Ha funny you mention the wyeast... I.have an extra 3711 and that's why I posted origionaly.
Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments
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FromZwolle
I don't want to be cremated, I want to be malted.
ok, read through this whole thread a few months ago, and i'm too lazy to do it again. so was there a difinitive conclusion? a gold, silver, bronze combo that you have come up with, or is the testing still in progress?
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CvilleKevin
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The testing is still a work in progress, although there have been some really good ones so far. I wouldnt say that there was a gold, silver and bronze, mainly because tastes vary so much. My current "A" list is on the previous page - thats the current list that I'm planning to make keg batches with next season. Any of these will work great, depending on what you are going for
JohnwSAV
Member
Hey...just posting a little follw-up on methods to stop fermentation before the must hits 1.000 or less. I just racked another batch of two-week ginger mead to a carboy for cold-crashing, so I had a 3 gallon carboy of yeast sediment available for something new. Reading this thread put me in a mind for making a quick cider, so I bought three gallons of apple juice in the refrigerated section of the grocery store. I was shopping without eye-glasses, and could not read the label, so I took it that juice that needed chilling would be nothing but juice...WRONG! The juice has potassium sorbate...and I should have known better because in the past I have had frozen raspberries sit in the crisper of my fridge and ferment from the wild yeasts that were on the berries...so duh, apple juice could have the same thing happen.
Anyway, what the hell, I had the juice and a carboy with a healthy yeast cake, so in went the juice...and just for good measure a packet of fermentis saflager W34/70.
Three days later and it's fermenting along quite nicely...dropped from 1.048 to 1.038 already, which goes to show you that potassium sorbate does not "stop" fermentation...just reproduction of the yeast.
So what do I do to ensure this ferments out? I've made up a 1 quart starter using some honey...if the cider appears to slow too much, in goes the starter with just enough left behind to add more honey and have a follow-up starter, and so on. But I really doubt I'll need to add much more yeast to bring this down to 1.008 or so. (follow-up: 6-25-2010 gravity reads 1.020, yeast still eating away, airlock bubbles every 5 -10 seconds, no additional starter added)
When it hits 1.008, I'll rack it onto about 1 dozen finely crushed Granny Smiths and cold crash it...hoping to add some tartness and apple complexity. (I live in Savannah, GA...I think I once saw an apple tree around here, but it had sad looking blotchy apples, and only a very few at that...so freash-pressed apple juice is a twelve-hour round-trip drive kinda thing for me...so cider is not so big around here as a home-made alcohol delivery system)
Kevin, how about a little advice for me on where to stop my gravity and have a nice semi-sweet cider?
Anyway, what the hell, I had the juice and a carboy with a healthy yeast cake, so in went the juice...and just for good measure a packet of fermentis saflager W34/70.
Three days later and it's fermenting along quite nicely...dropped from 1.048 to 1.038 already, which goes to show you that potassium sorbate does not "stop" fermentation...just reproduction of the yeast.
So what do I do to ensure this ferments out? I've made up a 1 quart starter using some honey...if the cider appears to slow too much, in goes the starter with just enough left behind to add more honey and have a follow-up starter, and so on. But I really doubt I'll need to add much more yeast to bring this down to 1.008 or so. (follow-up: 6-25-2010 gravity reads 1.020, yeast still eating away, airlock bubbles every 5 -10 seconds, no additional starter added)
When it hits 1.008, I'll rack it onto about 1 dozen finely crushed Granny Smiths and cold crash it...hoping to add some tartness and apple complexity. (I live in Savannah, GA...I think I once saw an apple tree around here, but it had sad looking blotchy apples, and only a very few at that...so freash-pressed apple juice is a twelve-hour round-trip drive kinda thing for me...so cider is not so big around here as a home-made alcohol delivery system)
Kevin, how about a little advice for me on where to stop my gravity and have a nice semi-sweet cider?
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CvilleKevin
Well-Known Member
Hey John - the best place to stop fermentation is a matter of personal taste, and is also influenced by the amount of acid in the apples. 1.008 seems to be a good average number although most commercial ciders are a lot higher. I find that after 1.004, most of the flavor starts washing out, but some folks like it real dry. My advice would be to taste it around 1.015 and then every couple points or so after that to find the optimal point for your juice.
JohnwSAV
Member
Kevin, thanks for the advice..I'll do what you suggest.
