 weeks. It's phenomenally different in that regard.

The OutStout isn't quite as old yet, but i am not sensing much changing in the flavor as its approaching 2 months old now. The last time i made it rolled off negatively up until about 4 weeks, where it didn't change much after that. The LoDO version is nowhere near that now.

 

[bbohanon]

That was roughly my experience too. The malt flavor was a little cleaner and a little richer, and the hops were brighter (exactly the same word i use to describe it), but i could easily see how an untrained tongue would have a hard time picking it out of a group, especially in most ale styles where there are so many other flavors going on.

The really noticeable difference to me though to me is in how they aged. My IPAs used to be DEAD at a month. I've got one at 4+ months now that still tastes 95% as good as it did at 4 weeks. It's phenomenally different in that regard.

The OutStout isn't quite as old yet, but i am not sensing much changing in the flavor as its approaching 2 months old now. The last time i made it rolled off negatively up until about 4 weeks, where it didn't change much after that. The LoDO version is nowhere near that now.

Aging beer is a huge problem(?) at my house..I have too many folks that want it that it just gets gone. There are many nights I have envelopes with money and a smiley face on it sitting on one of my freezers when folks stop by to grab a 6-er or fill a growler or 2..I keep the building locked up, but a select group of about 10 folks have a key to get beer as needed.

Less than 2 weeks ago, I had 40 gallons on tap..this week I have less than 7 gallons (damn super bowl). After this weekend, I will be dry short of the Octoberfest that still needs to get lagered a bit. During that time, I *might* have drank 7 pints personally..the rest went out the door to friends/family for SBowl parties/etc. 2 of my friends took entire kegs of beer to parties.

:fro:

 

[stpug]

I just kegged an IPA yesterday and what follows are my tasting notes of the sample (3 oz uncarbed sample at room temp without any dry hops):

"color is gold; aroma is very big hops - bright, floral, citrusy, pine; hop aroma makes me think of simcoe and citra; really big hop aroma and this is without any dry hopping yet; any malt aroma is overpowered by the hops so can't pick out anything specific in the aroma; light toasty malt flavors; hop flavors follow the aroma; really bright flavors; bitterness is solid and gripping, but not too much; bitterness is slightly astringent or acidic but not aggresive; quite drying on the tongue [sulfate level]; the hops are so prevelant that I don't think this even "required" dry hopping - hopefully the dry hops make it even better (or, at least, not worse)"

I see some similarities in what bbohanon, schematix and I say about our IPAs brewed with this method.

 

[rabeb25]

Also, rabeb, I really wanted to check out that video that you posted up there, but it seems to be blocked for my area of the world. Is that something you own or is it posted through a different channel? It'd be cool to be able to watch it.

It was blocked due to music being on in the background. I will be making another soon with no music

 

[joshesmusica]

It was blocked due to music being on in the background. I will be making another soon with no music

Sounds pretty lame. Looking forward to seeing the process. From what I could tell from the video screenshot you have lots of nice equipment.

 

[catsnbeer]

Thanks for the reply. I'll be making a Festbier using augustiner yeast. I'm going to shoot for the 40-50 mg/l SMB.

I've perused through the festbier recipes on the GB forum, but one thing that has me seeking out the "it" is an imported festbier I had at a German bar last fall (it was very fresh). Had this amazing toasted grain flavor - mind blowing. Any ideas what malts would contribute that profile to a traditional festbier recipe? My past non lodo attempts have not got me even in the same universe.