Submitted beer to county fair...disappointed

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dcummings1998

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I entered a beer to our county fair, and I had high hopes; I took the Easiest Beer I Have Ever Made recipe and gave it a few minor tweaks, which turned out awesome. It fermented a bit high, but all in all people seemed to really like it.

I was shocked to see that I got 26.2 out of 50 points, and 117th out of 173 entries.

Some comments I got:

"Sour and astringent aromas"

"Some green apple (flavor)"

"Thin body"

People noticed phenolic, solvent-like, and acetaldehyde flavors.

But in reality, it was my second batch EVER, it fermented at like 82 degrees, and it was extract, so I guess I'm not TOO upset.

It was a great way to get feedback, and is a nice learning experience. If you get a chance, submit a bottle of brewtowski to your local fair!
 
jbsg02 said:
how do you like the beer?
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It's worth at least 40 points, in my opinion.

I understand what you're getting at; so long as I dig it (and my girlfriend digs it), then it's a good beer. It would be nice to get better feedback from neutral parties, but no sweat.
 
I mean it fermented high and it sounds like they noticed that? Can't complain, like you said it's a great way to get feedback. Second batch and you got a 26.2? I would have been happy to get that on my Kolsch, which was like my 10th batch. And if you like it, then great.
 
If you could get your fermentation temp down, all else being equal, you'd probably have scored MUCH higher.
 
dcummings1998 said:
It would be nice to get better feedback from neutral parties, but no sweat.
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Dude, you did get feedback from neutral parties. Those judges are pros, I'd say it would be hard to get better feedback. I would love to get that kind of critical comment - My friends just smile and say "That's nice", but what the heck does that mean? Those judges' comments may seem harsh, but they are invaluable.

Anyway, congrats on your efforts. I'm sure next year you'll score much better.
 
frazier said:
Dude, you did get feedback from neutral parties. Those judges are pros, I'd say it would be hard to get better feedback. I would love to get that kind of critical comment - My friends just smile and say "That's nice", but what the heck does that mean? Those judges' comments may seem harsh, but they are invaluable.

Anyway, congrats on your efforts. I'm sure next year you'll score much better.
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It would be nice to get BETTER feedback, meaning more positive comments. The judges are mostly pros (I was asked to judge, but couldn't), and you're right that there's not a better audience than that; however, I was hoping more of them would really like it.

Here's to a better showing next year!
 
Good job putting yourself out there and letting folks taste your beer. You bring that temperature down and your beer will get sooo much better it's ridiculous. Keep refining things and enjoying the hobby. Good times.......
 
dcummings1998 said:
It would be nice to get BETTER feedback, meaning more positive comments. The judges are mostly pros (I was asked to judge, but couldn't), and you're right that there's not a better audience than that; however, I was hoping more of them would really like it.

Here's to a better showing next year!
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You got the BEST feedback possible. You agree you fermented way too high and you're whining about the judges critiquing those faults?!?! Take a piece of humble pie and learn from it and improve your beer.
 
dcummings1998 said:
It's worth at least 40 points, in my opinion.
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Did you brew this one completely to style? Was the fermentation temp controlled? Did you make a starter? How did you treat your water? 40 is a pretty****ing awesome brew. Yeah, I know you made it. I got a 40 from one judge on 5 different beers at my first comp, and even that didn't get me best new brewer at my clubs main comp for the year. Gotta take the feedback and come back better next time around. Also remember, the beer might be great, but if it's not to style, it's not going to score well.
 
I just took the BJCP class and can say that actually a 26 is a pretty decent score, but you need to read the comments carefully. I've never had any of my beers judged but a beer judge friend told me he'd give my California Common a 27. Why? Because he didn't think it was to style. Note that it was a great tasting, enjoyable beer, he just felt it missed the mark. It took me a couple minutes to actually grasp what he had said and that the 27 was in reality a compliment.

As far as getting a 40. Some day I hope to get a 40, but I need to say there is a certainly element of luck because the 40 isn't just for being a great beer, it is for being a virtually flawless example of that style. The slightest things (including things out of your control) might convince a super-taster that your beer has slightly missed the mark.

