RIMS for Dummies

[The Pol]

Pol,

The above post reminded me to warn you also to buy non zero crossing SSR's for controlling your motors and valves.

Too late for that... now I have (2) 25A SSRs I cannot use and have to try to find NON zero crossing for the pumps.

 

[unholymess]

Pol,

The above post reminded me to warn you also to buy non zero crossing SSR's for controlling your motors and valves.

You want to make sure they have opto-isolators or to put opto-isolators on the input side. SSRs have a nasty habit of fusing the hot load to the control side when then melt. The isolator will ensure that the control device (BCS, brewtroller, PID) isn't harmed when the SSR spits out the magic blue smoke.

 

[The Pol]

Okay, so the pump control seems to be a biznatch...

Where can I find NON zero crossing SSRs? The only ones I see are ZERO CROSSING.

Also, I have never seen any SSR spec'd as having opto-isolators... so where do I find those?

I cant wait to have this thing built and have a parts list to go from for the next... I hate sourcing parts.

OR where can I source simple mechanical relays for the pumps? 5v signal, 5A or more draw.

 

[Sawdustguy]

You want to make sure they have opto-isolators or to put opto-isolators on the input side. SSRs have a nasty habit of fusing the hot load to the control side when then melt. The isolator will ensure that the control device (BCS, brewtroller, PID) isn't harmed when the SSR spits out the magic blue smoke.

That is exactly why you want to use non zero crossing SSR's. The Non Zero Crossing SSR is electrically isolated from input to output.

 

[RonRock]

Sorry for dragging this thread off topic.

This is the first I've heard of "Zero Crossing/Non Zero Crossing SSR's"

I'm planning on Crydom D2425 to switch my March 809's. I searched for spec's after reading this, but could find nothing about Zero Crossing. Is this a spec by some other name? TBH there is a lot of info I don't understand in the spec sheets.

I know we are getting off topic could be moved or start another.



Spec Sheet

http://datasheet.octopart.com/D2425-Crydom-datasheet-2269.pdf

 

[The Pol]

Sorry for dragging this thread off topic.

This is the first I've heard of "Zero Crossing/Non Zero Crossing SSR's"

I'm planning on Crydom D2425 to switch my March 809's. I searched for spec's after reading this, but could find nothing about Zero Crossing. Is this a spec by some other name? TBH there is a lot of info I don't understand in the spec sheets.

I know we are getting off topic could be moved or start another.

Lets keep it going over here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/bcs-460-tell-me-all-about-156018/index6.html

 

[CodeRage]

What? I don't understand why zero crossing would affect the operation of an inductive load. Some one mentioned something about opto isolators. I haven't seen an SSR without an opto on the control line. The ones from auber have optos, unless you got them some where else show me the spec sheet.

Zero crossing means the SSR wont close the load side until the AC voltage is at 0V in it's cycle, or has crossed 0V in one direction or the other. Non Zero means it will turn on anywhere in the AC waveform.

I have an extra SSR laying around and would like to test this in the next couple of days.

Here is a link to the spec sheet for the SSRs I use, http://www.automationdirect.com/static/specs/ssrelays.pdf, the operation section does a good job explaining how SSRs in general work.

Oops, posted in the wrong thread but I will leave it here just in case.

 

[Sawdustguy]

What? I don't understand why zero crossing would affect the operation of an inductive load. Some one mentioned something about opto isolators. I haven't seen an SSR without an opto on the control line. The ones from auber have optos, unless you got them some where else show me the spec sheet.

Zero crossing means the SSR wont close the load side until the AC voltage is at 0V in it's cycle, or has crossed 0V in one direction or the other. Non Zero means it will turn on anywhere in the AC waveform.

I have an extra SSR laying around and would like to test this in the next couple of days.

Here is a link to the spec sheet for the SSRs I use, http://www.automationdirect.com/static/specs/ssrelays.pdf, the operation section does a good job explaining how SSRs in general work.

Oops, posted in the wrong thread but I will leave it here just in case.

The non zero-crossing SSR uses a phototriac coupler to isolate the input from the output. When the input signal is activated, the output immediately turns on, since there is no zero-crossing detector circuit. The load current is maintained by the triac's latching effect after the input signal is deactivated, until the AC load voltage crosses zero. They highly recommended to isolate the input from the effects of an inductive load such as back emf and motor induced noise.

