Cooling fermentor with keezer

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ninkwood

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As my first foray into home brew, I'm planning to build a keezer that I can use to pour some kegs from my local breweries. I think this is a good way to prove to myself (my wife) that I need copious amounts of beer on hand at all times...

As I design the keezer, I'm thinking about dedicating some space to a water tank that I can recirculate through my future fermentation cooling coil. I haven't been able to find any examples of people doing this, so I'm a bit concerned it won't work or isn't a good idea. Does anyone have any practical experience with this idea? Would refrigerated water not be cold enough for this idea to work? Or would the volume required take up too much keezer real estate?

Thanks!
 
DonT said:
Are planning to rely on the keezer space to cool the water tank? Because that won't work...
Click to expand...
yeah that's what I was thinking - store a tank of water (5 gallons? 10 gallons?) in the keezer in the dead space, set the temperature (probe a water bottle or something) so that the beers pour at the desired temperature just above freezing and pump the water from the tank inside the keezer through a chiller in the fermenter.

Bobby_M said:
This comes up all the time and it's seems intuitive that it will work. However, it underestimates how much heat a fermenter puts into the fluid and overestimates how effective cold air is at removing heat from that fluid.
Click to expand...

this is why I thought I should ask! It seems like it might work, but if it did, glycol chillers wouldn't be as popular. Does the ice water in a cooler method work? Or is the only way to temp control fermentation at lower temps by purchasing a separate freezer/fridge for the fermenter?

thanks for the input!
 
What I did was rather rudimentary but it has worked out ok. I have a small Igloo style cooler. I put a cheap pump I got off Amazon into it, add ice and water. Run a line from the pump out into my Immersion chiller. Once circulated, it runs back into the cooler using another line and the pump picks it back up to run it thru again. I typically use about 4 to 5 1 pound bags of ice per 5 gallon batch I think. I have a small liquor store close by that sells ice in 3 packs, but I never checked the weight. I hate having to buy frozen water, but I have no place to make or store large amounts of ice so it is what it is. The pump doubles as the pump I use for my homemade bucket and keg washer as well. So, it is a dual purpose deal that has worked out ok for me. I don't have pics right now, but can try and snap some on my next brew day if it helps. All in, I think the pump, Immersion chiller and hoses cost me less than 75 bucks. Rock On!!!!!!!
 
ninkwood said:
yeah that's what I was thinking - store a tank of water (5 gallons? 10 gallons?) in the keezer in the dead space, set the temperature (probe a water bottle or something) so that the beers pour at the desired temperature just above freezing and pump the water from the tank inside the keezer through a chiller in the fermenter.



this is why I thought I should ask! It seems like it might work, but if it did, glycol chillers wouldn't be as popular. Does the ice water in a cooler method work? Or is the only way to temp control fermentation at lower temps by purchasing a separate freezer/fridge for the fermenter?

thanks for the input!
Click to expand...
I have had about a dozen customers in the last two years buy a conical fermenter with the cooling coils and told me explicitely that they were going to use a cooler full of ice water. One after the other, they came back asking for quotes on glycol chillers. From that point, I'd always tell people that no one has ever stuck with the icewater deal for more than a couple batches but it's one of those things people just have to see for themselves before they feel compelled to drop $700+ on a glycol chiller.

This all comes down to the one point I made about how much heat a fermenter absorbs from the exothermic fermentation process as well as the ambient air (assuming you're in a hot room).

I think the one workaround to an expensive glycol unit is the hacked 5Kbtu window air conditioner trick. Assuming you can grab a $50 used deal due to the end of summer, you won't mind too much if you fail at the project.
 
I tried. and, I am using a fridge now.

If the environment is something like 70F year-round, It would work perfectly for ale fermentation. Otherwise, it won't work. Just like what Bobby said, which my experience agrees with.
 
@Bobby_M (or anyone that knows) What about one of those portable fridge/freezers you see overlanders use on their camping trips? They're probably not as efficient (or as cheap) as the window AC hack you mentioned. But if it can reach freezing temps, the space it's in doesn't have fluctuating temps, is a large enough unit, fermenters are smallish, etc., would those work?

I have one that's semi retired (fridge's power outlet is kinda wonky) as a dedicate garage fridge. At one time I wondered about seeing if it can be used as a makeshift DIY glycol chiller for my Spike fermenters. It's a 45L fridge/freezer and can hold a single 2.5G topedo keg or a 3 gallon kettle. The garage stays right at 70F on the hotter part of the year (basement, mid 60s years around), so the biggest issue I had was if it was big enough to be usable as a chiller.