Just keep in mind you got free constructive criticism. These guys aren't judging to put other people down. They're doing it to help brewers become better. Just put it all in perspective and don't take their criticism the wrong way. The positive comments don't really help (other than encourage you), the criticism can help you identify problems and grow as a brewer.
 
justins2582 said:
You got the BEST feedback possible. You agree you fermented way too high and you're whining about the judges critiquing those faults?!?! Take a piece of humble pie and learn from it and improve your beer.
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I guess I had a different definition of "better" in mind (you're the second person to comment on it). I was not saying that the comments were not useful, and I was not trying to whine.
 
dcummings1998 said:
It's worth at least 40 points, in my opinion.

I understand what you're getting at; so long as I dig it (and my girlfriend digs it), then it's a good beer. It would be nice to get better feedback from neutral parties, but no sweat.
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I am not trying to be mean, but c'mon...you brewed "easiest beer recipe" and fermented 10 degrees too high. Do you really think you deserved a score of "excellent?"
 
Mongrel said:
Did you brew this one completely to style? Was the fermentation temp controlled? Did you make a starter? How did you treat your water? 40 is a pretty****ing awesome brew. Yeah, I know you made it. I got a 40 from one judge on 5 different beers at my first comp, and even that didn't get me best new brewer at my clubs main comp for the year. Gotta take the feedback and come back better next time around. Also remember, the beer might be great, but if it's not to style, it's not going to score well.
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I wasn't being literal when I said it was worth 40, I was just saying that I really liked it. I'm not sure that more than 5 beers got 40 points, by the way.

I totally understand that the feedback is actually positive, and I'll make a few changes and see what happens next ;)
 
The score sounds like it was spot on. Your beer (and thus scores) will get better with experience. Being a bit disappointed is a natural reaction, but hopefully now you can put things in perspective a bit.
 
rexbanner said:
I am not trying to be mean, but c'mon...you brewed "easiest beer recipe" and fermented 10 degrees too high. Do you really think you deserved a score of "excellent?"
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I have sort of been loose with my wording, as has been pointed out. I would like to say it is "really good". Absolutely not "excellent" or "outstanding". But that's why I submitted it- to see what I need to work on.
 
Seb said:
Did you notice the same thing as they did? Or do you feel they're completely off?

Not sure why the green apple flavor is a negative tho, one of the most popular beer from a microbrewery here in Québec tastes like this. http://www.unibroue.com/en/beers/ephemere_apple/product
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Sometimes off-flavors are only considered "off" in certain styles of beer. The phenols and esters you get in a Belgian would be criticized in an APA, for instance.

But by "green apple" flavor, they're talking about the flavor imparted by acetaldehyde, often a result of fermenting too warm. It is considered an off-flavor in every single style of beer (and style is VERY important in competitions), though a flavor described as "green apple" could actually be considered "to style" if it is a fruit beer specifically made with green apples.

And while not many such beers exist, Ephemere happens to be one of those beers. Though it's widely considered to be one of Unibroue's poorest offerings anyways (especially among their regular lineup), and, having had it myself, it's not that great a beer. And perhaps more interesting: the apple character is so subtle and indistinct that I'd never have known there was even fruit in the beer unless I was told, whereas acetaldehyde is often a very noticeable flavor with a slightly acetic sourness (especially in the aroma) that gives it a MUCH more obvious impression of green apples with that bit if sourness even contributing the distinct tartness of green apples... in other words, it seems way more like green apple than even the beer MADE with green apples! Although if you made a green apple fruit beer and it had a lot of acetaldehyde, judges would still pick up on it.

So basically, it comes down to two things: First,"green apple" is merely something to compare to, as comparing off-flavors to other tastes or aromas is the easiest way to communicate such flavors... pretty much every off-flavor will be described this way (band-aid, skunk, medicinal, wet cardboard, horse blanket, butterscotch, etc).

