Only 3 Wires - What can I do?

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nobadays

nobadays

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Hopefully one of you knowledgeable people can help me solve my dilemma. My new eBIAB Rig is pretty well completed ( https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=582004 ) Brew stand built, Control panel wired, and Kettle fittings all in place (still need to leak test).

Pulled out the drier this morning and I found a 3 wire plug/receptacle. Took it apart and it contained 1 black, 1 white and a bare copper ground wire - (see pic.) From what I read, I need 4 wires - 2 hots, 1 neutral and a ground to make the spa panel GFCI operate correctly. Can I split the bare copper ground and use it twice (neutral and ground go back to the same bus bar) or do I need to run a new neutral from a nearby 120v outlet (14/2 not 10 guage that is in the 240v drier plug) or do I hook a ground onto the nearby water pie and use the current bare copper as my neutral line?

Thanks in advance!!

Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Only 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 
No you should not do that. First off did you verify that the bare ground wire they are using is actually a ground, and they are not using it as a Neutral?

My personal preference would be to do this correctly and run the correct size wire and associated breaker.
3 wire (plus bare copper wire) appropriate gauge, running from your rig to the breaker box. Correct size breaker. I looked quickly at your build. It looks like you are going to be looking to control pumps etc from your panel, and it appears you want to be able to control a 20 amp receptacle?

Here is my advice: (Switch to a 4500w element)
run to a 30AMP breaker. 10GA 3 wire from breaker box to control panel. Fuse breaker and relay inside of control panel. 20Amp breaker switch inside panel, and a 15amp breaker inside panel to run your pump(s). Thats what I have and I have no issues, since I run a 4500w element in my 20g bk and 15g HLT.

I see you mentioned 5500w CAMCO element. That will draw at max over 22Amps, and then you will have to upgrade all components from there if you still want to add on control of pumps.

You will need to go to 8ga wire and a 40 amp fuse in the breaker box. I'd go with a 30Amp in the control panel and a 15Amp next to it for your pumps.
 
Bowtie... Thanks for the reply. I just looked at the breaker for the drier and it is a 30A. The panel is on the far side of the house so running a new line to it is not an easy task. I really think that the control panel as wired - following one of P-Js designs - should handle the load it was designed to do. You are correct that I have wired 1 receptacle as a 20A - for a possible future RIMS unit. That said the circuitry is currently not in there to handle the 20A. I have left space to put a "mini relay" that will be wired between the receptacle and switch when/if I decide to make that circuit 20A. This way the 20A load would not be going through the switch but handled through the relay.

I might have found a solution... The auxiliary electric furnace is in the garage where I brew. I see in my main breaker box 2 - 240v breakers I believe are for the heat-pump and auxiliary heating unit. One is labeled A/C and is a 50A breaker (I know that we have a heat-pump not a stand alone A/C unit.) The other is a 60A breaker labeled FAU... I am guessing this stands for "furnace auxiliary unit" but I'm not sure. I see the "range" and "water-heater" on their own 240v breakers.

If I am correct - must open the furnace breaker/junction box on the wall beside the plenum - I think this may solve my dilemma. The heat-pump/furnace was installed 5 years ago so should be 4 wire... time to investigate!

Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Only 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 
Trace the wire for that 3 prong dryer back to the panel and see if you have a ground or a neutral. Depending on the termination of the ground at the panel they could be the same thing. Older houses and dryer outlets usually had grounds run, only for a short time were neutrals allowed.

The fact that a white wire was used for a hot, while wrong even then, wasn't uncommon. All you technically have to do to mark it as a hot is put black or red tape around it on both ends.

As for the bigger element on the 30A circuit. Technically, per code, you need to leave 20% overhead.. So you can pull 24A continuous. If you have a 22A element (which is about right since my 4500W draws 18A at full blast), you are okay on the 30A circuit. If you run your Chugger off one of the 115V hots and neutral you are then pulling 12A on one side and at full load 14A on the other.. so you would be a little over.. would it be unsafe? You'd have to decide that yourself.. likely not.. but it would be better to run the pump on a separate 115V circuit GFCI nearby...