Just checked the gravity on the cider I mentioned in my post, and its come down another 8 points in one day...so I'd say potassium sorbate can be overcome...or so it seems when a 1.048 or so must is hit with a large population of yeast.
Just checked the gravity on the cider I mentioned in my post, and its come down another 8 points in one day...so I'd say potassium sorbate can be overcome...or so it seems when a 1.048 or so must is hit with a large population of yeast.
![Craft A Brew - Safale BE-256 Yeast - Fermentis - Belgian Ale Dry Yeast - For Belgian & Strong Ales - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [3 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51bcKEwQmWL._SL500_.jpg)
naeco
Well-Known Member
BRAVO !!!!
Thanks for the info.
naeco
Thanks for the info.
naeco
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CvilleKevin
Well-Known Member
The commercial presses wont be starting up for another 3 weeks or so, but yesterday some friends and I got 15 bushels of early season apples and pressed a little less than 35 gal of juice. The apples were Gala, McIntosh and Prima, which made a pretty good mix. It looks like this is going to be another good year for apples. These were the best looking #2 cider apples I've seen.
We had about a dozen people helping, so it went real fast. The actual pressing took about 2 hours, plus an hour before and after to clean and sanitize the press. My friends John and Michelle have a really nice press with two baskets so we could pulp one batch while squeezing another. Afterwards we finished off 6 liters of hard cider from last season
The juice doesnt have much bite in the finish but has lots of flavor in the middle. The pH was 3.5. and Sg was 1.45. I got three carboys. One batch has 3lbs wildflower honey and S04. One has turbinado/dextrose mix and US05, the other has turbinado/dextrose mix and 3056. No sulfites.
It is still really warm in my basement - about 80 degrees when I pitched the yeast, although it cooled down some last night. The two ale yeast batches had airlock activity within 4 hours and the 3056 was going in 12 hours. This is the earliest I have ever made cider. These should ferment out really fast so I'm glad I only have 3 batches to deal with.
When I went to the orchard to get the apples, they told me that this week they would be picking and grading Northern Spys, so I might have to do this again next weekend
We had about a dozen people helping, so it went real fast. The actual pressing took about 2 hours, plus an hour before and after to clean and sanitize the press. My friends John and Michelle have a really nice press with two baskets so we could pulp one batch while squeezing another. Afterwards we finished off 6 liters of hard cider from last season
The juice doesnt have much bite in the finish but has lots of flavor in the middle. The pH was 3.5. and Sg was 1.45. I got three carboys. One batch has 3lbs wildflower honey and S04. One has turbinado/dextrose mix and US05, the other has turbinado/dextrose mix and 3056. No sulfites.
It is still really warm in my basement - about 80 degrees when I pitched the yeast, although it cooled down some last night. The two ale yeast batches had airlock activity within 4 hours and the 3056 was going in 12 hours. This is the earliest I have ever made cider. These should ferment out really fast so I'm glad I only have 3 batches to deal with.
When I went to the orchard to get the apples, they told me that this week they would be picking and grading Northern Spys, so I might have to do this again next weekend
wcarter1227
Well-Known Member
Kevin,
Have you ever used danstar munich dry yeast or safebrew t58 in cider?
Also ive been looking at a thread about bottle pasterizing carbed cider, have you ever done this?
Last but not least im going to an orchard next month to pick up more fresh cider and going to ferment it with wild yeast. As for apples what would be a good apple mix? I really love pink lady but what else would you mix with that?
Have you ever used danstar munich dry yeast or safebrew t58 in cider?
Also ive been looking at a thread about bottle pasterizing carbed cider, have you ever done this?
Last but not least im going to an orchard next month to pick up more fresh cider and going to ferment it with wild yeast. As for apples what would be a good apple mix? I really love pink lady but what else would you mix with that?
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CvilleKevin
Well-Known Member
I've used both of the munich and t58, but didnt get good results with these yeasts.
I havent tried bottle pasteurizing. I can fill bottles from kegs, so it would just be extra work for me. But it does seem like this method would work very well for someone who does not have a kegging setup and wants to bottle condition a sweet cider.
Pink Lady mixes great with Stayman. I havent tried to mix PL with Northern Spy yet, but I hope to do so this season. The three of those together would likely be awesome. Cameo would also be good. You could make all sorts of three apple mixes with PL and one that is more tart, and one more sweet
I've had best luck with wild yeast later in the season when its colder and the ferment is slower. I did a batch in September that refused to crash and within 2 weeks was fermented completely dry, watery and nearly tasteless. Early Oct batch was meh, late Oct was good. Jan took 3 1/2 months to ferment and was best.
