American Sour Beer Book!
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Oldsock,
I ordered the book from Amazon a few weeks back, and I'm having a blast reading it!
I'm going to attempt my first sour after I've finished it - working on figuring out what dregs I'd like to pitch as well...
Thanks for all of your hard work and dedication towards these crazy and delicious beers!
Cheers!
I ordered the book from Amazon a few weeks back, and I'm having a blast reading it!
I'm going to attempt my first sour after I've finished it - working on figuring out what dregs I'd like to pitch as well...
Thanks for all of your hard work and dedication towards these crazy and delicious beers!
Cheers!
Glad to hear!
I've been floored by the response. So far its got 26 reviews on Amazon, 25 are 5-Star. The only one lower is 4-stars, starts Great book, and doesnt contain any complaints. Almost enough to convince me to write another one, maybe in 10 years or so.
I'll be posting my Amazon review in the weeks to come. Definitely a 5-star!
I can't imagine how much research and work goes into the process of authoring a book like yours - but I'm sure much of the work was great fun! I know that your book will prove invaluable once I set out on my quest for the perfect sour ale!
My review will start with "Meh, it's aight... " but it will have 5 stars. 
Finally finished wild brews so ordered this the next day. Just got it and read the first two chapters last night. Awesome read so far!!
mbbransc
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Got mine on SAT. Chpt 5 already.
Cheers! If you made it through Chapter 4, the rest is less technical and more fun to read (well write anyway).
mbbransc
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The hardest part for me has been waiting to finish the book before brewing my first sour. It was all I could do yesterday to walk out of the LHBS without some pilsner and roselare!
Why wait? Get a batch going now, and another one once you finish reading the book!
It's a sickness for sure. I think a good 80% of the beer I've brewed in the past year has been sour beer. The ironic part is that I'm still planning the next and the next and so on, yet the first sour beer I brewed isn't ready to drink yet (but it has been bottled!).
This brings me to a question. I had read in your book, though has been some time, that it is similar to standard carbonation, but since many reach a very low FG to be sure they are done before bottling. It seems that it takes longer for them to carbonate in sampling two different bottles from two different batches. Also one had dramatic flavor changes after just four weeks. It was a little younger when bottled, but had cleared and reached final gravity. The other batch I bottled on the same date was from an older and much stronger beer, which had also reached final gravity. This stronger beer was near still when I opened the first bottle at 4 weeks. I'm thinking to just let them sit until Christmas which would be about the three month mark.
Also thinking that might be worth consideration to get a dedicated carbonation keg and force carbonate to the desired level, then bottle with a beer gun or counter pressure bottler. This would be in line with how I manage my clean beers, but would seem out of character for the sour beers, at least in how they are traditionally carbonated and bottled. What might be the negative aspects of force carbonating a wild or sour ale then bottling (without additional sugar of course)?
Thanks
TD
This brings me to a question. I had read in your book, though has been some time, that it is similar to standard carbonation, but since many reach a very low FG to be sure they are done before bottling. It seems that it takes longer for them to carbonate in sampling two different bottles from two different batches. Also one had dramatic flavor changes after just four weeks. It was a little younger when bottled, but had cleared and reached final gravity. The other batch I bottled on the same date was from an older and much stronger beer, which had also reached final gravity. This stronger beer was near still when I opened the first bottle at 4 weeks. I'm thinking to just let them sit until Christmas which would be about the three month mark.
Also thinking that might be worth consideration to get a dedicated carbonation keg and force carbonate to the desired level, then bottle with a beer gun or counter pressure bottler. This would be in line with how I manage my clean beers, but would seem out of character for the sour beers, at least in how they are traditionally carbonated and bottled. What might be the negative aspects of force carbonating a wild or sour ale then bottling (without additional sugar of course)?
Thanks
TD
No major drawbacks I can think of. I mention in the book the Remi Bonnart - NHC Brewer of the Year winner for a Flemish Red takes that approach for his sours. Trillium Brewing is doing that for their sours as well. As long as the Brett is alive it will continue scavenging oxygen and develop interesting flavors.
I'm just lazy, and in no particular rush with my sour beers. Bottle conditioning is so much less labor intensive.
mbbransc
Well-Known Member
I guess my consternation is because I'm not sure what I want my pipeline to look like yet!!
My current thought is maybe brew a 'golden' straight lambic each quarter that I can drink or experiment with fruit additions or blending. And then every other quarter brew a red or bruin because I really enjoy those too!!!
This is probably covered in the book and most assuredly on your blog, but if I brew a roeselare pilsner/2row/wheat beer now, how long before I can rack it to secondary and repitch part of the cake in a red or bruin (assuming no more sacch getting pitched with 2nd beer)?