And this goes around to the original question. If you have Hot-Hot-Ground (HHG), then you'd be much easier and better off to plug the pump into a seperate 115V circuit.. Look at this thread for ideas on how to hook up the Spa panel to a 240V HHG circuit...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=506074
 
I set up my system right by the electric panel, by the way.. though I did tap into the upstairs dryer breaker, so I need to make sure the wife isn't doing laundry at the same time. If you can put your rig near the entrance panel it's pretty simple to add a 4 wire dryer plug nearby too. Good luck.
 
Thanks Undeadfred... Options...maybe options. My best bet is as I indicated in my last post...if the FAU is what I think it is. I would have to make sure the auxiliary electric heat doesn't come on while brewing. I don't think that would be likely as the heat-pump aux heat units - in my limited experience - don't usually kick on unless the heat-pump is malfunctioning or the air temp is so cold heat can't be generated through the heat-pump. I'm in north central AZ - it rarely get that cold here and if it was that cold I wouldn't be brewing in my open garage!

I should add... I have a 50A spa panel mounted to my brew stand that the control panel is wired to. I am using 6/4 wire to go from the spa panel to the control panel... over kill but I had the wire. I will use 6/4 to build my extension cable to plug the unit into the outlet...when I figure out how to get power. (fingers crossed on the furnace!)

I wish I could be next to the panel but it is on the other side of the house...

Off to pull the cover off the furnace breaker/junction box!

Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Only 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 
New Development - Old dilemma...

Well I DO have a 60A service into the garage to feed the auxiliary furnace. I can easily tap into that and put a receptacle in an easy to access location, except... It is 3 wire just like the drier but it looks like #6 wire.

The white (unmarked with black or red tape on either end!) is line #1 - 120V and the black is line #2, and again a bare copper ground wire connected to a small bus inside the disconnect box. I traced the wires back to the main panel and they do connect to the 60A breaker and the copper ground wire connects to the main ground bus...right alongside all of the other grounds AND white neutral lines.

Does this change anything? Can I grab these 2 hots then hook up my ground and neutral to the bus bar inside the furnace disconnect box?

Thanks again!
Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Only 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)

IMG_1469.jpg
 
Technically yes you can. It will still see it as 2 phases of electric. Someone please check the validity of my statement. I'm thinking outside the box so to speak.
 
FAU... i looked it up, means Forced Air Unit. So this "may" power the auxiliary heating element in the furnace but does for sure power the fan that pushes air through the system. It seems to me that 60A is WAY over kill to run a squirrel cage fan. Still enough left for running a eBIAB?

Still wondering if I can hook the ground and neutral to the ground bus bar in the furnace disconnect... the ground from that bus bar runs right back to the main box bus bar where all of the grounds and neutrals are connected...no separate neutral bus bar. (Thanks Bowtiebrewery! ... we wait for someone with more
electrical knowledge!)
Thanks

Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Only 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 
If you tap any of your existing 3 wire feeds and then use 120V receptacles on your panel at the end, you are carrying current on the ground in the original feeder. That is not technically correct. Look up "spa panel wiring" and you will see plenty of examples of people doing that. It works but as an electrician, I cannot recommend it.




It seems that all of your existing wiring was run from "the other side of the house". Why cant you do the same with a new feed?
 
Thank you Ischiavo.... I could run another line from the main panel to where I need it. However the extra $200 isn't in the budget. Could I just run a single wire back to the box for my neutral? That would cut the cost significantly. What guage would you recommend if that makes sense?

Thanks
Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Only 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 
I don't see an option that is really correct for you except for a new feed. Look up 6-6-6-6 aluminum SER cable. A length of that and a breaker in your panel and you will have a proper feed.
 
Hmmm.... may have to bite the bullet.. Thank you!

Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Only 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 
nobadays said:
FAU... i looked it up, means Forced Air Unit. So this "may" power the auxiliary heating element in the furnace but does for sure power the fan that pushes air through the system. It seems to me that 60A is WAY over kill to run a squirrel cage fan. Still enough left for running a eBIAB?
Click to expand...

Your first statement is indeed correct. That is powering electric elements that are inside your Air handler. They energize in the event that your thermostat calls for heat and it cannot overcome the heat loss. Its meant to be used in Heat Pump systems, and in electric heating systems that utilized forced hot air.