I havent tried bottle pasteurizing. I can fill bottles from kegs, so it would just be extra work for me. But it does seem like this method would work very well for someone who does not have a kegging setup and wants to bottle condition a sweet cider.
Pink Lady mixes great with Stayman. I havent tried to mix PL with Northern Spy yet, but I hope to do so this season. The three of those together would likely be awesome. Cameo would also be good. You could make all sorts of three apple mixes with PL and one that is more tart, and one more sweet
I've had best luck with wild yeast later in the season when its colder and the ferment is slower. I did a batch in September that refused to crash and within 2 weeks was fermented completely dry, watery and nearly tasteless. Early Oct batch was meh, late Oct was good. Jan took 3 1/2 months to ferment and was best.
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CvilleKevin
Well-Known Member
This week it got to mid 90s outside. Wed afternoon it hit 80 again in my basement which was too high for the ciders and they were putting off a little bit of sulfur.
So I moved them in front of the AC. That has kept the temp to 72 max and the ciders smell nice and appley again. The SGs all dropped from ~1.060 Sunday to ~1.035 by Wed, so I expect that I will cold crash these this weekend. I'm planning to check them out this eve as soon as SWMBO gets home.
update - the US05 and 3056 batches were at 1.022 and S04 with honey was at 1.028. They all tasted good but still too sweet. This is day 5, so they will probably finish out in 6-10 days. I plan to crash the 3056 first, followed by US05 then S04.
wcarter1227
Well-Known Member
So Im gonna try bottle pasturizing my cider as I racked it today at a gravity of 1.010.
I know that i have a chance of bottle bombs so i bottled them in some belgian bottles and corked them. I have an old chest that I am storing them in until i get the right carbonation and then gonna try to see if i can stabilize them by pasterizing. I tried a sample today and it tastes kind of like a better tasting woodchuck. Ill post pics in a few weeks if I have any luck
I know that i have a chance of bottle bombs so i bottled them in some belgian bottles and corked them. I have an old chest that I am storing them in until i get the right carbonation and then gonna try to see if i can stabilize them by pasterizing. I tried a sample today and it tastes kind of like a better tasting woodchuck. Ill post pics in a few weeks if I have any luck
Kevin, the photos of the apples and pressing are great! What a great way to mark another autumn!
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CvilleKevin
Well-Known Member
I got six more carboys of juice yesterday. Mostly Cortland, Mac and Gala with some Honeycrisp, Grimes Golden and Jonathan. sg 1.050 and pH 3.9. This tastes like a good cider mix. The Galas give off a smell when they are pressed that is like cinnamon, and you get a little bit of that in the juice, along with the Mac aroma. Not much sweetness up front but a lot of flavor. It seems to me to be more tart than the last batch even though the pH is 0.4 higher.
One carboy has nothing but S04 yeast. I'm planning to let that one go on the dry side to 0.004 or 0.006. One has 3lb orange blossom honey and Wyeast 1010. I added a pound and a half of sugar to each of the other four carboys, with Brupack Ale, WLP005, US05, and Wy3068.
I pitched the yeast about 24 hours ago and they are all going strong. The two wheat batches 1010 and 3068 both needed blowoff tubes.
In the meantime, it looks like all three of the first carboys from this season are resisting clearing on the cold crash. I'm pretty sure that the culprit is the Prima apples. I havent used these in a mix before and it turns out that they are a popular applesauce apple. I suspect that like Rome apples they have a lot more pectin than the Macs and Galas. All of the carboys dropped a lot of trub during the crash, but it is still very hazy, even the one with the honey. I crashed US05 and 3056 at 1.010. S04 was 1.008. After a few days at room temp I'm getting some yeast activity at about a bubble per minute. So I'm going to re-crash these. The US05 batch tastes great and could be kegged right now if the situation warranted. The 3056 still tastes a little yeasty and the S04 batch needs some more time to mellow
One carboy has nothing but S04 yeast. I'm planning to let that one go on the dry side to 0.004 or 0.006. One has 3lb orange blossom honey and Wyeast 1010. I added a pound and a half of sugar to each of the other four carboys, with Brupack Ale, WLP005, US05, and Wy3068.
