The Death of Sour Beers?

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JacktardBrewmeister

The Mad Zymurgist
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
78
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Location
Hermosa Beach
I know I don't post regularly and when I share recipes they are always mad science like creations that should be abominations, but they turn out amazing and I win awards for making them and I am a level 3 Cicerone so I have a pretty good idea about what I am tasting. With that said, I need to get this off my hairy back.

Where I live (in Hermosa Beach California), I am surrounded by pretentious sociopaths who drink the devils piss. This commentary is not about bashing sour beers as a whole, but the complete loss of the point of such a beer. In a neighboring set of cities (Torrance/Gardena) there are 16 breweries and three more moving in within the year. They are pissing out sours like it's no ones business and they have been doing it for about 5 years or so now and their sours are the worst. Most of them are disgusting abominations of life and I have no problem throwing some of these dumps under the bus (I'm lookin' at you Phantom Carriage... your sours have never been good).

Not just them, but almost every brewery excluding maybe one or two are doing sours wrong (one of them being the Braury in Placentia which is 30 miles from me and Monkish which is close by and their sours are good to tolerable) and the hipsters just suck them up dry, or they USE TO. Things are slowly starting to change and even at the Los Angeles Beer Festival featuring 75 breweries, after talking to the owners and brewers at all of them, I have possibly learned a deep, dank, dark secret.

Breweries are making sour beers that are terrible because they don't really care about them and they are trying to keep par with the demand. After 5 years of observation it has dawned on them that they don't have to work hard to produce them anymore and if they turn out bad they can still sell them all the same. The MAIN consumers for these beers, the hipsters, (for the sake of the discussion I'll refer to these troglodytes as 'Hipsters' from here on out) are drinking and praising any sour you put in front of them with few exceptions.

Now for the secret. The sours are no longer selling. People are not sucking them down in the droves that they did 5 years ago and places famed for their sours (like Monkish for example) have far more IPA's, DIPA's, and TRIPA's on the menu and the sours have been reduced down to 2 to 3 sours out of 20 taps where some breweries have removed them altogether. Some breweries have even sold off their brewery to other breweries for going down the sours rabbit hole and hyper spending to keep up with the fad that WAS sours.

The owners and brewers at LA Beer Fest pointed out that the fad was dying down much like the over-hyped barrel aged stouts and belgians that were aged in oak FAAAAAAAR to long and were, on average, terrible. Many of them even joked about how they could make a cheap terrible stout and put it on oak and turn around and sell it for top dollar and the hipsters of that time, 10 years ago, sucked those down en mass too. I have said from the get go that hyper-oaked stouts and sours, in general, are garbage and I believe I feel vindicated in this as time has gone on.

Now, to be specific. I am not bashing sours in general, it is more of an observation of the industry in a place where it is booming. The breweries that didn't play the "sour" game are still in business making damn good beer (and some not so good). While the ones who had a huge focus in sours are doing them a LOT less and bringing in more IPAs to replace them to stay relevant while others flat out went out of business and sold to other breweries. Most of the places specializing in sours, ironically, can't even make good IPAs and standard beers to begin with.

Has anyone else noticed the decline of sours in the marketplace? I have also noticed the hipsters in Los Angeles are moving on to DIPA's and TRIPA's and that is starting to grow awkwardly more common. Perhaps most of these strange beer fads are really just a bunch of almost broke college students running around drinking whatever they are told is trendy regardless of actual quality and taste. Let's talk about this!
 
I suppose business is just that, business...which is a tough pill to swallow sometimes. I’m conflicted because I agree wholeheartedly with your observations. But, I think there are valid arguments about the value of exposure and passion associated with this hobby.

Personally, I stay away from the above mentioned establishment and choose to support places that have a broad selection of well made “traditional” beers. If there’s an ESB or and English style on the menu that’s bonus points. A diverse menu with one well made sour (preferably not kettle soured), NEIPA, and IPA gets my repeat is my $$.
 
You can say the same thing about every beer style, and pretty much every other product sold as a commodity (food, clothing, cars, furniture, puppies, etc).
Products are made just quality enough to make a profit.

-Realist
 
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I can only hope this is the end of the sour fad. Still haven't had one I truly liked. Mostly just for the novel experience.
 
