Extract Beers Are Cleaner and Tastier Than My All-Grain Beers

[nickbarley]

I've been brewing for 5 years now, using a BIAB Anvil Foundry system, and have had mediocre results with my all-grain brewing. My AG beers always seem to have a subtle harsh, grainy and flabby taste to them. I know this because I have submitted these entries to local and national contests, and gotten feedback from BJCP judges indicating they tasted something "harsh" but could not identify the off-flavor. Even with this "off-flavor" I have had beers score as high as 34/50, which is technically Very Good based on the scoring guidelines.

Despite the judges feedback, I am assuming this harsh and "unclean" taste that I am getting can be attributed to my high alkaline water and mashing process. My pH is often above 5.6, even after lactic acid additions, at the end of the mash.

I tested this theory out by brewing a German Pils primarily with extract and partially mashing with 2-row, munich and acid malts. The result is totally clean, free of that harsh graininess, and a very enjoyable beer. This beer tastes exactly like it should.

I really do not want to primarily brew extract beers, but I can't spend all that time and effort going to the store for R.O water every time I want to brew a pale lager (which is ALL the time).

P.S - Yes, I have my cities water profile, use campden tablets to remove chlorine/chloramine, have Bru'n Water for calculations, use Brewfather for recipes, and have tried R.O water with my AG batches. Trust me - I've tried almost everything except for boiling my tap water and decanting or using slaked lime and decanting.

Any thoughts on how to fix my AG batches?

 

[hotbeer]

If your beer is murky looking which some politely just call haze, then that might be what is being tasted. Work on letting all the suspended yeast and other stuff fall out of suspension.

IMO, very few murky looking beers taste good to me. I want to be able to see light from the other side of the glass without it getting diffused.

I don't know if that taste being described equates to water issues. Others certainly will know. I still don't do any additions to the water I use.

 

[VikeMan]

You say your mash pH is above 5.6. Have you tried adding more acid (or calcium salts) to get it lower?

Are you sparging with your high alkalinity water, untreated?

It might help if you post your water report here (at least the relevant parts). (Also, how recent is your report?)

 

[nickbarley]

If your beer is murky looking which some politely just call haze, then that might be what is being tasted. Work on letting all the suspended yeast and other stuff fall out of suspension.

IMO, very few murky looking beers taste good to me. I want to be able to see light from the other side of the glass without it getting diffused.

I don't know if that taste being described equates to water issues. Others certainly will know. I still don't do any additions to the water I use.

These beers were clear and lagered for a few weeks before submission. The yeast and particulate were settled out when tasted.

 

[nickbarley]

You say your mash pH is above 5.6. Have you tried adding more acid (or calcium salts) to get it lower?

Are you sparging with your high alkalinity water, untreated?

It might help if you post your water report here (at least the relevant parts). (Also, how recent is your report?)

I do a full volume BIAB, no sparge, which I'm also wary of. Maybe the full volume mash is driving up the pH?

I usually only add lactic acid before mashing in, maybe 1 or 2 grams of Gypsum and/or CaCl, and don't often add lactic acid after measuring the pH. I could try upping the acid/calcium salts though for an experiment.

Here is the most recent water report from October:

Alkalinity-Total (ppm as CaCO3): 51
Total Hardness (ppm as CaCO3): 80
pH: 9.02
Cl: 39
SO4: 17.1
Ca: 19
Mg: 8

 

[DBhomebrew]

I do a full volume BIAB, no sparge, which I'm also wary of. Maybe the full volume mash is driving up the pH?

Here is the most recent water report from October:

Alkalinity-Total (ppm as CaCO3): 51
Total Hardness (ppm as CaCO3): 80
pH: 9.02
Cl: 39
SO4: 17.1
Ca: 19
Mg: 8

Do they give those single values or are you averaging a range? I know my water district provides a range and max value for each parameter over the course of a year. Very much not helpful.

 

[VikeMan]

I do a full volume BIAB, no sparge, which I'm also wary of. Maybe the full volume mash is driving up the pH?

I usually only add lactic acid before mashing in, maybe 1 or 2 grams of Gypsum and/or CaCl, and don't often add lactic acid after measuring the pH. I could try upping the acid/calcium salts though for an experiment.

Here is the most recent water report from October:

Alkalinity-Total (ppm as CaCO3): 51
Total Hardness (ppm as CaCO3): 80
pH: 9.02
Cl: 39
SO4: 17.1
Ca: 19
Mg: 8

Ok, that is definitely not water with high alkalinity. The water's pH is high, but alkalinity is not, so it should be a breeze to manipulate. I suppose it's possible the report isn't reperesentative of what's currently coming out of the tap.