I pitched the yeast about 24 hours ago and they are all going strong. The two wheat batches 1010 and 3068 both needed blowoff tubes.
In the meantime, it looks like all three of the first carboys from this season are resisting clearing on the cold crash. I'm pretty sure that the culprit is the Prima apples. I havent used these in a mix before and it turns out that they are a popular applesauce apple. I suspect that like Rome apples they have a lot more pectin than the Macs and Galas. All of the carboys dropped a lot of trub during the crash, but it is still very hazy, even the one with the honey. I crashed US05 and 3056 at 1.010. S04 was 1.008. After a few days at room temp I'm getting some yeast activity at about a bubble per minute. So I'm going to re-crash these. The US05 batch tastes great and could be kegged right now if the situation warranted. The 3056 still tastes a little yeasty and the S04 batch needs some more time to mellow
ivanoharris
Member
Hey there, thanks again for all the insight over the past year or so as I've started playing with cider-making. I've got an orchard I've been working with who's very helpful, but not experienced with hard-cider making.
Do you have any rules of thumb for varietal / brix / etc decisions. I can get a pretty good selection though it's skewed to fresh and non-hard consumption. They go through a lot of presses, so I can probably be more specific on my brix requests.
Any info helpful. Thanks.
Ivano
Do you have any rules of thumb for varietal / brix / etc decisions. I can get a pretty good selection though it's skewed to fresh and non-hard consumption. They go through a lot of presses, so I can probably be more specific on my brix requests.
Any info helpful. Thanks.
Ivano
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CvilleKevin
Well-Known Member
not really. I know what I like. What varieties can you get now? Not knowing the apple types, the best thing is to sample all of them, make some notes on the flavor and aroma, then take the best flavor and/or most interesting ones, cut them into very thin slices and see how they taste in combinations of 2-5 slices at a time. I'd avoid sauce apples like Rome and Prima even though they add some nice flavors because they are less likely to clear
Hi Everyone, Here's a stupid question. I've never kegged before and am still relatively new to home brewing. I finally bought my first corny kegs and was wondering if I could backsweeten the cider with concentrated apple juice after fermenting for two weeks and add it to a keg without having to add potassium sorbate. I used 3068 for the yeast. Will the taste just ferment away? Thanks!
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CvilleKevin
Well-Known Member
If you cold crash before backsweetening you wont get further fermentation.
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CvilleKevin
Well-Known Member
Finally! I got my hands on some Northern Spy #2 cider apples yesterday! The orchard did not have very many #2s, but I got enough to make about 3 gallons, to which I added about a gallon of Gala (for aroma) and a gallon of Jonathon (for a little more tartness). So now I have a 5 gal batch of Northern Spy, Gala Jonathon mix bubbling away with some S04.
The juice tastes great. The NS apples themselves were not quite as tasty as I remembered last season. I think they might have benefited from another couple of months in cold storage, but since these apples are in short supply around here, that wasnt going to happen. We'll see in a month or so if it was worth the effort.
The juice tastes great. The NS apples themselves were not quite as tasty as I remembered last season. I think they might have benefited from another couple of months in cold storage, but since these apples are in short supply around here, that wasnt going to happen. We'll see in a month or so if it was worth the effort.
RugenBrau
Well-Known Member
Kevin,
Just curious.....What is the OG of that last batch and at what SG will you crash it?
Just curious.....What is the OG of that last batch and at what SG will you crash it?
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CvilleKevin
Well-Known Member
OG was 1.050 and pH was 4.0. I'll probably crash it around 1.008 or 1.010. I'm also thinking of stopping the previous S04 batch around the same point and not let it get as dry as what I was planning. That way I can compare the two at similar fg and see if its worth the extra effort to get more Northern Spy juice next year.
edit - too late, I just checked the Cortland-Gala-Mac-S04 batch and it is already at 1.000 after six days! Damn, I wanted this to be a dry batch, but not this dry. It was still fermenting so I crashed it. It tastes pretty good for so dry. No sweetness at all up front, but nice body, a decent amount of apple, and not too much acid in the finish. I think my dry drinking friends will like this one, but I really wish I had checked it last night.
edit - too late, I just checked the Cortland-Gala-Mac-S04 batch and it is already at 1.000 after six days! Damn, I wanted this to be a dry batch, but not this dry. It was still fermenting so I crashed it. It tastes pretty good for so dry. No sweetness at all up front, but nice body, a decent amount of apple, and not too much acid in the finish. I think my dry drinking friends will like this one, but I really wish I had checked it last night.