 

[CodeRage]

The non zero-crossing SSR uses a phototriac coupler to isolate the input from the output. When the input signal is activated, the output immediately turns on, since there is no zero-crossing detector circuit. The load current is maintained by the triac's latching effect after the input signal is deactivated, until the AC load voltage crosses zero. They highly recommended to isolate the input from the effects of an inductive load such as back emf and motor induced noise.

Dude, they are all opto isolated. Zero or Non zero. The only difference is one has a Zero Cross circuit. Here's a spec sheet for a photo triac coupler in both Zero and Nonzero. http://pewa.panasonic.com/pcsd/tech_info/pdf/semi_eng_ptw.pdf
Both have opto's isolating the input. My zero cross SSR's schematic has an opto isolator in it. Input isolation and zero crossing are apples and oranges bro.

 

[The Pol]

If it works for you Code, I will keep my 25A SSRs and see what I can make explode

 

[CodeRage]

I'll update this thread too. I tested a zero cross ssr and it worked fine.

 

[Sawdustguy]

I believe you. However they do recommend non zero crossing SSR's for inductive loads, but not for the reason I stated. I was just reading about these SSR's (I am an RF amplifier designer) and because I don't usually don't deal with anything below 100MHz I am not an expert on this stuff. Here is a good article I just read on the different types of SSR's:

http://pewa.panasonic.com/pcsd/tech_info/pdf/semi_eng_ssr2.pdf

 

[The Pol]

So, the snubber SHOULD deal with the spike...

Question...

is the affect of the spike related to the amp draw and rated amperage of the SSR?

I mean... if I am using a 5A pump on an 8A SSR would the spike more likely be detrimental than if I have a 1.2A pump on a 25A SSR?

I am no electrical guru so this is all smart speak to me.

 

[Sawdustguy]

So, the snubber SHOULD deal with the spike...

Question...

is the affect of the spike related to the amp draw and rated amperage of the SSR?

I mean... if I am using a 5A pump on an 8A SSR would the spike more likely be detrimental than if I have a 1.2A pump on a 25A SSR?

I am no electrical guru so this is all smart speak to me.

I would have to say you would be fine. After reading up a little it seems as if solenoids would be more of a problem than a pump and even with the solenoid valve the snubber would take care of the back emf spike. It seems that non zero crossing SSR's would be required in circuits where a large back emf spike could occur. To paraphrase, use what you have and you will be ok. This is what happens when I put my mouth in gear before I clutch my brain. Mia culpa. Sorry guys for the scare. I am just trying to help.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I would have to say you would be fine. After reading up a little it seems as if solenoids would be more of a problem than a pump and even with the solenoid valve the snubber would take care of the back emf spike. It seems that non zero crossing SSR's would be required in circuits where a large back emf spike could occur. To paraphrase, use what you have and you will be ok. This is what happens when I put my mouth in gear before I clutch my brain. Mia culpa. Sorry guys for the scare. I am just trying to help.

Guy,

Personally, I appreciate you taking the time to get involved.

Ed

 

[The Pol]

Sawdust... I appreciate your concern and thoughtful evaluation of the issue.

Are you anywhere near JFK or Laguardia?

 

[Sawdustguy]

Sawdust... I appreciate your concern and thoughtful evaluation of the issue.

Are you anywhere near JFK or Laguardia?

I live on eastern Long Island but I can be in the area. I will drop you a PM the next time I am in the area and we cab grab a beer. Thank Pol.

 

[The Pol]

I live on eastern Long Island but I can be in the area. I will drop you a PM the next time I am in the area and we cab grab a beer. Thank Pol.

I will let you know when I am out in LGA or JFK again with a suitable layover...

I do appreciate the help yall give to us low lifes.

 

[Sawdustguy]

I will let you know when I am out in LGA or JFK again with a suitable layover...

I do appreciate the help yall give to us low lifes.

The pleasure is mine but you have taught me more about HERMS than you know. Great place this HBT!

 

[wh4tig0t]

SO before i switch over to the other thread on the BCS lemme just ask one thing.