Secondly, even if it IS a taste that can be considered good, and even intentionally incorporated into other beers, if it doesn't belong in the style which he's competing in, it will be criticized. Heck, roasted malts are an important part of many beers, often giving flavors described as roasty, coffee, chocolate, burnt, etc, which are often even VERY desirable, but if your beer has a coffee taste to it and it's being judged as a pilsner, it WILL be criticized heavily.
 
dcummings1998 said:
I guess I had a different definition of "better" in mind (you're the second person to comment on it). I was not saying that the comments were not useful, and I was not trying to whine.
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I didn't think you were whining. You just wanted a better reaction to your brew, who wouldn't? I think criticism like you received is good though, particularly when it's given by people who know a little about what they're offering criticism on. It's that honestly that gives you something to build on, hopefully improving your brew.
 
If I were you I would pour yourself a glass of the beer you submitted. Look at it, describe it and write down what your think. Smell it (without drinking) and describe it. Sip it and describe the mouthfeel. Then taste it and describe it including any aftertaste. Then give an honest overall impression.

Then compare your comments to those from the judges.

Then go back and reevaluate the beer in light of their comments to see if you can also see/smell/taste what they noticed.

If you do this over time, you will become better at forming honest and accurate evaluations of your own beer.

I try to start this process before I get scoresheets back and then compare that way.

Doing this makes entering competitions extremely useful (at least for me).
 
ayoungrad said:
If I were you I would pour yourself a glass of the beer you submitted. Look at it, describe it and write down what your think. Smell it (without drinking) and describe it. Sip it and describe the mouthfeel. Then taste it and describe it including any aftertaste. Then give an honest overall impression.

Then compare your comments to those from the judges.

Then go back and reevaluate the beer in light of their comments to see if you can also see/smell/taste what they noticed.

If you do this over time, you will become better at forming honest and accurate evaluations of your own beer.

I try to start this process before I get scoresheets back and then compare that way.

Doing this makes entering competitions extremely useful (at least for me).
Click to expand...

That's a pretty good strategy. The problem is that I'm still really new to brewing (first batch brewed in May), so I know very little. The good thing about that is that I've so much to learn. It's not a bad situation to be in, actually :)
 
Dude, a 40 is pretty awesome beer and you expected that with an extract fermented way too high?
 
Meh. 26 is still a "good" beer, IIRC

40 is very hard to get.

Just fix the ferm temp and try again. And enter your beer in a couple of comps if you can. As you start scoring higher, you will need several opinions to really start finding things to improve.

Consistently reaching the 30s takes some practice and tweaking.

And a lower score doesn't necessarily mean a beer is "bad". It could be out of style. But you know that apple flavor is a fault, so...
 
Homercidal said:
And a lower score doesn't necessarily mean a beer is "bad". It could be out of style. But you know that apple flavor is a fault, so...
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Definitely. I scored a 28.5 on a really good Irish Red that was more a Irish Black. Both judges said well-made beer (one said "delicious") and they both said too dark/roasty for the style.

In future comps, I'm just not going to enter anything into a specific category that isn't pretty darn close to the style. My hopped-up American Wheat got dinged for too hoppy, etc.
 
I enetered two beers in a comp. Both scored 35 (which I was pleasantly surprised about) one took 3rd place the other did not place at all.

The 3rd place winner tasted great to me, the other beer, meh, not one I would want to keep around but I had the yeast so I brewed it!

I guess what I am getting at is it there is a big difference between what we like and what is required for style.

Keep on brewing and in time your beers will improve!
 
40 is a REALLY high score, and remember... your second batch ranked better than nearly a third of the other entrants (even with a hot ferment). Sounds like the kind of good, honest feedback we all need.
 
Heres the things, you think the beer is good?

Just imagine how good your future beers will be once you start to learn and get control of brewing. :mug:
 
dcummings1998 said:
I guess I had a different definition of "better" in mind (you're the second person to comment on it). I was not saying that the comments were not useful, and I was not trying to whine.
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Do you come from an area that gives a ribbon or trophy to everyone who signs up?