The smaller footprint of a portable fridge/freezer had me wondering if it's a viable option for small space brewers. I don't use my conical as much as I used to, especially since I've been using my kegs as fermenters, but thought I'd ask anyways in case someone else was wondering this.
 
I just took a mini fridge that my brother had at my mom's that she did not want anymore. I am going to use it as a fermenting chamber to keep my wort at certain temps, depending on yeast ranges. It will be my first foray into the Lager or Pils world as I now have something that can get to lower temps and hold steady. Not sure it would be very effective in cooling hot wort if that is what you are asking. The hot wort will take the internal temp of the fridge pretty high and the fridge probably won't be able to keep up. I am not expert on this, so I will let the pro's respond, but if I am reading right, the mini fridge freezer idea probably isn't going to work for what you need. But, once you pitch your yeast, it is an awesome temp control for better beer as I have read on many websites.
 
Bobby_M said:
I'd always tell people that no one has ever stuck with the icewater deal for more than a couple batches but it's one of those things people just have to see for themselves before they feel compelled to drop $700+ on a glycol chiller.
Click to expand...
I guess I buck that trend. I've got a decent dedicated brewing space in the basement, but haven't been interested in dedicating the space, the electrical outlet, or the money to glycol. I keep thinking that will change eventually, but I've been chilling my fermentors with ice water cooler for close to 10 years.

I have a 10 gallon Igloo round cooler and I cut a hole in the top for the cooling tubes and pump electrical plug to come out of. I fill the cooler with about 4-5 gallons of cold tap water, and I have a bunch of empty 2L pop bottles that have been filled with water. I keep 5 in the freezer, and 5 frozen ones in the cooler with the water. My basement is usually around 65-70F year-round. Depending on fermentation temperature, I'm either swapping out the 5 bottles of ice every 12 hours or every 24 hours. It's just long enough for the bottles to freeze up again in the freezer.

I'll ferment lagers in the 50-55F range, and usually need it at the start of my ale fermentations to get down to around 65-68F. I ferment in stainless conicals with various versions of stainless chilling coils and neoprene jackets, or FermZilla All-Rounders with a Cool Zone stretchy cooling jacket and wrapped in a blanket.

It's been good for maintaining temps, but it gets old changing out the frozen bottles. And of course, you have to be home so you don't miss an ice changeover. For those reasons, for sure a glycol chiller seems easier. But I haven't done it yet.
 
OP: for clairification, you're planning on using this for temperature control during fermentation, right? Not as cooling from the boil down to pitching temps?
I would think something like that would work pretty well - on paper at least - for the former; you're only looking to move things a few degrees at max, or more so keep the temps pretty stable, compared to dropping things 125 degrees or so fairly quickly.
The hard part with this kind of setup is getting those temps where you want them and keeping them there. without some sort of on/off it'll run constantly, temps fluctuating all over the place.
 
Yes. It’s possible, but under some specific conditions and requires specific equipment, and limited by whatever the main use is, in this case draft beer. I can give you the details if you want, but honestly it’s not worth the trouble.
splurge on a glycol unit if you’re ballin, rig a diy AC-glycol setup if not, or get a side by side fridge if you’re smart. The fridge side holds up to 10g conical usually and freezer side holds all your hops, dry yeast, saved/frozen yeast, starter wort, etc. free on Craigslist or Facebook if you’re patient, maybe 100 or 200 if you in a hurry.
 
jrgtr42 said:
OP: for clairification, you're planning on using this for temperature control during fermentation, right? Not as cooling from the boil down to pitching temps?
I would think something like that would work pretty well - on paper at least - for the former; you're only looking to move things a few degrees at max, or more so keep the temps pretty stable, compared to dropping things 125 degrees or so fairly quickly.
The hard part with this kind of setup is getting those temps where you want them and keeping them there. without some sort of on/off it'll run constantly, temps fluctuating all over the place.
Click to expand...
Correct - just for maintaining temps during fermentation AFTER cooldown. The on/off issue is solved with a temperature controller hooked up to the pump. The pump turns on when the wort is too warm, and it turns off when it hits temp. With all that said, I'd like to be able to ferment at as low as 50F, so this isn't sounding like the most promising idea based on everyone's input.