I like a good sour like Cuvee des Jacobins (available at Craft Beer Cellar in Torrance), but have yet to taste one at a local brewery I liked. I much prefer the local Pale Ales, IPA's and saisons. However, I don't fault the local breweries for figuring out how to make a buck. That's why we are so lucky to have so many breweries in the South Bay and why so many bars and restaurants have added taps of craft beer. Let the hipsters subsidize this luxury for us. I'm old enough to remember when there was just Bud, Miller, Coors and other crappy beer available on tap at those bars and restaurants that even had taps. When I accidentally discovered Najas at the Redondo Pier in the 80's (When Naja and her husband still owned it), I thought I'd died and gone to heaven because they had 777 different beers with 77 taps. And most of those were fairly traditional, just from different parts of the world. Little did I dream that some day we could have so many "micro-breweries" in our own backyard turning out so many beers.

As long as the hipsters fall in love with something else and continue to support the local breweries, they can drink whatever they want.
 
I think the problem with sours is the blanket terms that takes in a complex, funky, multi-year barrel aged beer that brings something new with every sip, alongside one-dimensional, easy drinking 'kettle' type sours. Whilst I quite like a kettle (or fast) sour (quite refreshing to drink in bulk on a hot summers day), they should be cheaper and easier to make than an APA or IPA, but unfortunately are often priced more like a high-end craft beer (they are in Australia, anyway....maybe not elsewhere).
 
If it's the death of mediocre sours, I wouldn't be too upset. I wouldn't be surprised if breweries were putting little work into them, as the majority I taste are very one dimensional and make me think more of eating a jolly rancher than drinking a beer. They never did -quite- take off like some people predicted, many even saying it would be the "next big thing" after IPA. Instead we just get more IPA.

I don't think the wild ferment and/or mixed culture stuff that is quality will ever die. The great stuff from Belgium as well as awesome American takes from Jolly Pumpkin, Allagash, and others are quality and I'm happy to have them around, even though I only drink a sour here and there.
 
Only one sour has ever passed my lips willingly. I've never been a fan.
I took one sip from a sample of fruit beer from one of my local shops. The rest got poured on the ground.
Every once in a while you have to share with the ants and fruit flies...
 
Since they've likely been around longer than "clean" beers, I doubt sours are going anywhere anytime soon. That said, it is a wide-ranging term. Comparing a Rodenbach Grand Cru or a New Belgium La Folie to the stuff the brewery near me is cranking out (stuffed with lactose and strawberry puree) is unfair.
 
It's okay, with the boom of small breweries, MOST of them are turning out product that is mediocre at best anyway, not just the sours, but all beers (or should I say the 75% of what they produce that is just "let's throw some mediocre base beer together and dry hop the ever-loving crap out of it, and people will buy it, because *TRENDY*).
I don't even try the hop-forward beers anymore when I go to a brewery, because despite the fact that NEIPAs are ridiculously easy to make, most of them are just not very good.
Show me a brewery than makes a good dark mild or cream ale or classic German Pils, and I'll show you a brewery worth visiting.
 
I hope the fruited milkshake hazy IPA trend dies a lot quicker death than sours...
I'm making one of those right now. I'm actually pretty excited about it.

I have no strong opinion on sours. I've had Cascade and Propolis which I believe are some credibly well-crafted, long-term aged sours and comport the style well, but just as @RPh_Guy said, every style can be churned out and ruined by lack of skill or care.
 
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The biggest issue is that a lot of these breweries tried to go with a trend and do "quick" sours or kettle sours.

I don't think sour beers are going anywhere. They're not going to be the "in" trend because they don't make sense financially. The breweries that do them make them as a passion and you can tell the difference between those brewers and the ones that just tried to keep up.
 
Breweries.
Beers.
Beers within any particular style.
Level of service.
Quality of food served.
.
.
.

Take your pick of any group. It goes here.

nd.png
 
@JacktardBrewmeister - right there with you buddy. I have yet to try a new production sour that I really enjoy and I've never been a fan of the oxidized flavor of barrel-aged beers.

The Dallas Oberver recently ran an article on local breweries producing craft lagers and praising the return of "normal" beer again. I'm a little curious to see if the next trend in brewing might be lagers and pilsners. They're kind of an underserved category IMHO.
 
I never even knew that sours were a fad. Or that they were even popular.... It might be a west coast thing.
In the Ohio valley, they only picked up a year or two ago....

I don't see an issue with the sour fad anymore than the IBU race, giant barrel-aged bombers, the 1,000 IPA sub-styles, or the haze craze.
 
I like fads. Fads let us try new things, and people dig into new styles, and we all learn stuff. Learning what sucks is valuable, too.