Definitely not overkill on that breaker. Those heating units suck power like no tomorrow.

Edit just realized you are in Arizona... How many times a year do you actually turn on your heat? I would be willing to bet based on your location alone, that your primary heating is electric correct?
 
nobadays said:
Better yet... could I grab a neutral out of a nearby outlet instead of running all the way back to the main?
Click to expand...

You're almost there with this line of thinking.

Nobadays, you technically do NOT have any 120V in that FAU box. There is 240V with a ground to trip the breaker if a short occurs.

Can you separate the 120V circuit in your panel? If so, just wire a connector for an extension cord and plug that into any available outlet.

You'll have two feeds.
1) High current 240V (must use 60A to match the FAU box)
2) 120V accessory's and control

'da Kid
 
'da Kid... Thanks for this! Yes I could separate the 120v from 240v circuits but it would be a major PITA! I just did exactly what you quoted here... grabbed a neutral from a near-by receptacle, TEMPORARILY!! This was a quick fix but I have noted that the conduit that carries the 2 hots and ground to the FAU appears to have enough room to pull another line through it. So... as soon as I am able I am going to pull a #8 RED line through the conduit then move the WHITE wire in the main panel to the neutral bus bar and then use the RED line as my 2nd hot to feed both my outlet and the FAU.

A lot of head scratching... and a lot of HELP from this group... Thank you ALL!!
Now if I can get one of my weldless bulkheads to quit leaking I'll be brewing beer SOON!

Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Only 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 
Bowtiebrewery...

Thanks again for all the input!

Yeah I'm sure when that heating unit kicks on it would need that 60A breaker. That said, we have a heat-pump so the electric heating is 'backup" for when the heat-pump can't draw enough heat from the ambient air... when the temps drop below about 30 degrees (what the HVAC guy says for my heat-pump - YMMV) So.... I just can't brew beer when it's cold outside (we are north central AZ at 5000' so it gets that cold often in the winter - but not often during the day.)

I will have to monitor things for awhile to see that I'm not stressing the electrical system... but I think I'll be OK if I don't brew when there is a chance that tthe auxiliary heat may come on. This same breaker also feeds the forced air fan unit but my research shows they only pull about 2-3A so that is no problem.

As noted above, I'm going to pull another hot wire to the FAU s I can switch the current white lead to a neutral. I'm pretty confident my temporary fix - drawing a neutral of a near-by receptacle will work but I'm not thrilled with it...

Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Only 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 
nobadays said:
'da Kid... Thanks for this! Yes I could separate the 120v from 240v circuits but it would be a major PITA! I just did exactly what you quoted here... grabbed a neutral from a near-by receptacle, TEMPORARILY!! This was a quick fix but I have noted that the conduit that carries the 2 hots and ground to the FAU appears to have enough room to pull another line through it. So... as soon as I am able I am going to pull a #8 RED line through the conduit then move the WHITE wire in the main panel to the neutral bus bar and then use the RED line as my 2nd hot to feed both my outlet and the FAU.

A lot of head scratching... and a lot of HELP from this group... Thank you ALL!!
Now if I can get one of my weldless bulkheads to quit leaking I'll be brewing beer SOON!

Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Only 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
Click to expand...

Ding, Ding, Ding . . . . we have a winner. :ban:

Give us some info on your present conduit/flex run and we can make some suggestions on pulling that 3rd wire. We also need to make sure we aren't overfilling said run: http://sparkyjohn.com/pipefill/pipefill.pdf

Are you over-tightening the bulkhead fitting and squeezing the seal out-of-shape?

Happy Brewing,
'da Kid
 
'daKid... a winner for now I hope, still haven't fired it up yet! I looked at the PDF that you supplied...I think we can do it! It is a 3/4" conduit with, presently 2 #6 (or #8 but I think #6) THHN conductors and a smaller ( I think #12) ground wire. According to the chart I should be fine to have 4 conductors in that conduit. I'm hoping I can rent a fish tape from Home Depot as I don't have one that could do this job. I'm not sure if they ran conduit all the way or just into the attic then out of the attic to the disconnect. The temps have been in the mid 90's lately so getting up in the attic and digging through 18" of insulation isn't high on the list either!