If I have a 2000w 120v rims heater and a 10gal igloo cooler mlt, am i going to be able to do anything more than maintain temps for a 5 gal batch? I suppose it would let me adjust temps (140's up to 150's maybe), but from what you all are saying it would be pretty impractical to do a step mash with. I'm planning on a simple brutus 20 with a 2 gallon HLT as some have suggested, but If rims isn't going to get me anything extra i may just go very simple, like jkarps, one pump, one element and a PID and gravity, vs 2 pumps w/rims like coderage and a BCS.

 

[humann_brewing]

So I am starting to look into this now but have a dumb question. Why is the sensor that is controlling the PID on the output after the liquid is heated? I know this would be good to know, but don't you want to control the temp of the mash accurately?

 

[The Pol]

Thanks Sawdustguy...

You inspired me...

My dual 9000W RIMS tube in the middle... Inspired by this thread.

 

[lamarguy]

Why is the sensor that is controlling the PID on the output after the liquid is heated?

Because the PID is only responsible for controlling the temperature of the wort volume (e.g., 0.5 gal/min) exiting the tube.

If you attempted to tune a PID to control for the entire volume of wort in the mash tun, the response would be incredibly slow or the integral function would push the wort flowing out of the tube at 10+F higher than the wort in the tun, depending on the wattage and flow. Make sense?

 

[CodeRage]

So I am starting to look into this now but have a dumb question. Why is the sensor that is controlling the PID on the output after the liquid is heated? I know this would be good to know, but don't you want to control the temp of the mash accurately?

It takes time for the heat coming out of the RIMS chamber to absorb and spread across the grain bed. By the time the sensor in the mash detects it is time to shut off it is too late. There is still a ton of heat above it that hasn't worked it's way to the element, causing an over shoot. Plus the temps in the RIMS chamber will hit boiling long before the probe ever sees a change in the bulk of the mass.

If you monitor the temp leaving the hex, a small overshoot will be corrected quickly and there for no super hot mash will be introduced to the grain for any extended period of time or volume. That and if the Rims chamber doesnt exceed temps there is no way the grain bed will.

The way around it would be to have a detuned PID and then you would be waiting a long time for temps.

 

[humann_brewing]

Because the PID is only responsible for controlling the temperature of the wort volume (e.g., 0.5 gal/min) exiting the tube.

If you attempted to tune a PID to control for the entire volume of wort in the mash tun, the response would be incredibly slow or the integral function would push the wort flowing out of the tube at 10+F higher than the wort in the tun, depending on the wattage and flow. Make sense?

I guess so, so you will still need to watch the temp in your mash and turn off the element/pump when necessary then or is there a way to automate that?

 

[ikonis]

Thanks Sawdustguy...

You inspired me...

My dual 9000W RIMS tube in the middle... Inspired by this thread.

Adopt me please.

Regardless... looks great.

 

[lamarguy]

so you will still need to watch the temp in your mash and turn off the element/pump when necessary then or is there a way to automate that?

Not at all.

If I mash-in at 145F, I set the PID to maintain 145F and I walk away. Whenever I choose to step to 154F, I set the PID to 154F and I...you guessed it - walk away. The wort exiting the RIMS heater should be within +-1F of the target temperature, thus you can (1) maintain mash temperature or (2) raise mash temperature.

Now, I believe it is necessary to have a thermometer in your mash tun so you can calculate how long it takes to step the entire mash volume from one temperature to another, assuming you step mash.

 

[humann_brewing]

Not at all.

If I mash-in at 145F, I set the PID to maintain 145F and I walk away. Whenever I choose to step to 154F, I set the PID to 154F and I...you guessed it - walk away. The wort exiting the RIMS heater should be within +-1F of the target temperature, thus you can (1) maintain mash temperature or (2) raise mash temperature.

Now, I believe it is necessary to have a thermometer in your mash tun so you can calculate how long it takes to step the entire mash volume from one temperature to another, assuming you step mash.

Ok, sounds good, that makes sense. I have only mashed once in my new keggle and lost a ton of heat and couldn't control it well at all with direct fire and circulating. I need to get some RIMs going and insulate

 

[kryolla]

the temp in my RIMS tube doesn't match the temp in my mash tun so I just adjust it accordingly. I have a NIST calibrated thermometer in my mash tun so its accurate

 

[The Pol]

I will control the RIMS with a temp probe at the RIMS outlet.