Some fads fade away. Some of them make lasting contributions. I don't want doctrine to suffocate innovation. I would rather have a constant deluge of new fads in the marketplace than a steady diet of classic styles only.

I live in a fad-prone area and never have a problem finding something I want to drink, old or new style. And anything I can't find, I have a shot at making myself.

I suffered with the West Coast IPA fad, now all y'all can suffer with the NEIPA fad that I enjoy. And maybe someday, I will find a sour that I like. Anything is possible. ;)
 
I like beers brewed “the hard way”.

In my opinion, many of the new breweries are just terrible. I think the reason IPAs get away with things is high levels of hoppiness hide many flaws. I order a Pilsner typically when I am at a new brewery, it is amazing how many of them can’t get that right. The reason I try a Pilsner is that it hides nothing. Wow I love to see the Greek diversity of breweries, I think that there is going to be a major culling of the bottom half.

I think your analysis of sours is just a microcosm of a much larger problem.
 
I never even knew that sours were a fad. Or that they were even popular.... It might be a west coast thing.

I’m in New England and I’ve seen the fad.
But that’s all it is.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s great that the style got it’s 15 minutes in the sun, but the fact that it became the fad of the hipster trend-seekers (who ironically like to think they are above trendiness) was more of a turnoff than sour beer itself.
I’ve had a small handful of worthy ones, but they remain a novelty and occasional item. Never something I would reach for first.
 
I like beers brewed “the hard way”.

In my opinion, many of the new breweries are just terrible. I think the reason IPAs get away with things is high levels of hoppiness hide many flaws. I order a Pilsner typically when I am at a new brewery, it is amazing how many of them can’t get that right. The reason I try a Pilsner is that it hides nothing. Wow I love to see the Greek diversity of breweries, I think that there is going to be a major culling of the bottom half.

I think your analysis of sours is just a microcosm of a much larger problem.

Totally agree. Probably 50% of the new breweries that have popped up in the last 3-4 years SHOULD go out of business in the next 3-4 years.
Just because you make drinkable homebrew doesn’t mean you can do it on a commercial scale. When your friends tell you “you should go pro!” don’t believe them. They’re the same ones who tell you you don’t look fat in those jeans...
 
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I know I don't post regularly and when I share recipes they are always mad science like creations that should be abominations, but they turn out amazing and I win awards for making them and I am a level 3 Cicerone so I have a pretty good idea about what I am tasting. With that said, I need to get this off my hairy back.

Where I live (in Hermosa Beach California), I am surrounded by pretentious sociopaths who drink the devils piss. This commentary is not about bashing sour beers as a whole, but the complete loss of the point of such a beer. In a neighboring set of cities (Torrance/Gardena) there are 16 breweries and three more moving in within the year. They are pissing out sours like it's no ones business and they have been doing it for about 5 years or so now and their sours are the worst. Most of them are disgusting abominations of life and I have no problem throwing some of these dumps under the bus (I'm lookin' at you Phantom Carriage... your sours have never been good).

Not just them, but almost every brewery excluding maybe one or two are doing sours wrong (one of them being the Braury in Placentia which is 30 miles from me and Monkish which is close by and their sours are good to tolerable) and the hipsters just suck them up dry, or they USE TO. Things are slowly starting to change and even at the Los Angeles Beer Festival featuring 75 breweries, after talking to the owners and brewers at all of them, I have possibly learned a deep, dank, dark secret.

Breweries are making sour beers that are terrible because they don't really care about them and they are trying to keep par with the demand. After 5 years of observation it has dawned on them that they don't have to work hard to produce them anymore and if they turn out bad they can still sell them all the same. The MAIN consumers for these beers, the hipsters, (for the sake of the discussion I'll refer to these troglodytes as 'Hipsters' from here on out) are drinking and praising any sour you put in front of them with few exceptions.

Now for the secret. The sours are no longer selling. People are not sucking them down in the droves that they did 5 years ago and places famed for their sours (like Monkish for example) have far more IPA's, DIPA's, and TRIPA's on the menu and the sours have been reduced down to 2 to 3 sours out of 20 taps where some breweries have removed them altogether. Some breweries have even sold off their brewery to other breweries for going down the sours rabbit hole and hyper spending to keep up with the fad that WAS sours.

The owners and brewers at LA Beer Fest pointed out that the fad was dying down much like the over-hyped barrel aged stouts and belgians that were aged in oak FAAAAAAAR to long and were, on average, terrible. Many of them even joked about how they could make a cheap terrible stout and put it on oak and turn around and sell it for top dollar and the hipsters of that time, 10 years ago, sucked those down en mass too. I have said from the get go that hyper-oaked stouts and sours, in general, are garbage and I believe I feel vindicated in this as time has gone on.

