RIMS for Dummies

The Pol said:

I will be monitoring my MLT OUTlet temp, RIMS OUTlet temp (latched to the Low Alarm on my PID as well), and my BK temp at the BK pump INlet.

I will use PIDs for all three... why? Because a PID is needed on the RIMS, a )PID is useful on the BK and a PID is CHEAP to monitor the temp with a thermocouple on the MLT OUTlet ($35)

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What prompted you to do a RIMS this time?

Sawdustguy said:

What prompted you to do a RIMS this time?

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Something different. Plus I can heat my strike water with it fast.

Additionally, there are certain limitations to my design that would not really allow for anything else.

The Pol said:

I am using Auber, which I know people hate, but I have had no issues with thier PIDs, SSRs or the like.

I am sure my build will burn up on the first try, but it is worth a shot.

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Really? I didn't know that there was such a consensus with them. I have bought loads of stuff through them and have been very happy with them.

FYI, just a bit of nomenclature correction. The low level alarm contact is not a latch, it would be considered a lockout. Confused me when I read it

I said the same thing the first time I fired mine up too, still going strong.

I have read plenty of dissenting opinions on Auber being cheaply constructed, poorly made. They are $35-$45, but I have always had good luck with them.

Will the Low Alarm then just override the PID functionality until the temp. drops below the Alarm set point? Or will this require user intervention to begin autotuning again?

Yooper got all my manuals when I sold her the HERMS

Pol-I can't help but wonder why you're not going with a BCS-460...Once you get past 2-3 PID's you might as well go with an embedded controller...not to mention the internet functionality it offers!

ScubaSteve said:

Pol-I can't help but wonder why you're not going with a BCS-460...Once you get past 2-3 PID's you might as well go with an embedded controller...not to mention the internet functionality it offers!

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How much is the BCS?

3 PIDs is $125

I could lose my job any day with terrorists being allowed to fly US airlines

The Pol said:

How much is the BCS?

3 PIDs is $125

I could lose my job any day with terrorists being allowed to fly US airlines

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More than the three PID's. It is about $187. The BCS460 is a good solution if you want to do automation like opening and closing valves but used simply for the PID functions, I feel is not cost justifiable.

Sawdustguy said:

More than the three PID's. It is about $187. The BCS460 is a good solution if you want to do automation like opening and closing valves but used simply for the PID functions, I feel is not cost justifiable.

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Good to know. One PID isnt going to DO anything, but it was a cost effective solition for thermocouple temp. readout of the MLT outlet. $35 is pretty cheap for an accurate panel mount thermometer.

The Pol said:

Good to know. One PID isnt going to DO anything, but it was a cost effective solition for thermocouple temp. readout of the MLT outlet. $35 is pretty cheap for an accurate panel mount thermometer.

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Sure, but you're creating the "Creme de la Creme" of rigs, right? The BCS can be used for quite a bit of stuff, including fermentation. You could go with the brewtroller, which would offer you similar functionality for around $85. It is capable of PID functionality IIRC.

ScubaSteve said:

Sure, but you're creating the "Creme de la Creme" of rigs, right? The BCS can be used for quite a bit of stuff, including fermentation. You could go with the brewtroller, which would offer you similar functionality for around $85. It is capable of PID functionality IIRC.

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I am producing MY dream rig... individual opinions may vary. (which is the main reason for not doing a real "build thread" this time)

I dunno that BCS or Brewtroller would give me anything extra, and honestly I have no knowlege of how either interface with a laptop and the SSRs.

The Pol said:

I am producing MY dream rig... individual opinions may vary. (which is the main reason for not doing a real "build thread" this time)

I dunno that BCS or Brewtroller would give me anything extra, and honestly I have no knowlege of how either interface with a laptop and the SSRs.

Click to expand...

The BCS actually has a pretty sweet interface...looks like a polished industrial control panel. I have no idea what the brewtroller GUI looks like, but you should be able to input setpoints and execute commands with a mouse.