You mentioned that you dont want to have to buy R.O. water every time, but have you tried any batches starting with RO and building from there? It might help determine if there really is an issue with your tap water.

 

[nickbarley]

Ok, that is definitely not water with high alkalinity. The water's pH is high, but alkalinity is not, so it should be a breeze to manipulate. I suppose it's possible the report isn't reperesentative of what's currently coming out of the tap.

You mentioned that you dont want to have to buy R.O. water every time, but have you tried any batches starting with RO and building from there? It might help determine if there really is an issue with your tap water.

I haven't had my water tested or run tests on it, but those values are pretty consistent with past monthly reports.

It's been a while since I've tried R.O, but I might need to revisit that to compare side by side.

 

[nickbarley]

Do they give those single values or are you averaging a range? I know my water district provides a range and max value for each parameter over the course of a year. Very much not helpful.

I posted the Effluent values from the report. It says "All results are in parts per million & Samples Measured are Dissolved Ions."

 

[nickbarley]

Another point to add - the uncarbonated "green" beer always seems to taste better than after I force carbonate and condition the beer in the keg.

 

[jcav]

I use R/O water for all my batches and use lactic acid to bring the ph down to the proper range. You should try a batch with R/O water and see if you make a better beer. At least you will see if there is a difference and you might be able to rule out the water as the problem. Or you might find out it is the water.

John

 

[VikeMan]

I posted the Effluent values from the report. It says "All results are in parts per million & Samples Measured are Dissolved Ions."

Hmm... I think "effluent" means the water that goes from the treatment facility back into the ground water, or river, or wherever it goes. I don't think I'd assume that tap water drawn from the water table/reservoir/whatever bears a close resemblance.

 

[nickbarley]

Hmm... I think "effluent" means the water that goes from the treatment facility back into the ground water, or river, or wherever it goes. I don't think I'd assume that tap water drawn from the water table/reservoir/whatever bears a close resemblance.

Interesting. Maybe it's time to send a sample to Ward labs

 

[BigDave1303]

I'm no expert but interesting that the extract beer comes out better as per the title of this thread.
I read somewhere that you should use RO water if brewing extract / kits as the extract has already been produced with the correct water profile, using tap water will add additional salts etc to the brew depending on your supply profile.

 

[VikeMan]

I read somewhere that you should use RO water if brewing extract / kits as the extract has already been produced with the correct water profile, using tap water will add additional salts etc to the brew depending on your supply profile.

If one doesn't know the mineral content of the water used to make the DME/LME, I think using distilled/RO water is generally good advice, at least for beginners. Why add salts to an unknown base?

However, some extract brewers (even without necessarily knowing the original content for sure) do experiment with salt additions for various beer styles, based on the taste/mouthfeel/etc. of the finished beer.

I think @BrewnWKopperKat (IIRC) can add to the extract + salts discussion.

 

[TwogunRocky]

Another point to add - the uncarbonated "green" beer always seems to taste better than after I force carbonate and condition the beer in the keg.

Do you have a check valve on your Co² line/s?.
Just a thought if you've had any blow back of wort into your lines?
That sitting in the lines would definitely affect the Co² carbonating your fresh beer.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

[...] the extract has already been produced with the correct water profile [...]

It has been produced with a water profile. The profile varies by brand.

Brewers make flavor salt additions because they find that the default profile isn't 'correct' for all styles.

However, some extract brewers (even without necessarily knowing the original content for sure) do experiment with salt additions for various beer styles, based on the taste/mouthfeel/etc. of the finished beer.

I think @BrewnWKopperKat (IIRC) can add to the extract + salts discussion.

The basics are covered in How to Brew, 4e and Brewing Engineeering, 2e.

The "Advanced Extract Brewing" topic has some additional information (but generally doesn't repeat what is in the two books). I may add a 'best of salt additions' reply over there over the next couple of days.

---

eta: For ideas of the mineral content in 'extract', take a look at this comment (link Brewers Friend topic).

 

[brewbama]

You say you have used RO water to brew all grain, and you use Brew’n Water as your water spreadsheet of choice. Can you give the salt additions you used in your strike and sparge?

Where I am headed with this: My goal is to narrow the focus solely on mash pH. That means RO water with 1 tsp CaCl or Gypsum (or a combination of the two to equal 1 tsp) for each 5 gal water treated along with 1-2% acid malt or other weak acid to hit room temp pH 5.3 +/-.1 for me. Try a batch without adding anything else (aka very soft water). I don’t use anything else but you can add anything you want to the boil kettle.