Yeah I know I'm over tightening the bulkhead. That and I'm trying to just use a stainless flat washer on the inside along with a 90 degree ell that my whirlpool tube is screwed into. I started just snug and kept tightening it hoping I could find the "happy place" but no luck. Tomorrow I will take it back apart and put the proper nut - with the recess that keeps the silicone O'ring in place on then screw my ell onto that. I think that will solve the leaking problem. Always a challenge bringing a new project online!

Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Only 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 
Don,
Pulling through flex is never easy. Yours sounds like a two-person job. :D

If you find it's a continuous piece, I'd proceed as follows.

1)Remove the fittings on both ends. You have to have a straight shot into/out of the flex.
2) Get some pulling line and attach it to the end of one of the existing cables.
3) While pulling this existing cable, apply pulling lube to the pulling line. This will lube the inside of the flex as you go.
4) When through, attach your Red cable to the pulling/wire combo.
5) Now the fun, pull and lube the two cables as they're fed back through the flex.

Cursing at the flex is expected.

Do be shy with the lube. It will clean up easily before making your connections.

'da Kid

aid241719-728px-Fish-Wires-Through-a-Conduit-or-Pipe-Step-4.jpg
 
'daKid... Thanks for the tutorial! I only have experience fishing wires through walls and through holes in log structures - never conduit. I am dealing with about 70'-80' of rigid conduit - not flex - so I hope that will make it easier. I will take the conduit apart at the bends hoping that will help.

On another note, leaking bulkhead fixed! Always amazed that things work so well when you use the correct parts! Only thing is after putting the nut on the inside of the kettle then screwing the ell on... it points counter(anti)-clockwise. Unless someone tells me you can't whirlpool in this direction...it stays!

Kettle has 7 gallons of water in it, PID set up instructions on my screen, time to energize this puppy!

Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Only 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 
I ran into the same problem when building my brew rig. I was renting and the only only outlet I had was as you described. As a result my brew rig has a 240V and a 120V plug coming out of the back. The 240V feeds the two hot lines and a the ground into a spa panel and controls the following

  • Two heating elements, although only one at a time
  • Temp controllers (240V model) which controls the HLT

The 120V for the control panel is completely separate and plugs in through a plug in GFCI. It controls the following in the brew rig:

  • Both two pole Relay switches
  • Both Solid state relays
  • PID temp controller for the HLT
  • Brewing pump
  • Pond Pump

The one unexpected bonus is I can plug the 120V circuit into a timer and have that circuit turn on at a preprogrammed time. With the PID set to a temperature that allows me to transfer the Mash Tun and be at my strike temp, I can have the system preset the night before and wake up ready to mash in. I look at it as gaining 15A of extra power over the 30A provided by the dryer circuit with an easy way to add automation.

Since both power sources are completely independent I don't see any problem with it. Although someone smarter than me on this site may tell me how my brew rig that has run in two different houses for 8 years is unsafe.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Photopilot... sounds like a sweet setup! I am doing eBIAB so all one kettle. It os running right now as I am working on tuning the PID. I went the wrong way on the temperature compensation... so I'm running a little hot. Once the Auto Tune is finished I will readjust temperature for the probe.

I think it is going to be sweet!

Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Only 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 
nobadays said:
It os running right now as I am working on tuning the PID. I went the wrong way on the temperature compensation... so I'm running a little hot. Once the Auto Tune is finished I will readjust temperature for the probe.
Click to expand...

My Autotune never worked right. I guess I could have made some adjustments but I usually run the hot water through the vessel I am aiming to heat up to preheat it and then back to the boil kettle to bring it back up to temp.

I have a new brewrig with larger vessels. I guess it would be a good time to re-autotune to the new system and calibrate to get it right.
 