I did come across this video tonight from The Apartment Brewer where he claims to have had success with this method, however he was also using an ice block in his water bucket much like @micraftbeer mentioned doing. My goal here is to have the Keezer work double duty to cut down on footprint by cooling my beer and my fermenting wort without having to fit the actual fermenter inside. I would be cool changing ice if I had to I suppose (I say that now...)

Ultimately it sounds like a second fridge/freezer with temp controller will be similarly priced, more convenient/reliable and take up more floor space.

oh and @OleBrewing - 5 gallon batches

@SanPancho I think you're onto it - I just need to accept that i'll need two fridge/freezers.
 
redrocker652002 said:
The hot wort will take the internal temp of the fridge pretty high and the fridge probably won't be able to keep up.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't recommend putting hot wort into the fridge. It will probably kill the compressor because it will run nonstop for over 24 hours trying to cool it down and your hopping profile is going to be all over the map. I highly recommend dropping it to under 90F first with a small copper immersion chiller fed with tap water.

A mini fridge is really designed to keep cold things cold or cool off a small amount of slightly warm things.
 
micraftbeer said:
I guess I buck that trend.

It's been good for maintaining temps, but it gets old changing out the frozen bottles.
Click to expand...
To date, you've been willing to endure the trouble of staying relatively actively engaged in the process of keeping things cool but you're growing tired of it. All the people I mentioned are the ones that came to that realization and then told me about it. I'm sure there are few people that endure and haven't told me about it.
 
jrgtr42 said:
OP: for clairification, you're planning on using this for temperature control during fermentation, right?
I would think something like that would work pretty well
Click to expand...
That's the problem. It's intuitive that a box designed to make things cold will make things cold but that's where it ends. The devil is in the details which is why engineering is a career.
 
ninkwood said:
Ultimately it sounds like a second fridge/freezer with temp controller will be similarly priced, more convenient/reliable and take up more floor space.
Click to expand...
It's a good idea to accept that workarounds that are just good enough to reach low ale temps during fermentation (such as 60F for a Kolsch) will only satisfy for a short time. You go through all the trouble of acquiring fermenters that can be cooled with "glycol" and then you want to cold crash or ferment lagers in the 48F area and you'll be frustrated.

This mini fridge is at an all time low price right now and will fit a 6.5 gallon bucket, 7G fermonster (my fav), and all similarly sized fermenters once you break the door shelving off and remove the internal thermostat. This unit does not have a freezer section to worry about.

https://www.target.com/p/midea-4-4-cu-ft-compact-refrigerator--no-aasa/-/A-88863490
 
Bobby_M said:
I wouldn't recommend putting hot wort into the fridge. It will probably kill the compressor because it will run nonstop for over 24 hours trying to cool it down and your hopping profile is going to be all over the map. I highly recommend dropping it to under 90F first with a small copper immersion chiller fed with tap water.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I've been known to stick wort into the refrigerator to chill, but only for the last 20 degrees or so.
 
Bobby_M said:
It's a good idea to accept that workarounds that are just good enough to reach low ale temps during fermentation (such as 60F for a Kolsch) will only satisfy for a short time. You go through all the trouble of acquiring fermenters that can be cooled with "glycol" and then you want to cold crash or ferment lagers in the 48F area and you'll be frustrated.

This mini fridge is at an all time low price right now and will fit a 6.5 gallon bucket, 7G fermonster (my fav), and all similarly sized fermenters once you break the door shelving off and remove the internal thermostat. This unit does not have a freezer section to worry about.

https://www.target.com/p/midea-4-4-cu-ft-compact-refrigerator--no-aasa/-/A-88863490
Click to expand...


Will a Fermzilla All Rounder and/or 5 gallon ball lock keg fit in that fridge?
 
Bobby_M said:
It's a good idea to accept that workarounds that are just good enough to reach low ale temps during fermentation (such as 60F for a Kolsch) will only satisfy for a short time. You go through all the trouble of acquiring fermenters that can be cooled with "glycol" and then you want to cold crash or ferment lagers in the 48F area and you'll be frustrated.

This mini fridge is at an all time low price right now and will fit a 6.5 gallon bucket, 7G fermonster (my fav), and all similarly sized fermenters once you break the door shelving off and remove the internal thermostat. This unit does not have a freezer section to worry about.

https://www.target.com/p/midea-4-4-cu-ft-compact-refrigerator--no-aasa/-/A-88863490
Click to expand...
To be clear, you're saying fridge > hacks, not fridge > chiller, right?
 
mac_1103 said:
Two 5 gallon ball lock kegs will fit. Don't think it can accommodate the diameter of an all-rounder.
Click to expand...
As far as the two kegs, does it need a shelf to offset the diameters and account for the hump?