Or should I just use sacch in primary and pitch roeselare in secondary? I seem to recall you pitch all of it at once. Logistics of what my pipeline will 'look like' is what I'm still trying to figure out in my head!!
And if I keep a jar of the roeselare yeast cake for another batch the following month, I assume I should leave it at room temp to preserve the bugs and then throw in some sacch yeast when I pitch?
thx
I rack most of my sours after 2-3 weeks, when the Saccharomyces settles down. Using a reasonably fresh yeast cake like that there is no reason to pitch more brewer's yeast. Not a bad idea to augment with additional brewer's yeast if you are using an older yeast cake.
Pitching everything together in primary works for my tastes, especially when it comes to commercial blends without additional dregs.
Why use the same blend for everything? Are you sure Roeselare is the perfect blend for your tastes? I think it's nice to have a bit of variety when you are producing that much sour beer. Some batches that are a bit more acidic, or funky, or dry etc. for blending and to pair better with fruits or other addition.
Pilgarlic
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For anyone "chomping at the bit" to produce a sour beer I offer this: In the book, Michael alludes to his opinion that the quickest way to a reasonably complex sour beer is to sour the wort then 100% brett ferment. Boom. Since having read that I have brewed three ten gallon batches this way and served each of them within 30 days of brew day. Each of these beers has been complex, sour, fruity and delightful, and two of the three have been VERY well received at two local fests.
The brett starter for the primary ferment starts ten days to two weeks before pitching. Each time I've stepped up to something like 30-50 ml of well-caked slurry. Three days out I made a lacto starter from 1.5 L of 1.030 wort to which I added a couple of handfuls of crushed malt. Brewed up a simple 1.050 wort, chilled it and pitched the lacto starter into 110-115 degree wort in the boil kettle. Put the lid on and let it go overnight and BY THE NEXT MORNING was at a clean, lacto-tart pH of 3.8. Boiled with a tiny (less than 5 IBU) bittering addition. Oxygenated and pitched the brett and let it run from 64 up to 74. Dry hopped at 2 oz per 5 gallons. Kegged when clear (or nearly) and served.
Don't ask for strains, malt bill or hop schedule, this is a process not a recipe. But the beer will be nicely tart and very fruity (the souring provides a substrate from which the brett can produce its fruity esters).
Start today and you can have a complex sour beer with brett fruitiness within six weeks. Don't expect it to last long.
The brett starter for the primary ferment starts ten days to two weeks before pitching. Each time I've stepped up to something like 30-50 ml of well-caked slurry. Three days out I made a lacto starter from 1.5 L of 1.030 wort to which I added a couple of handfuls of crushed malt. Brewed up a simple 1.050 wort, chilled it and pitched the lacto starter into 110-115 degree wort in the boil kettle. Put the lid on and let it go overnight and BY THE NEXT MORNING was at a clean, lacto-tart pH of 3.8. Boiled with a tiny (less than 5 IBU) bittering addition. Oxygenated and pitched the brett and let it run from 64 up to 74. Dry hopped at 2 oz per 5 gallons. Kegged when clear (or nearly) and served.
Don't ask for strains, malt bill or hop schedule, this is a process not a recipe. But the beer will be nicely tart and very fruity (the souring provides a substrate from which the brett can produce its fruity esters).
Start today and you can have a complex sour beer with brett fruitiness within six weeks. Don't expect it to last long.
Very cool! It's difficult for me to devote two consecutive days to brewing as a father of two school age children and working full time, and all else life has to offer. This may be a reason to try and carve out some time though. Also the time I spent on both days combined might work out to be the same since I'm stopping halfway through. Please detail how you do this. Once I had to quit mid brew day before boiling due to a severe thunderstorm, as I'm a propane outdoor brewer. Also, did you pastuerize or pre boil the collected wort before chilling to 110-115?
TD
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Pilgarlic
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I did in each case "pasteurize" before chilling to 110-115 for the lacto. In one case I brought it up to 185 or so and in at least one another I briefly boiled.
One of the great advantages of this method is that the aerophilic enterobacter and others that tend to putrify wort or sour mashes never get a chance. They're extremely sensitive to pH and between the addition of the acidic lacto starter and the immediate increase in lactobacillus and lactic acid from the large, active starter the pathetic little creatures never have a chance.
mbbransc
Well-Known Member
I have no idea about Roeselare but it seems many are impressed with its overall blend. From what I've read too, subsequent pitches will be different as the percentage composite of the blend has shifted. So there will still be variety, right? And if I brew a golden lambic first (month 1), then an oud bruin (month 2), then flanders red (month 3), I'll still have quite a bit of variety. Then the following quarter maybe I could try something different.
I do plan on filling a growler with some wort and an airlock to dump dregs into. I'll probably start that on my next brew day.