Those are great comments. Things you should take in stride and learn from. I don't want to give beer to my friends and for them to say its great...perfect..pat on the back. My friends actually would tell me how it is. Honesty is the best policy and you can learn from it...

It takes alot to put yourself out there....it takes alot to be judged. With that being said....learn from it and get back on that horse! GL
 
Yeah, to reiterate on that point, a lot of the specific flavor flaws they mentioned are not things that are easy for brewers (especially new brewers) to pick up on. I have never noticed acetaldehyde until I happened to be drinking with a bunch of HBT folks and Ray McNeill, who pointed it out in someone's homebrew. People usually ***** that judges' feedback is too generic, or conflicts with the feedback of the other judges; in this case, they gave you some specifics to work with as you nail down the brewing process.

The acetaldehyde, BTW, may clean itself up as the beer conditions. It's usually a "young beer" flaw.
 
One of my previous entries received a 37 and still did not medal (4th), but there were still comments for improvement. You can score very high and still get critical feedback. I've taken medals with less. It's fun to get the medals/ribbons/prizes, but the point is see how well you can hit a target with your brew. The judges go a long way in helping you figure out where and why you missed the mark. I have a lot of brews that I simply won't consider entering, because 1) they're not to style (still delicious); 2) they're too tasty to pay someone else to drink--I don't need anyone to tell me it's good. There are others that I am trying to hit a style and want to see how well I succeeded. As mentioned already, BJCP points don't necessarily equal flavor.
 
BrewThruYou said:
Dude, a 40 is pretty awesome beer and you expected that with an extract fermented way too high?
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I DIDN'T ACTUALLY THINK I DESERVED A 40!

I was not being serious when I said that, which I already mentioned.

It'll be a 40 when I get the fermentation temp nailed down ;)
 
Jayman931 said:
Thats the important part! :mug:
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You're absolutely correct. I've gone out of my way to make a couple beers I otherwise had no interest in making, just to keep her happy. She's more willing to be my assistant if there's a nice Blonde or Wit in the fridge for her :)
 
the_bird said:
40 is a REALLY high score, and remember... your second batch ranked better than nearly a third of the other entrants (even with a hot ferment). Sounds like the kind of good, honest feedback we all need.
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I'm going to remember this. You're right- in the grand scheme, it did pretty well. Hell, a 26 is considered "good".

One judge wrote "admittedly, this isn't a style I like". Tough to woo someone with a beer they dislike. Also, I'm not sure it's actually a Belgian Wit, but no other category seemed to match.

If there's anything redeeming, it's that I beat both of the beers my buddy made, and he's all-grain and has been doing it for years.

Here's to getting back to the kitchen and working on the next entry!
 
When I entered my blueberry summer ale in a competition, I wasn't sure what to put it in, since for a fruit beer you need a base style, I picked the wrong style when I entered it and I scored a collective 25 on it, all the judges stated that it was a fantastic tasting beer but that it just did not fit the base style I had it listed as and that it would have scored MUCH higher if it were correctly entered.

I scored a 25 with a great beer because I had an incorrect base style listed, the thing to remember is that judging is meant to pick out flaws and off flavors for that particular style, it is just a way to test your skill by brewing a set of style guidelines and doing it as perfectly as possible, it really has nothing to do with whether it is a great tasting beer or not.

My first competition I was hoping to get a great score, like the judges would take a sip and go into a similar rave like Ralphie's teacher (in his day dream) in 'a Christmas Story'
It turned out that it was not quite to style and I was given feedback as to why it was dinged, I learned a bit once I got over my hurt pride.

You will do better, just remember it is all about style guidelines, some of the best beers I have ever had, both homebrewed and commercial would score poorly in a comp because they were brewed to be great drinking beers, not to fit in a category.
 
azscoob said:
like the judges would take a sip and go into a similar rave like Ralphie's teacher (in his day dream) in 'a Christmas Story'


.
Click to expand...

I love imagining this happening. Well said!
 

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