Also, you say you BIAB. Do you use direct heat to maintain mash temp? I used to use a RIMS tube and when I switched to HERMS my beers improved. I believe the heating element in direct contact with the wort was detrimental to my beers.

I mounted a sedimen filter, carbon filter, and RO filter on a shelf in my laundry room next to my ‘slop’ sink’ for ~$100. I attach the feed line to the spigot and the waste line down the drain. I collect water in gal milk jugs or in the kettle. I use the water for brewing, tabletop ice maker, coffee maker, tea maker, humidifier, and my cat’s drinking water. For me, it’s worth the expense.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

The huskiness can also be caused by too high of temp when mashing and milling your grain too fine.
Check/recalibrate your thermometer.
Try a larger crush.

 

[VikeMan]

The huskiness can also be caused by too high of temp when mashing and milling your grain too fine.
Check/recalibrate your thermometer.
Try a larger crush.

It seems to me that a temp high enough to extract seriously excess tannins would also be an enzyme destroyer, i.e. he'd be getting some very non-fermentable worts.

Regarding milling the grain too fine, I more or less subscribed to that theory for years. But then BIAB became a big thing, and (a lot of) BIABers mill to virtual dust, apparently without serious tannin issues.

 

[JoeSpartaNJ]

Another point to add - the uncarbonated "green" beer always seems to taste better than after I force carbonate and condition the beer in the keg.

Have all these beers been carbonated with the same tank? Could it possibly be a bad tank of CO2?

Are all your kegs and beer lines clean?

 

[nickbarley]

Do you have a check valve on your Co² line/s?.
Just a thought if you've had any blow back of wort into your lines?
That sitting in the lines would definitely affect the Co² carbonating your fresh beer.

I don't have a check valve, and you know what, there does seem to be some gunk in the CO2 line... I think I'm going to seriously evaluate all of my cold-side fermentation equipment and make sure it's clean.

 

[nickbarley]

You say you have used RO water to brew all grain, and you use Brew’n Water as your water spreadsheet of choice. Can you give the salt additions you used in your strike and sparge?

Where I am headed with this: My goal is to narrow the focus solely on mash pH. That means RO water with 1 tsp CaCl or Gypsum (or a combination of the two to equal 1 tsp) for each 5 gal water treated along with 1-2% acid malt or other weak acid to hit room temp pH 5.3 +/-.1 for me. Try a batch without adding anything else (aka very soft water). I don’t use anything else but you can add anything you want to the boil kettle.

Also, you say you BIAB. Do you use direct heat to maintain mash temp? I used to use a RIMS tube and when I switched to HERMS my beers improved. I believe the heating element in direct contact with the wort was detrimental to my beers.

I mounted a sedimen filter, carbon filter, and RO filter on a shelf in my laundry room next to my ‘slop’ sink’ for ~$100. I attach the feed line to the spigot and the waste line down the drain. I collect water in gal milk jugs or in the kettle. I use the water for brewing, tabletop ice maker, coffee maker, tea maker, humidifier, and my cat’s drinking water. For me, it’s worth the expense.

It's been a while since I've tried using R.O water with my AG batches, but I will revisit R.O again for my next batch. I generally do full-volume BIAB, and try not to squeeze the bag. Usually, 1-2 grams of Gypsum and/or CaCl added to my strike water before mashing in and 1-2 ml of lactic acid 88%.

Yes - direct heat at about 50% power during the mash while recirculating the wort. I've never tried a HERMS or three-tiered system before, but I've always been curious to try.

I did recently look into R.O systems to install in my basement. Like you, I have a slop sink right next to my brewing equipment, so that would be ideal. Just wondering about how much waste water is produced and if that's worth it.

 

[nickbarley]

Have all these beers been carbonated with the same tank? Could it possibly be a bad tank of CO2?

Are all your kegs and beer lines clean?

I exchange the empty CO2 tanks each time, so they are different. But, I did buy my regulator used and have never cleaned the CO2 line. There is some gunk in there. Is that possible for a CO2 line to contaminate a batch? These beers are don't seem to be "sour" from lacto, but I can't be 100% sure.

I use a tap that mounts directly to the liquid post and I clean/spray that thoroughly before each use.

 

[brewbama]

I was in the same boat. I began to look at it this way: everything that uses water to clean with, wastes water. Washing the car, washing clothes, washing dishes, washing me. It all ‘wastes’ water. Just add this to the list.

You could collect the waste to use elsewhere to reduce impact.