As it pertains to THIS thread, I think if you're going to control a BK and RIMS, and most of us already have our laptops for recipes, etc. nearby, why not combine them? I imagine you could also have a timer set up to preheat water, so that'd be one less piece of equipment to purchase/install

One big thing I plan to do with my RIMS is use the BCS-460 to control a 5500w LD element in such a way that I can go full blast for heating strike water OR effectively lower the power to mimic a 1500w ULD element. I don't QUITE understand how this is being done, but know that they just upgraded the software for this capability.

The Pol said:

I am producing MY dream rig... individual opinions may vary. (which is the main reason for not doing a real "build thread" this time)

I dunno that BCS or Brewtroller would give me anything extra, and honestly I have no knowlege of how either interface with a laptop and the SSRs.

Click to expand...

The BCS interfaces to a computer via lan and you are basically using a web page. The brewtroller interfaces to a computer via USB. The brewtroller can operate independant of a PC the BCS-460 can not. The advantage of the brewtroller is the ability to read pressure so you can read the volume of fluid in your vessels. A nice feature of the bcs-460 is that because it works via lan it can be put on a wireless network for remote operation. It's a pick your poison type of thing.

I am just very surprised Mr. HERMS is actually building a RIMS. Way to be open minded Pol.

I am glad someone made me look at BCS... I am actually thinking this may be a solution to a problem I was facing with the panel I intended to build. I like the wireless application and the interface. I could get away with (4) element kill switches on my rig and that is it. The res of the functioanlity will be in the BCS via my laptop.

I am all about RIMS now, I may be getting a little carried away with wattage, but it is an experiement.

ScubaSteve said:

One big thing I plan to do with my RIMS is use the BCS-460 to control a 5500w LD element in such a way that I can go full blast for heating strike water OR effectively lower the power to mimic a 1500w ULD element. I don't QUITE understand how this is being done, but know that they just upgraded the software for this capability.

Click to expand...

Man a 5500 LD element RIMS Hex is going to be HUGE. The element is about 14" Long.

You can get the high low power by switching the element between 240v and 120v. at 120v it will run at 1/4th the power, something like 1375W not 1500. You would need a 6kW element for that.

I think you would need a fairly substantial flow rate to keep 5500W from boiling in the Rims chamber.

Is a 9000W RIMS heater a bad idea then? I mean, it will be capable of running at 4500W when I choose. 9000W will really only be for water heating. Shouldnt the PID, if autotuned, keep the heater, regardless of size, from boiling wort in the tube? If the temp probe is IN the tube? Seems like it would simply have shorter "ON" cycles than say a 1500W heater would have since it is capable of applying more heat in a shorter time.

If you have your temp probe in the hex set at the output where it can sense close (but not too close) to the element, it should be fine. If it rumbles a bit, I can reduce the cycle time. I'm probably going to go with 1.5" SS pipe, and a 4500-5500w LD element. Yes, it should be approx 18", but will sit in my rig in a low profile way. I plan on delivering fluid to and from the unit with SS tubing/swagelok fittings. I'm thinking about having a tee at the inlet, with the inlet flowing down, then having the cross at the outlet, with flow going up and a drain at the bottom. I've decided to be extra anal retentive regarding drainage of my system. I'm hard plumbing it, so I plan on opening a petcock or two and draining it dry.

I've got some serious power going under the hood of my build; a pump bigger than an 809HS, and rated for temp. Flow rates and priming aren't going to be a problem, and neither are stuck sparges I'm glad to be free from that damn March!

9000W will only be for water heating applications. (18 mins to get 10 gallons to strike temp)
4500W will be used for RIMS recirc/mashout/sparge (heating capability will exceed flow rate)

The BK will be operated at 9000W during the boil (9 mins to reach boil in 13 gal.)
The BK will be operated at 4500W during sparge water heating (22 mins to reach 168F during the mash portion)

What can one reasonably expect to get from a 30A 220V dryer circuit? Is a 5500w element too much, if I also plan on running accessories, like a pump and BCS? I would only either use the BK or RIMS, not both at the same time.

