Just did a reorder for the next run (we build 20 controllers per run) and our component costs went up on some items. Final tally not in yet, but I expect about a 5% increase on the controller.
Since my ebuild is moving at the pace of geologic time
About $1400USD for the 30A kit if you were to buy all the parts yourself. I paid over $2000USD myself but because of the stupid shipping costs to get things to Canada and that was before people were charging an arm and a leg for some of the parts (before they got popular).But you could say that about any prebuilt (or even kitset) "thing". How much stuff is in one of Kal's kits?
Don't forget support as well. That wasn't listed. ... and defective parts, replacements, marketing, sales, advertising, etc. The list is of costs is massive.Relative to profit, I'm working for less than half of minimum wage if I account for all my time. Time to purchase, receive, store, fabricate, assemble, fully test and package. Also there are consumables such as tooling, solder, potting compound, packing materials, etc.
Being the provider of the system, I feel compelled to respond, without making it a commercial for my product.
The system includes shipping, which is no small cost now days. There is inbound shipping on every component and outbound shipping of the complete system. Outbound shipping approaches $50 for some locations. I'd like to see the bill of materials and suppliers for the $400 cost estimate. I'd gladly purchase that option! Even buying in bulk I can't get near that. Looking forward to seeing that.
Relative to profit, I'm working for less than half of minimum wage if I account for all my time. Time to purchase, receive, store, fabricate, assemble, fully test and package. Also there are consumables such as tooling, solder, potting compound, packing materials, etc.
Much time was spent evaluating materials and designing. Not to mention the time spent developing and perfecting the firmware and software. The enclosure is laser cut specifically for this controller. Designing that took days to perfect.
Also, taxes! Profit is taxed, and we all know what a cut that takes out of the bottom line.
More power to those that want to build it themselves. Homebrewers are by design do-it-yourselfers. This system is being provided to allow some to eliminate all the time and mistakes made when building your own.
Hope this didn't cross a line into advertising, it is more of a justification response.
Cheers.
Here is the relevant section from the manual (which is excellent BTW, bravo!):
"Heater Power
This prompt has multiple functions depicted by a varying length RED BAR when the heater is
enabled or by the word OFF when it is disabled. In general, when the heater is enabled, the length
of the bar indicates the power level of the heater output. Temperature is maintained with this system by
using a PID algorithm, that basically adjusts the amount of time the heater is on or off. The controller
can only provide full power (ON) or no power (OFF) to the heater element. By turning the heater on
for 1 second at 100% power and off for 1 second, we attain a 50% analog power equivalent using
digital controls. Any % power can be attained in this manner, and that is how this controller is able to
control temperature so accurately. A red bar that is the full length of the status window as shown in the
picture above represents 100% power. Shorter red bars indicate reduced power levels."
So based on how the controller works, the answer to your question would be no, because the controller can only turn on and turn off the heat stick at 100% power, so it can't work like a potentiometer which could control a heat stick from anywhere between 0% to 100% power. I am curious to see how it works during the boil process. How does it know when there is a rolling boil and to back off when it starts to boil over? My guess is the boil step is based on you using a recirculation technique with the wort, which in theory, should avoid boil over because you are constantly moving the wort, thus you can run the heat stick at full power. I don't plan to do that currently, so I may have to enter into manual mode at that point during the process and toggle the heat on an off as needed. But that's just my process.
He meant this to be a complete system, so if you only use parts of it, you will have to figure out some stuff to make it work for you.
Edit:
Having re-read these lines, it might work for you though:
"By turning the heater on
for 1 second at 100% power and off for 1 second, we attain a 50% analog power equivalent using
digital controls. Any % power can be attained in this manner, and that is how this controller is able to
control temperature so accurately. A red bar that is the full length of the status window as shown in the
picture above represents 100% power. Shorter red bars indicate reduced power levels."
Still not the same as a potentiometer, but as long as the heat stick responds to quick changes in power, it could work in a manual mode. I'd be worried about long term wear on the controller/SSR (assuming it has one) with a rapid on/off cycle of 30 AMPS.
Everything described above is just Pulse Width Modulation, no?
I thought that's how you HAD to control a heating element. The only way to get 50% power is to cycle it on and off at a specific rate. You can't just dial the power back with a potentiometer. I was under the impression an element like that was all or nothing.
Hence the reason why so many people have built stand alone PWM controllers to slow the boil on their electric setups.
Look at the part of the manual that explains how he made his own algorithm....if the boil temp is programmed at 212, then wouldn't the controller automatically put the element on low power as it approaches 212? And since it will never actually reach 212, it should modulate the boil pretty well....right? I'd quote the part but I'm on my phone
In general, setting a PID algorithm to maintain 212F at sea level will oscillate between no boil and vigorous boil. People use PWMs or PIDs with manual mode to set a percentage to maintain the level of "vigor" as desired.
The only question I would have is there a way (or perhaps in your update) to put the controler in full manual mode for the boil. I saw there was an auto and manual as far as the process steps, and there is a way to adjust the boiling temp once reached... but. Is there a way to just add or remove power like a PID in manual mode. Curently I use a potentiometer system and as im about to build or purchase a better system, I would be very interested in this contoler If this feature was available. HECK YOU TELL ME ITS DOABLE AND I BUY TODAY.