I'm with TrickyDick on the commitments. Wife and two young boys at home, along with a full-time job monopolize the majority of my time (and I wouldn't have it any other way). So I do tend to be strategic about my brewing pipeline. Also have to brew up some IPAs, stouts, scottishs ales, etc to have something on hand to drink!!
Pilgarlic - awesome process. going to have to give this one a go some day.
one question:
one question:
why bother with the crushed malt? it contains lacto along with a bunch of other bugs, likely entero. you've got a pure culture of brevis in your starter, why mess with it?
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Since we are talking about racking and yeast cakes, I thought I would ask a question that came up today. You mentioned in the book that Brett can create unique flavors off of sacch autolysis when given time. Today I racked my "lambic", that had been in primary for 6 months, onto sour cherries. I stuck the auto siphon in the yeast cake and sucked up a good chuck of yeast on purpose for the reason above. Will this have the same effect of brett creating phenols from the sacch autolysis?
Pilgarlic
Well-Known Member
I was unclear. The crushed malt was the SOLE source of microbes for the starter. I added the malt to the 1.030 wort to make the starter (just as MT described in the book).
For the record, I did nothing here that didn't come directly from the book, except, perhaps, limiting the time for the lacto to sour the kettle wort to less than 24 hours. It just didn't need any more time than that.
BGBC
Well-Known Member
Er, so how do you know you're getting brevis? I think that's the confusion. You're getting whatever is on the malt. Lacto + ??
Pilgarlic
Well-Known Member
I may not be. My understanding has been that the grain typically hosts brevis. Frankly, it doesn't matter much to me. I'm getting lactobacillus, which is dominating the culture, and creating lactic acidity. Predictably, repeatably. Should I care otherwise?
Autolysis releases sugars and fatty acids, not phenols. Youll get capr- variants, while will be turned into fruity esters by the Brett eventually. Sucking some yeast up will lend a little of this character, but not nearly as much as sitting on the entire yeast cake. However, at 6 months some of that Sacch may still be alive, and with the addition of simple sugars from the cherries be able to recharge their reserves.
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Thank you for clarifying. This is all still very new to me and I was trying to work from memory. What is a good time frame to assume all sacch has died and autolysis is occurring?
Autolysis is certainly starting by 6 months. Yeast cells die at a rate of approximately 25% a month even under ideal conditions (commercial yeast culture in the fridge), so it'd likely be even quicker for a sour beer. However, I'd guess they'd be some Sacch still alive until maybe a year or so?
Souring the *mash is something I've been curious about trying myself - a bit faster turnaround would be nice, especially for my first sour.
I've got a plan so far, which will also be an interesting experiment as well.
Tomorrow I'm brewing a batch of Belgian Strong Golden Ale, based off of Vinnie Cilurzo's Strong Golden Ale recipe from Brew Like a Monk. I'll be using WLP500 for that brew just to make a Belgian Golden.
I'm going to brew the same exact recipe again in 2-3 weeks and plan to ferment it with a culture I've been stepping up from a bottle of Crooked Stave's Autumn St. Bretta. I'm not certain if there's any Lacto or Pedio in the culture, as I've heard both from CS's employees: "all brett" and "it's got all the bugs from the barrels as well".... (talk about confusing - which is it?!)
Would it be best to also pitch a brett strain from White Labs to accommodate the starter I've cultured? Is that necessary in anyone's opinion?
Not sure if I'll sour the mash at all - I may just pitch the starter and see what happens. Also a little oak addition sounds interesting - maybe just 1 ounce.
If I did want to sour the mash overnight to speed up the process of souring, would I want to sour the whole thing? I love the sourest beers, so I'm not so worried about that, just don't want it to get too gamey with any other bugs!
I've got a plan so far, which will also be an interesting experiment as well.
Tomorrow I'm brewing a batch of Belgian Strong Golden Ale, based off of Vinnie Cilurzo's Strong Golden Ale recipe from Brew Like a Monk. I'll be using WLP500 for that brew just to make a Belgian Golden.
I'm going to brew the same exact recipe again in 2-3 weeks and plan to ferment it with a culture I've been stepping up from a bottle of Crooked Stave's Autumn St. Bretta. I'm not certain if there's any Lacto or Pedio in the culture, as I've heard both from CS's employees: "all brett" and "it's got all the bugs from the barrels as well".... (talk about confusing - which is it?!)
Would it be best to also pitch a brett strain from White Labs to accommodate the starter I've cultured? Is that necessary in anyone's opinion?
Not sure if I'll sour the mash at all - I may just pitch the starter and see what happens. Also a little oak addition sounds interesting - maybe just 1 ounce.