Kevin, after you cold crash do you let it get up to room temp before kegging or do you keg it cold? Sorry for all the questions, I'm just new at this and wanted to get everything right.
Thanks! Kerry
Thanks! Kerry
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CvilleKevin
Well-Known Member
Kerry, usually I let it go up to room temp and get a little more clear for a couple weeks, and make sure that the ferment doesnt start back up. However, if I dont have anything on tap, I'll rack it right into the keg after the crash
mjspears
New Member
Kevin, I have a 4 gallon batch that I've cold crashed too late...what's the best way to salvage? Fresh juice, 1 camden/gallon, 3 lbs. orange blossom honey, started with s-04 but no activity after 3 days, so shook and added wyeast 3184. Started at 1.060, fermented out real fast at 5 days, then crashed at 1.000. So tart is undrinkable at this point. Cysers take a while to mellow, right?, but would like reasonable sweetness at some point.
Mike
Mike
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CvilleKevin
Well-Known Member
Mike - Did you mean Wyeast 4184? That yeast makes a very good dry cider, but it will probably not be drinkable until next summer. I've made several batches with this yeast and had the same experience as you, in that they were all too tart to be drinkable for many months. They didnt get drinkable until the spring and werent really good until the summer. I've never tried to backsweeten the 4184 batches, but I suppose it can be done. 4184 is tough to crash though, so if you backsweeten, you'll want to drink it soon.
I've found that its actually kinda useful to have a few batches that dont become drinkable until the summer, because I wont be tempted to drink them all over the winter. I realize this doesnt help you now though. I'd recommend saving at least some of this batch till next summer and maybe start a new batch with the S04.
Catching the cider at the right point at this time of the year is tricky unless you have a way to keep them cool and slow down the ferment. Of the 6 keg batches I started a couple weeks ago, I ended up crashing 4 of them lower than I wanted to go. We had a couple of hot days and they went from a little too sweet to nearly dry in 24 hours.
I've found that its actually kinda useful to have a few batches that dont become drinkable until the summer, because I wont be tempted to drink them all over the winter. I realize this doesnt help you now though. I'd recommend saving at least some of this batch till next summer and maybe start a new batch with the S04.
Catching the cider at the right point at this time of the year is tricky unless you have a way to keep them cool and slow down the ferment. Of the 6 keg batches I started a couple weeks ago, I ended up crashing 4 of them lower than I wanted to go. We had a couple of hot days and they went from a little too sweet to nearly dry in 24 hours.
mjspears
New Member
Kevin - supply company markets it as 3184 but only 4184 is reflected on wyeast.com so thinking it probably was 4184. So this batch will be long term. Should be safe to bottle right...can't be much sugar left to ferment.
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CvilleKevin
Well-Known Member
Mike - its the sweet mead yeast, right? In that case, yes, its safe to bottle at 1.000, although you might want to give it another week or two in the secondary just to make sure it doesnt move. You could add a little priming sugar if you want, as I doubt that it would ever get much below 0.998 between now and next summer.
mjspears
New Member
Kevin, yes is sweet mead yeast. Going to secondary tonite. Thanks for your help.
ivanoharris
Member
Looking at some options in the next week that include Granny Smith, Jona Prince, Jona Gold, Pink Lady, and Fuji. Didn't use the Fuji or Jona's last year, any thoughts?
Just bought a used Buon Vino Mini-Jet filter-pump on ebay, I plan on using this in lieu of cold-crashing and / or chemicals and/or keeving. We shall see how it goes, got my finger's crossed.
Just bought a used Buon Vino Mini-Jet filter-pump on ebay, I plan on using this in lieu of cold-crashing and / or chemicals and/or keeving. We shall see how it goes, got my finger's crossed.
This may have come up before, but are any of you worried about the pesticides they spray on the apples. I am mostly an organic guy, but I would think this would be particularly important in making cider. Have any of you ever noticed off flavors or stuck fermentation that you thought might be from the chemicals.
The reason I ask is that I am getting ready to make some more cider and I am having a problem finding Organic apples that aren't 2 hours away. Just wondering what everyone's thoughts were on this.
The reason I ask is that I am getting ready to make some more cider and I am having a problem finding Organic apples that aren't 2 hours away. Just wondering what everyone's thoughts were on this.
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