ScubaSteve said:

What can one reasonably expect to get from a 30A 220V dryer circuit? Is a 5500w element too much, if I also plan on running accessories, like a pump and BCS? I would only either use the BK or RIMS, not both at the same time.

Click to expand...

I used a March 809 (1.2A) and a 5500W element at the same time on a 30A circuit with no problems at all.

The Pol said:

I am glad someone made me look at BCS... I am actually thinking this may be a solution to a problem I was facing with the panel I intended to build. I like the wireless application and the interface. I could get away with (4) element kill switches on my rig and that is it. The res of the functioanlity will be in the BCS via my laptop.

I am all about RIMS now, I may be getting a little carried away with wattage, but it is an experiement.

Click to expand...

Pol,

I got a BCS about 2 weeks ago. I have used a PID and building my new system wanted to see what else was available. I also considered a Brewtroller, which appears to be more flexible and expandable but lacking on the interface.

So at this point, I'm planning to build around the BCS.
It's kinda hard to find "documentation" on it, though the guys that designed it appear to offer very good support. That's why I decided to buy it to figure out how to use it.

I think you will like the fact that you can log data from it. Along with many other features... I am a BCS noob, so if I can answer any question from that perspective, let me know.

Ed

Ohio-Ed said:

Pol,

I got a BCS about 2 weeks ago. I have used a PID and building my new system wanted to see what else was available. I also considered a Brewtroller, which appears to be more flexible and expandable but lacking on the interface.

So at this point, I'm planning to build around the BCS.
It's kinda hard to find "documentation" on it, though the guys that designed it appear to offer very good support. That's why I decided to buy it to figure out how to use it.

I think you will like the fact that you can log data from it. Along with many other features... I am a BCS noob, so if I can answer any question from that perspective, let me know.

Ed

Click to expand...

There is remote Brewtroller software. Granted is has to be connected to the brewtroller via a USB cable. The big advantage of the brewtroller is they have 16 valve or Pump outputs, 3 PID functions, 4 pressure inputs for reading liquid volumes, and 6 temperature sensor inputs. You are not limited to 5v inputs and outputs like the BCS-460. It can be difficult finding 5 volt relays for valves and pumps.

Excellent thread... I saw one question that I couldn't find an answer too...

Will a single wall outlet provide enough power to run both the pump and a small 1500w element without worrying about burning the house down?

jtrainer said:

Excellent thread... I saw one question that I couldn't find an answer too...

Will a single wall outlet provide enough power to run both the pump and a small 1500w element without worrying about burning the house down?

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Depends on what sort of circuit it is on? 15A? 20A?

1500W is about 12.5A
March 809 is about 1.2A

So you can run it on a 15A, but you are getting up there, really up there.

Sawdustguy said:

There is remote Brewtroller software. Granted is has to be connected to the brewtroller via a USB cable. The big advantage of the brewtroller is they have 16 valve or Pump outputs, 3 PID functions, 4 pressure inputs for reading liquid volumes, and 6 temperature sensor inputs. You are not limited to 5v inputs and outputs like the BCS-460. It can be difficult finding 5 volt relays for valves and pumps.

Click to expand...

SSRs wont work?

Sawdustguy said:

There is remote Brewtroller software. Granted is has to be connected to the brewtroller via a USB cable. The big advantage of the brewtroller is they have 16 valve or Pump outputs, 3 PID functions, 4 pressure inputs for reading liquid volumes, and 6 temperature sensor inputs. You are not limited to 5v inputs and outputs like the BCS-460. It can be difficult finding 5 volt relays for valves and pumps.

Click to expand...

Unless I'm mistaken, the Brewtroller remote software is for monitoring only... no update/adjustment functions (yet).

I just bought five new 8amp ssrs on ebay for $1.75 each. But I do agree mechanical relays seem to be hard to find.