Yes, in manual or auto mode you can adjust the set point temperature on the fly by simply pressing the up or down button on the controller at any time. Gives you analog type control but uses digital technique. The solid state relay switches power on the zero crossing point of the AC cycle so there is no issue with durability of the heater.
So just to clarify, can you manually set the element to a say 50% power setting or a timer setting (on one sec, off the next sec)?
Many have requested multiple hops addition alarms instead of the two that the default configuration allows. I just want to make sure that the program changes I make meet the expectations of those that asked for it.
Right now, there is an alarm that notifies the brewer to add hops at the point when boil is reached. I would retain that alarm. Is the assumption that everyone always adds some hops at the start of boil?
I would then add the option for 5 more times (in minutes) from the start of boil for subsequent hops additions.
Thus, you would set "Boil Time" to 1 hour for example, which would represent the entire boil time.
You could then specify up to 5 hops addition times for example:
H1 =10
H2 = 20
H3 = 40
H4 = 45
H5 = 50
So 10 minutes after the start of the boil, an alarm would tell you to add hops (H1)
then, 10 minutes after that, or 20 minutes after boil started, you would be reminded to add hops again (H2),
then , 10 minutes after that, or 30 minutes after boil started, you would be reminded to add hops again (H3),
then, 15 minutes after that, or 45 minutes after boil started, you would be reminded to add hops again (H4),
and finally, 5 minutes after that, or 50 minutes after boil started, you would be reminded to add hops again (H5).
Is 5 additions after the initial enough?
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Cheers!
Nope! There are many beers that are all late boil hopped as it gives a much smoother bitterness. I do this in my Electric Pale Ale. Boiled for 60 mins but hops aren't added until the last 20 on down. More details on late hopping here on Jamil's site.Right now, there is an alarm that notifies the brewer to add hops at the point when boil is reached. I would retain that alarm. Is the assumption that everyone always adds some hops at the start of boil?
Some of the beers I've made have 6-7 hops additions.Is 5 additions after the initial enough?
Nope! There are many beers that are all late boil hopped as it gives a much smoother bitterness. I do this in my Electric Pale Ale. Boiled for 60 mins but hops aren't added until the last 20 on down. More details on late hopping here on Jamil's site.
Then there are other beers that are boiled for 90 but hops are added from 60 on down.
Then there are beers I've made (like this one) where all the of bitterness comes from hop stands where 100% of the hops are added AFTER the boil is completely over. The hops are only steeped, sometimes for hours, at varying temperatures.
There are basically no rules: You can add hops in the mash, first wort hops (before the boil while collecting in the boil kettle), during the boil, after the boil is done, and various stages of fermentation, after fermentation, and while serving.
So it really depends. If you want to provide full flexibility you need to allow for hops at any time. IMHO, you can't limit the brewer, though there's no reason why he has to follow a schedule imposed by the box either.
Some of the beers I've made have 6-7 hops additions.
There are also continually hopped beers (a la Dogfish Head) where you add hops continually throughout the boil. These would basically have an infinite number of hop additions.
All of the above is one reason why I never tried to do any sort of programming or alarming based on additions ... there are too many options available!
Kal
Agree 100%. Something that allows you to choose from FWH, to any time during the boil to "+" times after the boil is really all that is needed. What I didn't like is the idea that everyone always adds hops at the beginning of the boil as that's not true at all. Simply allow users to configure a string of number or even letters (like FWH) to denote when their hops get added, up to 10 or so and they'd be set.While all of that is true, if you step back and look at this as not a system that will brew beer for you, rather it is assisted brewing - the controller helps you to brew but doesn't do it for you. For the hop additions it is just reminding you when to through your next lot of hops in.
All of what you talk about could easily be covered by having a set number of hop additions that are configurable (and you did mention that).
I would say 10 would be plenty - just make sure that you can change the boil length and the hop timing.
100% hop stand beer - the brewer knows to add the hops after the boil is complete.
DFH stytle cont. hopped beer - again the brewer knows to continously add a little bit of hops throughout the boil.
Agree 100%. Something that allows you to choose from FWH, to any time during the boil to "+" times after the boil is really all that is needed. What I didn't like is the idea that everyone always adds hops at the beginning of the boil as that's not true at all. Simply allow users to configure a string of number or even letters (like FWH) to denote when their hops get added, up to 10 or so and they'd be set.
Kal
While all of that is true, if you step back and look at this as not a system that will brew beer for you, rather it is assisted brewing - the controller helps you to brew but doesn't do it for you. For the hop additions it is just reminding you when to through your next lot of hops in.
All of what you talk about could easily be covered by having a set number of hop additions that are configurable (and you did mention that).
I would say 10 would be plenty - just make sure that you can change the boil length and the hop timing.
100% hop stand beer - the brewer knows to add the hops after the boil is complete.
DFH stytle cont. hopped beer - again the brewer knows to continously add a little bit of hops throughout the boil.
I agree. If it is set up to always add hops when you reach boil, who is to say that you didn't just add some "Air" hops at initial boil and go on about your plan for later additions.
The oh so delicious air hops. Perfect for bittering, flavoring and aroma! Although, I tend to mix them with several ounces of other varieties to really bring out their uniqueness
I pulled the trigger today on the 15gal kit. Pretty excited to get out started up
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