“Yes - direct heat at about 50% power during the mash while recirculating the wort. I've never tried a HERMS or three-tiered system before, but I've always been curious to try.”

I got a small 16 qt Stainless Steel pot, installed a Blichmann HERMS coil, a heat element in the lid and control it with an Inkbird. (See below) I recirculate thru it during the mash. Then transfer to a kettle sitting on an induction cooktop to boil.

I recirculate thru the same coil to chill the wort By removing the hot water i used during mash and replace it with cold water (several times).

I like the beer a lot better with no direct contact with a heating element. …but I know many system use direct heat. Just me I guess.

 

[nickbarley]

I was in the same boat. I began to look at it this way: everything that uses water to clean with, wastes water. Washing the car, washing clothes, washing dishes, washing me. It all ‘wastes’ water. Just add this to the list.

You could collect the waste to use elsewhere to reduce impact.

“Yes - direct heat at about 50% power during the mash while recirculating the wort. I've never tried a HERMS or three-tiered system before, but I've always been curious to try.”

I got a small 16 qt Stainless Steel pot, installed a Blichmann HERMS coil, a heat element in the lid and control it with an Inkbird. (See below) I recirculate thru it during the mash. Then transfer to a kettle sitting on an induction cooktop to boil.

I recirculate thru the same coil to chill the wort By removing the hot water i used during mash and replace it with cold water (several times).

I like the beer a lot better with no direct contact with a heating element. …but I know many system use direct heat. Just me I guess.

View attachment 808262

View attachment 808263

View attachment 808264

Excellent set up! Certainly something for me to consider if I do eventually pinpoint the cause of this off-flavor. More R.O experiments to come.

 

[doug293cz]

Yes - direct heat at about 50% power during the mash while recirculating the wort.

What is the controller type (Mfg & model #) being used? What is the cycle time of the PWM power control? What is the voltage and rated power of the element? Where is the temp probe that provides input to the controller relative to the heating element and wort pickup for recirculation?

There are a lot of factors about the detailed configuration of the heating control system that can in some cases cause local overheating of the wort, which can drive nasty flavors. These troublesome cases often are the result of time delays between when the hottest wort heats up and when the hotter wort temp is detected by the control system. Or, they can be due to excess power during temperature maintenance or heat-up. In general, you want the shortest cycle time for PWM that the controller will allow (short element firing times to avoid overheating), the controlling temperature probe as close to the element as possible (to sense the hottest wort ASAP), the controlling temp probe in the flow pattern of wort moving past the element towards the recirc pickup, and the minimum power limit in the controller that will allow you to maintain mash temps during a rest, or give you the heat-up rate desired when stepping (trying to ramp too fast while stepping can lead to local wort over heating.)

I use a tap that mounts directly to the liquid post and I clean/spray that thoroughly before each use.

Do you periodically break down the tap for thorough cleaning of all the internal parts separately, rather than just trying to clean the assembled tap? There is a cautionary tale here.

Brew on

 

[nickbarley]

What is the controller type (Mfg & model #) being used? What is the cycle time of the PWM power control? What is the voltage and rated power of the element? Where is the temp probe that provides input to the controller relative to the heating element and wort pickup for recirculation?

There are a lot of factors about the detailed configuration of the heating control system that can in some cases cause local overheating of the wort, which can drive nasty flavors. These troublesome cases often are the result of time delays between when the hottest wort heats up and when the hotter wort temp is detected by the control system. Or, they can be due to excess power during temperature maintenance or heat-up. In general, you want the shortest cycle time for PWM that the controller will allow (short element firing times to avoid overheating), the controlling temperature probe as close to the element as possible (to sense the hottest wort ASAP), the controlling temp probe in the flow pattern of wort moving past the element towards the recirc pickup, and the minimum power limit in the controller that will allow you to maintain mash temps during a rest, or give you the heat-up rate desired when stepping (trying to ramp too fast while stepping can lead to local wort over heating.)

Do you periodically break down the tap for thorough cleaning of all the internal parts separately, rather than just trying to clean the assembled tap? There is a cautionary tale here.

Brew on

It's an Anvil Foundry 10.5 gal, that runs on 240v. The temp probe is at the bottom of the kettle along with the heating element underneath (in the base).

I haven't broken down the tap yet, but that is something I will check and clean.

 

[nickbarley]

Do you periodically break down the tap for thorough cleaning of all the internal parts separately, rather than just trying to clean the assembled tap? There is a cautionary tale here.

Brew on

I'll be damned - I took apart my ball lock valve after reading this cautionary tale, and it looked exactly like the one in the story! Nasty stuff, but I cleaned it all off. Hopefully, this will eliminate one of the variables for the next batch!