I would have, and still may buy a Brewtroller, but that last time I looked (yesterday), they did not have the screen in stock. I agree the Brewtroller looks like a cool piece of equipment.

I am disappointed in what I have been able to find as far as documentation on both products.

Ed

I have several months before I can fire my RIMS heater up... but agree, I do HATE how little there is out there on the BCS 460... does it come with a damn manual?

I just realized something. I have a few boards I built a while back that takes a 0 to 5v input and drives a SPDT relay. It was an IO board for a PLC I had made, replace the connector with a cable and add a 12vdc power supply and it would work for ya'll. I think I have 2 boards, let me know if it is something you guys might be interested in.

The Pol said:

I have several months before I can fire my RIMS heater up... but agree, I do HATE how little there is out there on the BCS 460... does it come with a damn manual?

Click to expand...

Nope. That's why I ended up just buying one. I thought I would buy it and then just try to figure it out.

Some of the little things you kinda learn along the way (unless you are in this stuff all the time) are frustrating. For instance, 5vdc mechanical relays are hard to find or expensive compared to 12vdc. If you have rtd's for your pid's they are not compatible with the BCS or Brewtroller. BCS and Brewtroller temp probes are not interchangable, neither Brewtroller or BCS have Auto Tune functionality for the PIDs... and the list goes on.

Maybe we should take this to a new thread?


Ed

Ohio-Ed said:

Nope. That's why I ended up just buying one. I thought I would buy it and then just try to figure it out.

Some of the little things you kinda learn along the way (unless you are in this stuff all the time) are frustrating. For instance, 5vdc mechanical relays are hard to find or expensive compared to 12vdc. If you have rtd's for your pid's they are not compatible with the BCS or Brewtroller. BCS and Brewtroller temp probes are not interchangable, neither Brewtroller or BCS have Auto Tune functionality for the PIDs... and the list goes on.

Maybe we should take this to a new thread?


Ed

Click to expand...

NO AUTOTUNE? WHAT GOOD IS THAT??? Lets take this to this thread I started....

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/bcs-460-tell-me-all-about-156018/

Sawdustguy said:

It can be difficult finding 5 volt relays for valves and pumps.

Click to expand...

Shouldn't this work?

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=9

Input Voltage 3-32VDC

(no affiliation, just bought from them before)

bakins said:

Shouldn't this work?

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=9

Input Voltage 3-32VDC

(no affiliation, just bought from them before)

Click to expand...

He's talking mechanical relays, not SSRs. SSRs are about all the BCS is good for controlling that is readily available.

bakins said:

Shouldn't this work?

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=9

Input Voltage 3-32VDC

(no affiliation, just bought from them before)

Click to expand...

10A SSRs on Ebay for $9

40A with Heatsink for $15, shipped

The Pol said:

10A SSRs on Ebay for $9

40A with Heatsink for $15, shipped

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Yesterday I ordered 5, 8amp SSR's from ebay (all they had), for $1.75 each. They claim to be New, Old Stock.

So they are out there.

I have the Auber 40amp SSR & Heat Sink, I don't care much for the Heat Sink, I'd like to find a different design for my new build.

Ed

The Pol said:

I have several months before I can fire my RIMS heater up... but agree, I do HATE how little there is out there on the BCS 460... does it come with a damn manual?

Click to expand...

I have one going in my build, so no "real" experience. Right now it is monitoring the room temp of my basement, through a wireless repeater. Works great. No manual, all info is on the website or the Wiki.

I think one thing that needs to be considered is these are not big commercial products. I believe they (BCS, Brewtroller) are basically products built by brewers with a knack for electronics. So may not have the "polish" of a bigger product.

RonRock said:

I have one going in my build, so no "real" experience. Right now it is monitoring the room temp of my basement, through a wireless repeater. Works great. No manual, all info is on the website or the Wiki.

