Help with Traditional

[lpsumo]

I am struggling

After this defeat (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/10-gallons-stuck-traditional.671955/) I started another batch

I went to Kalispell and found some yeast energizer and figured that might help me out

Used:
6kg honey
5 gallons water
2 packs of D47
2.5t energizer
5t nutrients

OG 1.075 on Dec 4th

I added 1/2t energizer & 1t nutrient every 24 hours. Fermentation seemed to be going really well, I degassed by stirring daily for the first 5 days until gas production slowed.

I checked the SG before leaving town on the 13th, it was 1.065. Got back yesterday, still 1.065

I think I have another dead batch.

Any thoughts?

 

[madscientist451]

What temperature is the room where your mead is located?
What yeast nutrients are being used?
Its somewhat puzzling about why its not fermenting.
Some thoughts are:
Yeast energizer is best used when re-hydrating the yeast. Beyond that, yeast nutrients are used.
The recommended method is to add yeast nutrient 24 hrs after the yeast has been pitched.
I'd try to get the yeast going again by stirring it up and bringing the fermenter to a warmer location, if available.

 

[bernardsmith]

What's the temperature? What's the pH? what's the sell by date of the yeast? How well did you aerate the must? Those are my questions. My observation is that 5t of nutrient in about 6 gallons of must is an enormous amount. Who makes this nutrient? I use about 1/4 t to a gallon. I am not sure what "energizer" does. I never use it. But here's what I would do:
1. Get another pack of yeast and rehydrate this in say, 1 cup of water with either Goferm (it's nutrients designed for rehydrating - rehydrating with standard nutrients will damage or kill yeast cells) or with simply a low concentration of honey or sugar and water (to a gravity of about 1.040).
2. When you know that the yeast is actively fermenting add 1 cup from your stalled batch to the starter and watch.
3. When you know that the batch you added is being fermented (You know because you are measuring the change in gravity) then you add 2 cups from the stalled batch: the idea being that each time the starter ferments the added batch you add the same volume to the volume that is fermenting (doubling the volume each time). This process of transferring from the stalled batch to the starter batch can take a day or more to complete. What the process does is shifts the fermentation away from the batch that may have a systemic problem to a batch that you know does not and you use the volume and energy in the starter batch to swamp any problems in the stalled batch.Try it.

 

[CKuhns]

Reality check:
- Doing the math 6kg of honey (13.25 US Pounds) added to 5 gallons water = roughly 1.075 OG with a total volume of roughly 6 gallons. (Check)
- D47 yeast has an alcohol tolerance of ~14% (I have pushed it greater than 15%) and a temp range of 60 - 68 Deg F (15-20C) You are well within the alcohol tolerance of your yeast. (Check) Temp of your brew area?
- Agree with Bernard for a traditional mead with this yeast sounds like a lot of nutrients. But depends on the nutrient i guess. (I use 2.5tsp Fermaid-O spread out over 4 additions) I only use 1 tsp energizer Go-ferm in a starter if I use it at all.
- pH is important - At this stage should be between 3.6 and 4.6.
- What water did you use? - Anything from a municipality likely has water treatment chemicals in it that could hinder your yeast. Chlorine, fluoride etc.

In addition to what Bernard said...
- Kick your temp up to 66-68DegF
- Check and adjust pH accordingly 3.6-4.6
- Aerate the heck out of it by shaking it or use a lees stirrer and drill a couple times a day until SG of 1.045 or so. (START SLOWLY - Mead fountains are really messy - Think Diet coke and Mentos)
- Give it a couple days and let us know how it is going.

Good Luck

 

[loveofrose]

What is your water source?

 

[dwhite60]

Degass it.

Stick a spoon in it and stir it gently at first to get the CO2 out of solution. It will foam like crazy so be careful. CO2 increases the acidity and will stop your yeast cold.

Should do this twice a day for the first three to five days.

Been there.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[lpsumo]

Thanks for all the replies!

What temperature is the room where your mead is located?
What yeast nutrients are being used?
Its somewhat puzzling about why its not fermenting.
Some thoughts are:
Yeast energizer is best used when re-hydrating the yeast. Beyond that, yeast nutrients are used.
The recommended method is to add yeast nutrient 24 hrs after the yeast has been pitched.
I'd try to get the yeast going again by stirring it up and bringing the fermenter to a warmer location, if available.

Nutrient is from RJS Craft Winemaking. Contains DAP, Yeast Hulls, Vitamin B complex, and Magnesium Sulfate
Energizer is from Brewcraft. No ingredients but claims to be "high in nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorus"

I read so many different things about nutrient and energizer. Couldn't find a basic mead recipe on this site so i improvised.

I gave it a stir and turned up the thermostat a bit, I see some slow bubbles...

What's the temperature? What's the pH? what's the sell by date of the yeast? How well did you aerate the must? Those are my questions. My observation is that 5t of nutrient in about 6 gallons of must is an enormous amount. Who makes this nutrient? I use about 1/4 t to a gallon. I am not sure what "energizer" does. I never use it. But here's what I would do:
1. Get another pack of yeast and rehydrate this in say, 1 cup of water with either Goferm (it's nutrients designed for rehydrating - rehydrating with standard nutrients will damage or kill yeast cells) or with simply a low concentration of honey or sugar and water (to a gravity of about 1.040).
2. When you know that the yeast is actively fermenting add 1 cup from your stalled batch to the starter and watch.
3. When you know that the batch you added is being fermented (You know because you are measuring the change in gravity) then you add 2 cups from the stalled batch: the idea being that each time the starter ferments the added batch you add the same volume to the volume that is fermenting (doubling the volume each time). This process of transferring from the stalled batch to the starter batch can take a day or more to complete. What the process does is shifts the fermentation away from the batch that may have a systemic problem to a batch that you know does not and you use the volume and energy in the starter batch to swamp any problems in the stalled batch.Try it.