 

[nickbarley]

Hmm... I think "effluent" means the water that goes from the treatment facility back into the ground water, or river, or wherever it goes. I don't think I'd assume that tap water drawn from the water table/reservoir/whatever bears a close resemblance.

Here are the Ward Labs results I just got back. Very similar to the city's monthly analysis.
pH 8.3
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 162
Sodium, Na 20
Calcium, Ca 26.3
Magnesium, Mg 6
Total Hardness, CaCO3 90
Sulfate, SO4-S 6
Chloride, Cl 22
Bicarbonate, HCO3 77
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 65

Cations / Anions, me/L 2.7 / 2.4

Overall, I believe what I'm tasting in these AG batches is either polyphenols or chlorophenols, which are causing astringency and/or phenolic off flavors. I'm going to revisit R.O water again, and see if that will resolve it. Otherwise, I'm back to chasing down an infection.

 

[TheMadKing]

Here are the Ward Labs results I just got back. Very similar to the city's monthly analysis.
pH 8.3
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 162
Sodium, Na 20
Calcium, Ca 26.3
Magnesium, Mg 6
Total Hardness, CaCO3 90
Sulfate, SO4-S 6
Chloride, Cl 22
Bicarbonate, HCO3 77
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 65

Cations / Anions, me/L 2.7 / 2.4

Overall, I believe what I'm tasting in these AG batches is either polyphenols or chlorophenols, which are causing astringency and/or phenolic off flavors. I'm going to revisit R.O water again, and see if that will resolve it. Otherwise, I'm back to chasing down an infection.

With that water profile, I think you could probably have success with phosphoric acid and campden tablets to neutralize the ppm CaCO3 and chlorine. I used to brew with water that was 350ppm CaCO3 and it could be ok if I boiled it first (precipitated out a visible layer of calcium carbonate) and then used acid and campden to get my mash pH in line.

 

[nickbarley]

With that water profile, I think you could probably have success with phosphoric acid and campden tablets to neutralize the ppm CaCO3 and chlorine. I used to brew with water that was 350ppm CaCO3 and it could be ok if I boiled it first (precipitated out a visible layer of calcium carbonate) and then used acid and campden to get my mash pH in line.

That's interesting. Do you boil off the CaCO3, let it cool naturally, and decant the water into another vessel?

 

[TheMadKing]

That's interesting. Do you boil off the CaCO3, let it cool naturally, and decant the water into another vessel?

Yep exactly, but used my transfer valve rather than decanting and transferred into a cooler for BIAB.

 

[SanPancho]

before you start doing anything i would make a plan.

1- clean EVERYTHING. kettle bottom have scale on it when its dry? taps need cleaning? beer/gas lines? fermenters and all its tiny parts and hard to reach places? lots of brass or copper in your gear?

2- calibrate everything. thermometer. kettle temp readings. pH meter. gas gauges.

3- then plan out how to track down/isolate the problem

sounds like water is the easiest place to start. try the RO for a while, with the SAME exact recipes you used before. check craigslist/facebook/ebay for a little used RO system if you have a few bucks you can spare.

then start looking into these other ideas/ingredients/processes.

but definitely make a plan. i mean literally write it down on paper, post it where you brew. and stick to it.

 

[nickbarley]

before you start doing anything i would make a plan.

1- clean EVERYTHING. kettle bottom have scale on it when its dry? taps need cleaning? beer/gas lines? fermenters and all its tiny parts and hard to reach places? lots of brass or copper in your gear?

2- calibrate everything. thermometer. kettle temp readings. pH meter. gas gauges.

3- then plan out how to track down/isolate the problem

sounds like water is the easiest place to start. try the RO for a while, with the SAME exact recipes you used before. check craigslist/facebook/ebay for a little used RO system if you have a few bucks you can spare.

then start looking into these other ideas/ingredients/processes.

but definitely make a plan. i mean literally write it down on paper, post it where you brew. and stick to it.

Good call on making a plan. I'll see if I can make a checklist and print it out.

 

[nickbarley]

Yep exactly, but used my transfer valve rather than decanting and transferred into a cooler for BIAB.

Have you ever tried using slaked lime to precipitate out the calcium carbonate? I saw Kai's wiki on that process, and doesn't require boiling.

 

[TheMadKing]

Have you ever tried using slaked lime to precipitate out the calcium carbonate? I saw Kai's wiki on that process, and doesn't require boiling.

No I never tried it. I moved across the country to an area with really good water so I ended up not needing to explore the process any further sorry