Now, to be specific. I am not bashing sours in general, it is more of an observation of the industry in a place where it is booming. The breweries that didn't play the "sour" game are still in business making damn good beer (and some not so good). While the ones who had a huge focus in sours are doing them a LOT less and bringing in more IPAs to replace them to stay relevant while others flat out went out of business and sold to other breweries. Most of the places specializing in sours, ironically, can't even make good IPAs and standard beers to begin with.

Has anyone else noticed the decline of sours in the marketplace? I have also noticed the hipsters in Los Angeles are moving on to DIPA's and TRIPA's and that is starting to grow awkwardly more common. Perhaps most of these strange beer fads are really just a bunch of almost broke college students running around drinking whatever they are told is trendy regardless of actual quality and taste. Let's talk about this!

Reminds me of the "IPA" craze how long ago. I'm not all that into them myself. I can tolerate a few in the IBU of high 40's range,1 or 2 in the near 50's. Some with IBU's in the 80s to me are undrinkable but ...there are people out there that like them and will buy anything produced with the "more is better" view on hops, so as small of a target audience there seems to be, one exists.
FWIW- Dogfish head brewery puts out a good session sour called SeaQuench- lime juice, black limes and sea salt. I was skeptical and then we were looking for a poolside drinker in this southern heat and humidity. I cant keep it around long enough.
On the flip side-
Just remember ,there are people who think Natural Light is a good beer .
Good post.
 
Does anyone else see irony in calling people pretentious and then complaining about what types of beer someone else enjoys? Or knocking a business in a capitalist economy for CAPITALIZING on a fad?

Maybe it's just me.

I knew within the first few lines where he bragged about being a cicerone and turned around and called other people pretentious that the rest of the text would be utterly worthless, self-serving drivel. Did not disappoint.
 
I have had some absolutely heavenly sours the past few years and some that made me feel like Mike Tyson hit me in the stomach while I swallowed a rodent that was trying to claw its way up my throat. Like all beer there is a range of good and bad examples. I feel lately alot of breweries have just jumped on the bandwagon though and have been sacrificing quality. Truly good sours remind me alot of wine. They require more long-term care and a keen sense of taste for judging how to blend and/or when to bottle. It seems in this fast growing market most breweries feel they don't have time for that and it has been showing.
 
FWIW- Dogfish head brewery puts out a good session sour called SeaQuench- lime juice, black limes and sea salt. I was skeptical and then we were looking for a poolside drinker in this southern heat and humidity. I cant keep it around long enough.
On the flip side-
Just remember ,there are people who think Natural Light is a good beer .
Good post.

I happened to be visiting the brewery when they first released "Sea Quench". Like all the beers produced by DFH, it was well crafted and I liked it 'OK', even bought a sixer when I got home. It reminded me of a well-crafted Berliner Weiss, which I also like 'OK' once in a while. Can't comment on the fad-induced "sours" since I've steered clear of them, but if they're anything like the plethora of half-baked Heady Topper wannabes chasing yet another fad, I agree with the O.P. I'll not be trying any of them any time soon.

Brooo Brother
 
Farmhouse beers came into fashion with the sours. I think of them as sour light. Who rode whose coattails? They're good, though. Shiner and Rahr made some. I liked Rahr best of the two.

Jester King is king. Their process defaults them to making sour and farmhouse styles.

Ah, normal beer.

For "normal" humans with "normal" taste.
Good luck with that.

Now "True Beer®" on the other hand...

A good American lager is just the right beer sometimes.
 
Tap slots are hyper competitive.
If you are a bar with 6 taps & one of them goes through a sixtel in a month while the others blast through 2 a week, whatever beer is on the slow tap is on the chopping block.
That being said, the only well selling sour made by a local around me is a once yearly seasonal.
 
I realize I'm risking being labeled as a "pretentious sociopath", but who cares what beer sells the most or is popular at any given time? Brew what appeals to you, drink what you like, be happy for breweries that can sell swill to "hipsters" and maybe have one beer you like.
 
A well-made fruited sour is a no-brainer for most breweries still, and has started to become a staple. I say that as someone who doesn't like them. On the other hand, I think people are definitely are over sours done as a hyped special release, and have been replaced with Hazy IPAs. Not that excellent sours are no longer made or coveted, they just don't carry the same weight with the trendy craft beer community.
 

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