Temperature is roughly 15-19C where it's brewing, I read that's great for D47. When I went away the temp probably hovered around 14 or 15 for a few days. I'll keep it a little warmer now.

Yeast should have been good, came in a pack of 10, the best before date is May 2021. I keep all my yeast in the fridge until I'm going to use it then let it come up to room temp before use.

Thanks for the restarting suggestion. You recommended this last time I got stuck and it worked for a little while, then it got to a point where the must stalled out again (1.020) and I couldn't get it going. I managed to save 2 gallons of my 10 though...

I'll bring a sample in to work to figure out the pH. What do you guys use? Strips?

Reality check:
- Doing the math 6kg of honey (13.25 US Pounds) added to 5 gallons water = roughly 1.075 OG with a total volume of roughly 6 gallons. (Check)
- D47 yeast has an alcohol tolerance of ~14% (I have pushed it greater than 15%) and a temp range of 60 - 68 Deg F (15-20C) You are well within the alcohol tolerance of your yeast. (Check) Temp of your brew area?
- Agree with Bernard for a traditional mead with this yeast sounds like a lot of nutrients. But depends on the nutrient i guess. (I use 2.5tsp Fermaid-O spread out over 4 additions) I only use 1 tsp energizer Go-ferm in a starter if I use it at all.
- pH is important - At this stage should be between 3.6 and 4.6.
- What water did you use? - Anything from a municipality likely has water treatment chemicals in it that could hinder your yeast. Chlorine, fluoride etc.

In addition to what Bernard said...
- Kick your temp up to 66-68DegF
- Check and adjust pH accordingly 3.6-4.6
- Aerate the heck out of it by shaking it or use a lees stirrer and drill a couple times a day until SG of 1.045 or so. (START SLOWLY - Mead fountains are really messy - Think Diet coke and Mentos)
- Give it a couple days and let us know how it is going.

Good Luck

For my starter I used tap water cause I read an article saying that mineral free water is hard on the yeast (https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/wineyeastrehydration09.pdf)
For the rest of the 5 gallons I use demineralized water.

I'll keep stirring a few times a day and keep the temp up a little.

 

[CKuhns]

Tap water from a municipality could definately be your problem. . Not usually the best source. Again the treatment chemicals could cause problems. Buy good quality spring water. It carries the micro nutrients beneficial for your yeast and will not have the chlorine, flouride etc. Yes you can overcome it but as your expierience dictates is not easily accomplished.


Edited - Sorry - Missed that last line about Demin water. Spring water statement still is applicable.

 

[madscientist451]

There was a post on here recently that said when they used distilled water, the fermentation didn't do much of anything but when they used spring water everything went fine. Is you "demineralized" water distilled?
14-15C is a fairly low temperature for mead, if you warm it up and stir it, you'll probably start seeing some results.

 

[A-man]

Temp range for D47 is 15-20C. I agree demineralized water could be a big part of the problem.

 

[lpsumo]

Just checked the pH. It's at 3.30
I'll order some potassium bicarbonate to bump that up a little. Any recommendations for approximate dosage?

Regarding the water, I haven't seen spring water around here anywhere. I can maybe blend some tap water with the demineralized water.

It's not distilled, I think it's RO, but there's no trace minerals left in it.

 

[bernardsmith]

Your yeast NEEDS the minerals and it most definitely does not want any chemicals added to the water to inhibit or kill bacteria and fungi (the latter also known as yeast). You should be able to buy spring water from your supermarket in liter bottles or in 5 gallon carboys. That said a pH of 3.3 should not itself be a problem for lab cultured yeast. A pH below 3.0 could be

 

[lpsumo]

I'll investigate the water further, thanks

I just hyper-aerated it with a drill & whisk, hope that knocks out some CO2 and feeds in some oxygen

At what point would I want to stop aeration? It's in a primary bucket

 

[Seamonkey84]

Potassium carbonate or bicarbonate can be used at 1/4 tsp per gallon, any more and you might taste it. You shouldn’t be adding oxygen once you’re batch is close to 10%abv, but gentle stirring or swirling to degas is good, and helps stir up the yeast so they aren’t going dormant from getting buried in the lees.

 

[Maylar]

Stop aerating after 36 hrs. By that time they are in the anaerobic state and out of growth phase.

 

[lpsumo]

You shouldn’t be adding oxygen once you’re batch is close to 10%abv

Not sure what you mean by this? Because my finished ABV will be 10% I shouldn't be oxygenating anymore? I'm currently only down to 1.060 which is maybe 2% ABV?

Stop aerating after 36 hrs. By that time they are in the anaerobic state and out of growth phase.

I'll keep this in mind for my next batch. Does this only apply if the yeast behaves well?

 

[Seamonkey84]

Sorry, not sure where I misread saying you close to 9% right now.

 

[lpsumo]

Approaching 1.050, I'm still stirring it daily. I guess I should stop stirring around 1.030?

I checked with the municipality and the tap water has no chlorine, it's disinfected through UV. I compared the water assay with the water I used to use before I moved here and if I use a 4:1 ratio of demineralized water to tap water it should work out the same.

Next batch will be 1 gallon cause 5 gallon experiments are stressful...

 

[lpsumo]

I racked this in to secondary. I figured with the SLOW fermentation I didn't want it sitting in an open bucket for too long.

It's in a carboy as of Jan 2. Bubbling like crazy (airlock goes every 8 seconds or so) but ten days later it's still at 1.040

No idea how this will end up, when it eventually ends...