If I did want to sour the mash overnight to speed up the process of souring, would I want to sour the whole thing? I love the sourest beers, so I'm not so worried about that, just don't want it to get too gamey with any other bugs!
lpdjshaw
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Cool, thanks for the great idea. Will be giving this method a try
Autolysis also results in the release of nitrogenous compounds (mannoproteins and amino acids) which could be used by Brett as nutrients.
For what it's worth I've pulled viable Saccharomyces out of bottled beer more than one year old, but never more than two. That said, survival/autolytic capacity seems to be strain-dependent.
I'm wondering if it would be possible to turn conventional brewing wisdom on it's head by using an autolytic yeast in primary, combined with the addition of Brett to produce those esters faster and in abundance...
If you were to do this, would you suggest Brett Brux or Brett C for ferment? Any good suggestions for hops? I was thinking Simcoe would be good possibly? Any thoughts on Hull Melon for this?
I think you'd be much better served to sour the wort with a culture (from a lab or otherwise) rather than the mash. Much easier to control, and less risk of gamey-footy off-flavors.
I'm a big advocate for always pitching a healthy culture of brewer's yeast along with bottle dregs. Nice to have something you know will start fermenting quickly, and protect the wort. I've done 100% bottle dreg starters, it works, but it can take a long time (a lambic with a 3 Fonteinen starter took two years to come around).
Trinity does a similar process for Red Swingline, their Brett blend is Brux, Trois, and an isolate from New Belgium (if I'm correctly interpreting the cryptic "bouckaertii").
I think anything fruity works well with Brett. Simcoe has a range, some is very tropical, some more dank piney. The former would be terrific. Citra, Amarillo, Galaxy, Nelson Sauvin, Motueka, and I'm sure Hull Melon!
Pilgarlic
Well-Known Member
Brett Lambicus has been the popular favorite among my trials. I've also used trois with nice results. Okay, you asked. In my first trial I dry hopped with Mosaic and El Dorado, one ounce each per five gallons. Delicious. I'd highly recommend the combination of Brett Lambicus for the primary fermentation and Mosaic and El Dorado dry hops.
I assume Wyeast Brett lambicus? The fruitiness seems like it would play better with those hops than the big funkiness of White Lab's strain (although maybe it is mellower in primary).
Pilgarlic
Well-Known Member
White Labs. Stepped up to 75ml then to about 300ml. All fruit, playing very well with the fruity hops.
I'll try Wyeast next time and compare.
I took your advice and pitched some of the wlp500 trappist ale yeast along with about 1/4 bottle of Sactification with dregs into the 1.076 wort. Fermenting along now nicely at around 68 F - it's in the single digits in Denver right now so temperature regulation is quite easy.
This is only 1 gallon, but I suppose it qualifies as my first sour! I'm excited to see what it tastes like in about 4 weeks! Planning on just checking it every 6-8 weeks after then.
Not sure what I'm going to do with the St. Bretta dregs I've been stepping up yet...
Thanks for your help!
Hjandersen
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I'm somewhat ambivalent about this book, based on the US-centric title.
On one hand I'm intrigued and want to read it..
On the other hand - writing a book exclusively about american sours is ethnocentric to the point of being ridiculous..
- I really liked the composition of Mitch Steele's book on IPAs..
Lack of the appropriate historical context would be a bummer..
On one hand I'm intrigued and want to read it..
On the other hand - writing a book exclusively about american sours is ethnocentric to the point of being ridiculous..
- I really liked the composition of Mitch Steele's book on IPAs..
Lack of the appropriate historical context would be a bummer..
My book certainly dabbles in the Belgian, German, and English sour/funky beer traditions, but those werent the primary focus because Jeff Sparrow, Stan Hieronymus, and Ron Pattinson respectively beat me to the punch! It starts out with an overview of those country's traditions, and includes suggestions for beers to sample that illustrate them. As a way to give context to the beers and methods developed by US breweries over the last 20 years.
Writing a book that focuses on one country or culture really doesnt fit the definition of ethnocentric. I mean a book about French wines or feudal Japan isnt going to mention America very much. Ethnocentric refers to making judgments about another culture based on the values of your own (beer e.g., German beers arent well made because they arent heavily hopped). If you read American Sour Beers, nowhere in it do I suggest that American sour beers are better than those from any country.
mbbransc
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^ Why not read Wild Ales or BLAM. Don't they cover more historical context?
Hjandersen
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This sounds promising! It'll probably end up on my christmas wish list..
Of course not - both of these are generally bigger areas.. A book on Japanese feudalism has noting to do with the US. On the other hand such a book would draw parallels and look at differences to the development in medieval Europe - moreover would it look at the tremendous cultural influence from China etc. Same goes for a french wine book..
The point being - It's a style of EU origin.. Credit where its due..
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