I think one thing that needs to be considered is these are not big commercial products. I believe they (BCS, Brewtroller) are basically products built by brewers with a knack for electronics. So may not have the "polish" of a bigger product.

Click to expand...

Ron - I think I saw a message from you on the ECC forum about power requirements for the BCS so you don't have to use the wall wort. I noticed your question was never answered. Did you find an answer somewhere else?

I don't want to put an outlet in my box.

Ed

Ohio-Ed said:

Ron - I think I saw a message from you on the ECC forum about power requirements for the BCS so you don't have to use the wall wort. I noticed your question was never answered. Did you find an answer somewhere else?

I don't want to put an outlet in my box.

Ed

Click to expand...

Ed,

I think the control for the remote software will be done in a month. The guys at the brewtroller site are taking great pains to make the brewtroller a product you don't need an electronics degree to implement. The brewtroller is only about 6 months old. The BCS has 5 volt outputs at fairly low current so controlling something you would want to control with a mechanical relay like pumps and valves are difficult. The beautiful thing about the brewtroller is that the outputs sink current so you could use almost any voltage dc coil relay you want for the pumps and valves. Of course you could use SSRs if you choose. You can also buy a premade relay board for switching your pumps and valves with the brewtroller. Also the BCS ties you into having a PC. With the brewtroller it is optional.

Ohio-Ed said:

Ron - I think I saw a message from you on the ECC forum about power requirements for the BCS so you don't have to use the wall wort. I noticed your question was never answered. Did you find an answer somewhere else?

I don't want to put an outlet in my box.

Ed

Click to expand...

I got a couple suggestions, posts 39 & 40 in my build thread. But I forgot to mention that I need DC voltage. Still should be an easy circuit just a matter of figuring it out and doing it. I've been sidetracked lately.

Still open to ideas if any come around.

Sawdustguy said:

Ed,

I think the control for the remote software will be done in a month. The guys at the brewtroller site are taking great pains to make the brewtroller a product you don't need an electronics degree to implement. The brewtroller is only about 6 months old. The BCS has 5 volt outputs at fairly low current so controlling something you would want to control with a mechanical relay like pumps and valves are difficult. The beautiful thing about the brewtroller is that the outputs sink current so you could use almost any voltage dc coil relay you want for the pumps and valves. Of course you could use SSRs if you choose. You can also buy a premade relay board for switching your pumps and valves with the brewtroller. Also the BCS ties you into having a PC. With the brewtroller it is optional.

Click to expand...

Guy,
The fact that you have to shop around for the Brewtroller components (display, power supply, display cable) make a bit challenging for those that don't deal with electronics on a regular basis.

Don't get me wrong... I originally planned to buy one, and I still may. I am busy with building kegs and working on the power side of my rig right now and don't have time to learn another controller right now.

From my perspective, the Brewtroller is fairly "geeky" for most.

BTW... I plan to use SSRs for pumps. (my plan is 3 heat elements, 2 pumps)

Ed

Ohio-Ed said:

Guy,
The fact that you have to shop around for the Brewtroller components (display, power supply, display cable) make a bit challenging for those that don't deal with electronics on a regular basis.

Don't get me wrong... I originally planned to buy one, and I still may. I am busy with building kegs and working on the power side of my rig right now and don't have time to learn another controller right now.

From my perspective, the Brewtroller is fairly "geeky" for most.

BTW... I plan to use SSRs for pumps. (my plan is 3 heat elements, 2 pumps)

Ed

Click to expand...

This is not as straight forward as it appears either. If you have purchased SSR's already and they are zero crossing, exchange them for non zero crossing SSR's for the pumps and/or valves. It is not as simple as just buying an SSR. Non zero crossing SSR's isolate the input from the output for inductive loads like a motor or solenoid. This is important so noise does not affect your BCS-460. Zero crossing SSR's are ok for resistive loads like elements but not inductive loads.

Pol,

The above post reminded me to warn you also to buy non zero crossing SSR's for controlling your motors and valves.