'daKid... yep, I was following Kal's directions and was trying to use Auto Tune at 155 degrees (he uses 154...) Mine just kept blinking on and off for nearly 40 minutes before I finally switched it off and during that time it would turn the element on and off periodically but was 3-4 degrees hotter than my set point...didn't get that. I figured it would let it get a little cooler than the set point then run it up maybe a degree or two beyond the set point but try to stay where I had it set...not above. I will say I had the temperature compensation set 3-4 degrees (-6 degrees) too low. I think I have that right now.

I wish I understood more of what I read/reading in the PID manual and extrapolating what applies from Kal's directions. This is just a bit above my "geekiness!"

Has anyone written a SIMPLE guide to getting one of these up and running? Or maybe it's just not simple...

Thanks!
Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Only 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 
Auto tune will eventually work. You should have water below your setpoint though so you can ramp up to it and the pid will learn your system. It doesn't hurt to add some cold water once it's up to temp. I believe it has to cycle from below SV to above a certain number of times before auto tune will time out. It took a few runs for me but once I got it, I've never had to mess with it again.

Good news on the conduit. I figured it was a cable.
 
lschiavo... Thanks for the info, I guess I wasn't patient enough! I'm trying to read/understand all I can on the operation of the PID. I think once I get this rig dialed in I'm going to enjoy brewing with it...just kind of tired of the project right now, ready to make beer! I was SO tickled that I had wired everything correctly - according to P-Js schematic - it worked flawlessly when I energized it!

Yeah... that was kind of a "laying in bed moment," Wait! why can't I just pull another line through the conduit? Stoked as I can get it right.

Thanks!
Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Only 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 
Update... Had an electrician out yesterday. The conduit only runs up to the attic then down to the FAU disconnect... the wire just lays in the attic in between. AND it is romex...dang it! So he is going to pull out the old 6/2 with ground and install a 6/3 with ground. Easy run he says...approx $200.00... there goes the money I didn't want to spend but... it will be done right.

BTW - no room in the box to add an independent breaker for the brew rig, he doesn't like sharing the FAU with the rig but will do it. He agreed that the FAU fan motor doesn't pull enough amps to be a problem but... don't brew if there is a chance the auxiliary heat will come on.

Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Only 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 
If you are running new wire consider creating a separate circuit for the brew outlet only. 6 gauge could handle a 50 Amp load and a 50 amp breaker.

You could put a 60 amp spa panel in your brew control box. Feed your box with a 50A plug.
 
Thanks for the input! Photopilot... see above, there isn't room in the main panel for a separate 50A breaker, wish there was. I do have a 60A Spa panel attached to my brew stand. The 240v comes into that via a 6/4 extension cord from my new outlet.

Yep I could separate out the 120v circuits but I spent more than 20 hours wireing that control box so I really want to get it working the way it is... but if all else fails...

Thanks!
Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Less than! 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 
Photopilot.... yep already figured that in. I wish I could but there isn't room.

Don
Primary: nothing
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Less than! 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 
You might want him to install some kind of switch in the panel to disable the FAU so you don't get nuisance trips while brewing. At least figure out a way to ensure the FAU does not engage while brewing.

I read through the entire thread and see you will have 60 amps at your disposal for brewing, which future proofs any Brew rig upgrades, or any reasonable upgrades.

One thing to keep in mind is if you have a 10/4 wire feeding your Brew Panel you need a 30A fuse protecting it. It might be easier to feed your panel with a 6/4 power cord.
 
Photopilot... The 60A that feed the FAU is primarily for the auxiliary heating element for when the air temp is too cold for the heat-pump to extract heat from the air. It would only kick on somewhere in the upper 20's-ish and that doesn't happen very often where we live (N-Central AZ). The only other thing the FAU breaker feeds is the fan for the air handler - which draws around 2-3 amps. leaving lots left over for the brew rig. I just won't brew when it is really cold! Not likely to anyway!

BTW, I do have a 6/4 power cord to the control panel (10/2 to the heating element.)

The electrician finished wireing everything yesterday so I brewed today... went flawlessly! Even managed over 77% efficiency on my first BIAB! Wort cooling right now getting ready to pump to the fermenter.

Don
Primary: Joe IPA clone
Secondary: nothing
Bottled: Oatmeal Stout, APA and Rye IPA
(Less than! 2 cases of homebrew left...gotta get this rig up and running!)
 

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