There are a few kegerators that are also sold as fridges without the tower and such but I doubt they price out as low as that one. I got a used Sanyo like that for $50! I did have to take the door shelving off but only because I was using a 10 gallon ball lock for a fermenter. Two five gallon pin locks did fit without modification however.
 
mac_1103 said:
Kegs go in front of the hump. Too tall to go on top. And like Bobby said, you have to cut the plastic off the door.
Click to expand...
Ok. I can fit two in my wine chiller fermenter which seems similar in size but I think one has to be a pin lock and one on a shelf as the width isn't enough diameter to diameter side by side. So that's a good model to note!

On my kegerator, I just happened to notice that there were screws that held on the molded door. They were under the door seals. I don't think it is common for that but worth a check before cutting the door on any model. It was probably because it was a convertible model. (I have no doubt Bobby checked that here.)
 
I've got a chest freezer with an inkbird controller. I can fit a Fermzilla all rounder on the floor and tape the probe to the fermenter. This works fine for me. Always been able to keep the fermenter at 62-66F. This is the only thing in the chest freezer. I use this sometimes. I've found that pressure fermenting reduced my need for temperature control 99% of the time. Actually use the chest freezer for farmhouse/belgian ales where I want the esthers from it being a bit warmer.
 
mac_1103 said:
Kegs go in front of the hump. Too tall to go on top. And like Bobby said, you have to cut the plastic off the door.
Click to expand...

So you have to still cut the plastic on the door for the kegs? Bummer. I didn't get any hopes up for the All Rounder, but was hoping at least a ball lock or two would fit with no issues.
 
Bobby_M said:
I wouldn't recommend putting hot wort into the fridge. It will probably kill the compressor because it will run nonstop for over 24 hours trying to cool it down and your hopping profile is going to be all over the map. I highly recommend dropping it to under 90F first with a small copper immersion chiller fed with tap water.

A mini fridge is really designed to keep cold things cold or cool off a small amount of slightly warm things.
Click to expand...
Exactly! That is what I was trying to say.
 
ninkwood said:
As my first foray into home brew, I'm planning to build a keezer that I can use to pour some kegs from my local breweries. I think this is a good way to prove to myself (my wife) that I need copious amounts of beer on hand at all times...

As I design the keezer, I'm thinking about dedicating some space to a water tank that I can recirculate through my future fermentation cooling coil. I haven't been able to find any examples of people doing this, so I'm a bit concerned it won't work or isn't a good idea. Does anyone have any practical experience with this idea? Would refrigerated water not be cold enough for this idea to work? Or would the volume required take up too much keezer real estate?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
just an FYI- walmart has a 7cu ft frigidaire chest freezer for $159 with free delivery. mine should arrive tomorrow, old keezer goes on craigslist after i make sure it runs fine for a few days.

not really a help with your fermentation, but cheap solution for a keezer
 
SanPancho said:
just an FYI- walmart has a 7cu ft frigidaire chest freezer for $159 with free delivery. mine should arrive tomorrow, old keezer goes on craigslist after i make sure it runs fine for a few days.

not really a help with your fermentation, but cheap solution for a keezer
Click to expand...
How much would you want for the old one? I am in San Francisco, if you are close maybe we can work something out. I could use a storage box or even a multi tap setup. LOL Pending Accountant (wife) approval of course. LOL
 
redrocker652002 said:
How much would you want for the old one? I am in San Francisco, if you are close maybe we can work something out. I could use a storage box or even a multi tap setup. LOL Pending Accountant (wife) approval of course. LOL
Click to expand...
The old one is a 5 cu ft model, so smaller than the new one. Fits an all-rounder fermenter, 6.5 carboy, etc., but only 2 kegs at time on floor and a smaller 2.5 to 3gal keg on the hump. But you can also avoid going with small kegs and get some of those oxebar plastic kegs for fairly cheap these days to round out how many beers you have at one time.

here's a thread with all the keezer info you'll ever want- Chest Freezer Specs and Layouts

if it works for you shoot me a PM and we can work something out. no rush.
 
A lot of us have tried all kinds of hacks over the years. Skip all of the hassle and just get some kind of fridge and put the fermenter inside. I found a wine fridge used with a digital temperature setting from 39F to 65F for $200 many years ago. I recently added an Inkbird and ran EVA Barrier tubing out for gas purging of kegs. It really solves all of the issues without any problems.
 

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