Adding a 240 volt outlet to my garage.

[iglord]

I'm having some electrical work done this month and going to talk to my contractor about running a 240 volt outlet to the garage so I can avoid having to use the dryer. I figure this outlet could be used for a welder or electric car charger at some point by a future homeowner.

There's space in the panel, but I'm concerned about how the panel in configured. Right now all of the neutrals and grounds are joined to the neutral bus bars. With this setup can I still have a 4 wire outlet ran? I already have the stuff to build a spa panel and was planning on using that as a GFCI/shutoff. I'm still shopping around for an electric brewery system and ideally be able to use systems that allow me to run 120 volt pumps and accessories off of the controller without needing an extra 120 volt input.

Or am I completely misunderstanding this and I can use a non-permanent GFCI Spa Panel with 3 wire coming out of the house and 4 wire output to the controller with ground and neutral bonded within the Spa Panel?

Thanks for any help!

 

[SanPancho]

You should have the electrician install a dedicated ground for your panel. I’m assuming panel is in garage or somewhere close by. It won’t help your existing wiring but any future work will be correctly grounded.

I’ll let licensed professionals here have the final say/opinions, but If you have existing wiring that “ground” to the neutral you effectively have no ground. You’d be better off connecting them to your incoming water main as it at least runs to the actual ground…

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

It’s my understanding you don’t want to tie ground and neutral together in the spa panel. I believe the only place they should tied together would be in the main service panel. I’m no electrician though

 

[doug293cz]

It’s my understanding you don’t want to tie ground and neutral together in the spa panel. I believe the only place they should tied together would be in the main service panel. I’m no electrician though

This is my understanding as well. Also not a licensed electrician.

You want a four wire outlet installed, with the GFCI in the service panel. You could have a disconnect switch installed at the outlet location if you want, but the brewery control panel should have disconnect capability built into it.

If you think you want to use the outlet for a car charger in the future, go with at least a 40A circuit so you can use a 32A level 2 charger. A 30A circuit will only support a 24A charger.

Brew on

 

[easttex]

Your electrician can definitively answer 100% of your questions. Talk to him/her, explain what you want to do, and allow him to develop a solution.

Now...with that said, similar situation: I had the panel changed out at the house I just bought. There was a TT-30 travel trailer receptacle outside the garage. That receptacle lacks a neutral so I had the electrician change that out to a L14-30R receptacle. Now I have a neutral, should I ever need one. I intend to run my welding machine off this receptacle and if I ever decide to brew electrically, I'm wire a spa panel inline to incorporate GFCI protection.

 

[thetick]

It’s my understanding you don’t want to tie ground and neutral together in the spa panel. I believe the only place they should tied together would be in the main service panel. I’m no electrician though

That is my understanding as well. In researching wiring in older houses, it looks like the (US) electrical code moved away from combined neutral/ground wires in the 80’s for safety reasons. The thought being that in the event of a wiring fault/break, the current will always have a return path. Otherwise, if the combined ground/neutral were to break, the only path for the current is to ground out through whatever (or worse, whoever) is connected to the outlet.

My caveat is the same as others: I’m not an electrician.

I’d recommend telling the pro you are hiring exactly what you are trying to do and let him/her develop the solution. Depending on the age of your house and the region, the electrical code may leave latitude for professional judgement. If you are not comfortable with what is proposed, ask a couple more pros and see if they come up with alternate solutions that you are more comfortable with.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm having some electrical work done this month and going to talk to my contractor about running a 240 volt outlet to the garage so I can avoid having to use the dryer. I figure this outlet could be used for a welder or electric car charger at some point by a future homeowner.

There's space in the panel, but I'm concerned about how the panel in configured. Right now all of the neutrals and grounds are joined to the neutral bus bars. With this setup can I still have a 4 wire outlet ran? I already have the stuff to build a spa panel and was planning on using that as a GFCI/shutoff. I'm still shopping around for an electric brewery system and ideally be able to use systems that allow me to run 120 volt pumps and accessories off of the controller without needing an extra 120 volt input.

Or am I completely misunderstanding this and I can use a non-permanent GFCI Spa Panel with 3 wire coming out of the house and 4 wire output to the controller with ground and neutral bonded within the Spa Panel?

Thanks for any help!

The neutral and grounds are all tied together in the main panel but nowhere else such as sub panels. Yes, a GFCI breaker can be installed in the main panel but LOAD side neutral off the GFCI breaker does NOT get tied into the panel ground/neutral bus but remains separate all the way to your outlet.

If you decide to use the spa panel, you WILL use 4 wired and the neutral and ground still get tied to any available bus lugs in the main but they will not be connected together in the spa panel. This is exactly how the spa panel would be wired if it were to be actually used on a spa also.

To be extremely clear, a GFCI breaker has two hots and a neutral IN and two hots and a neutral out. The ground just extends all the way from the main panel bus all the way to the box and never touches the neutral (except for in the main panel). I think I maybe said the same thing five times but this isn't a research paper.

 

[javajoe1981]

I am about to install a 240v circuit to my brewing area in my garage as well... I keep going back and forth between whether I wanted 5500w or 6500w elements. I assume the 6500w elements would require at least 40 amps and might as well just go 50amps at that point. Am I overthinking it, should I just go the traditional 5500w setup with 30amps? Is there any real benefit to going with the 6500w elements?

 

[javajoe1981]

But then I think if I am running new wire I might as well future proof it all and just go with the 50amps and 6/3 wiring...

EDIT - I decided to go with a 50a circuit

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

But then I think if I am running new wire I might as well future proof it all and just go with the 50amps and 6/3 wiring...

EDIT - I decided to go with a 50a circuit

Been there did that.

 

[Valve1138]

If the panel is your main panel, meaning it is the main disconnect for the dwelling, you will have the neutral and grounds bonded and using the same bus bar. This is normal, and to code.

When you get to a subpanel, like the Spa panel mentioned, then you will need to have sperate neutral and ground bars.