I will also monitor the MLT outlet temp with the BCS controller. This is for monitoring only, so that I can easily cross check the MLT outlet with the RIMS set point/exit temp.

 

[humann_brewing]

So what are the optimal numbers for maintaining mash temps and doing a mashout?

I mean, I have seen 1 1/2 x 6, 2x6, 2x8, 2x10 etc for the nipple pipe. I have seen some using 240 elements, some 120 with varied wattage.

What is the advantage of using a 240 element, say 5500w at 120V. Something to do with being able to control the power more?


Anyways, remember I am no Pol here

 

[Sawdustguy]

Thanks Sawdustguy...

You inspired me...

My dual 9000W RIMS tube in the middle... Inspired by this thread.

The pleasure is mine (as I wipe the drool off of my face when looking at the picture of your setup). It just makes me smile when I see systems like yours come to life.

 

[The Pol]

The pleasure is mine (as I wipe the drool off of my face when looking at the picture of your setup). It just makes me smile when I see systems like yours come to life.

This place is a wealth of knowlege... when I started here in '07 I was learning how to convert a cooler. Now... look at what this community can cumulatively build. We just keep building on one anothers ideas... it is INSANE!!

Hope to wire my BCS up this coming week and heat some water at least.

 

[kryolla]

So what are the optimal numbers for maintaining mash temps and doing a mashout?

I mean, I have seen 1 1/2 x 6, 2x6, 2x8, 2x10 etc for the nipple pipe. I have seen some using 240 elements, some 120 with varied wattage.

What is the advantage of using a 240 element, say 5500w at 120V. Something to do with being able to control the power more?

Anyways, remember I am no Pol here

I used this thread parts list which is 2x10. Some people us 240 so they can reach boiling point within a reasonable amount of time. I have propane so I just use 120v just to maintain mash temps. My typical brew day is heat up strike water on my electric stove, mash with RIMS to maintain mash temps (5g cooler with FB), heat sparge water on my stove, use propane to boil wort. So 120v RIMS heater works for my application

 

[Sawdustguy]

So what are the optimal numbers for maintaining mash temps and doing a mashout?

I mean, I have seen 1 1/2 x 6, 2x6, 2x8, 2x10 etc for the nipple pipe. I have seen some using 240 elements, some 120 with varied wattage.

What is the advantage of using a 240 element, say 5500w at 120V. Something to do with being able to control the power more?


Anyways, remember I am no Pol here

The advantage of using a 220 vac 5500 watt element at 120 VAC is that you will be turning the 5500 watt high density element at 220 VAC into an 1125 watt low density element at 120 vac. Because the 220 VAC 5500 watt element is physically longer you are spreading the 1125 watts over a larger surface area, therefor lowering the watt density and preventing scortching.

 

[CodeRage]

...therefor lowering the watt density and preventing scortching.

Allegedly

 

[humann_brewing]

The advantage of using a 220 vac 5500 watt element at 120 VAC is that you will be turning the 5500 watt high density element at 220 VAC into an 1125 watt low density element at 120 vac. Because the 220 VAC 5500 watt element is physically longer you are spreading the 1125 watts over a larger surface area, therefor lowering the watt density and preventing scortching.

Ahh that is what I was looking for that is nice. So does it just depend on how you wire it to the pid?

 

[CodeRage]

Ahh that is what I was looking for that is nice. So does it just depend on how you wire it to the pid?

No, it maters how you wire the element. You wire one side to one of the legs, and the other side to the neutral. You will use an SSR to open and close the circuit. The PID tells the SSR to turn on which turns on the element. If you add a second SSR and replaced the Neutral with the other 240v leg the element will now run at 240.

I think the electrical primer goes over this.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Allegedly

Only time will tell.....

 

[kryolla]

The advantage of using a 220 vac 5500 watt element at 120 VAC is that you will be turning the 5500 watt high density element at 220 VAC into an 1125 watt low density element at 120 vac. Because the 220 VAC 5500 watt element is physically longer you are spreading the 1125 watts over a larger surface area, therefor lowering the watt density and preventing scortching.

if you dont plan on using 220 then why not just get a 120v element for RIMS tube. I think a 220 heating element is for people that only use electric so they can get the wort up to boiling point.