Yorkshire Square on a home level?

[user 246304]

Thanks Northern, I can work with that. Seemed weird to think they did this for 3 days, come hell or high water, but I didn't think to go by gravity which or course, makes sense. Thanks again.

 

[madscientist451]

I was taught that the system was originally devised as a means to achieve clarification of the beer while it was in the fermenter and to ensure complete fermentation when using dodgy ingredients.

My issue with the CYBI clones, is that they are essentially cloning old bottled beer, which is often pasteurized and showcases much more oxidation character than fresh draft product.

I considered the fact that the CYBI clone was compared to a bottled version, not cask or draft,
however the tasting panel was made up of experienced brewers/tasters so I'm thinking they took that difference into account. I have no way of knowing that, its total conjecture.
My limited research leads me to agree with bierhaus15, the goal for the last 100+ years was to produce clear beer. However, I don't see how the pump over process clears the beer, if anything it stirs it up. What the pumping over DOES accomplish is a faster fermentation. I believe the brewer interviewed for the CYBI episode said it was done in 3-4 days?
Has anyone ever seen a beer clearing while fermentaion is active? I haven't, but then again, I never really thought about it before. Once fermentation is finished, beer does settle, gets clear and can be drawn off.
And faster fermentation means faster turn around, more beer and more profits. I'm still thinking that the pump over process has more to do with profits than than it does to clear beer or flavor. The fact the flavor was acceptable or even sought after was a bonus for keeping the process going, but not the main reason.
We can't go back and ask the original owners of the breweries why they did certain things, and there are many things we can only guess about.
So back to my original question, if two beers were made, one left alone to ferment, one pumped or poured over, when they are both finished, will anyone be able to notice a difference? (I think yes) And which one will be preferred? Will a closed agitation produce a better beer?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Having just listened to the CYBI Riggwelter interview, it's worth noting that whilst the main fermentation is 3 days, they're then conditioning for a couple of weeks - and they're relying on existing sugar for carbonation, in cask at least, so they're obviously a bit above FG after the 3 days, it's not fermented out by that stage.

I'm not sure I completely buy the faster turn-round thing given you're talking about shaving the odd day off a total of a couple of weeks of fermentation/conditioning - it's significant extra complexity which would likely cost more than an extra tank or two. If you want throughput, you go for a tower. Certainly in the UK squares are regarded as a throw-back that are only retained by brewers that deliberately seek out that "Yorkshire" taste.

As to what they're cloning - I've also listened to their Bombardier interview, where towards the end they talk a bit about whether the difference in the clone is down to staleness of the target, and they think probably not (ie it's a "clone failure") but they're not sure. I sense that they've had some cask beer but in general not the cask version of the beers they're cloning - and they explicitly try to match the US bottled versions rather than the original cask versions, which can be significantly different. They recognise that there is a difference - but try to clone the bottled version anyway.

I do get the impression that the average US homebrewer - present company obviously excepted - thinks that British beers are stronger than they really are, with a plethora of ESBs, and a flavour of muted hops, a whiff of cardboard, and a strong shot of priming sugar from underconditioning. Going to London tourist pubs will only reinforce that impression...

 

[madscientist451]

I'm not sure I completely buy the faster turn-round thing given you're talking about shaving the odd day off a total of a couple of weeks of fermentation/conditioning - it's significant extra complexity which would likely cost more than a extra tank or two. If you want throughput, you go for a tower.

A tower is a big conical tank? Never heard it called that before, or are you referring to something else?
I wasn't clear in my post, but I was talking about the historical reasons for using the pump-over process with the WY 1469 yeast. They didn't have big conical tanks back then.
And if they did, they would still want to agitate the wort somehow.
My observations of the 1469 yeast is that it slows down if you don't agitate it. It will finish eventually but takes much longer. I'm thinking the pump over shaves maybe a week or more off the process. I can't remember how long they fermented the CYBI clone version.
10 days? 2 weeks? Something like that.
Someday I'll run a split batch and find out for certain how long it takes and if there is a difference.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Tower fermenters allow continuous fermentation, with CO2 rousing to achieve huge yeast densities that ferment wort in 3-4 hours. They've rather fallen out of favour here, they're associated with the dark days of the mid-20th century where process efficiency was prized above taste and they're a bit fussy about yeast, which is one reason Whitbread B became so popular.

1469 is a notoriously slow yeast, remember it's not the one that Sheep use. It will be interesting to see how G gets on with the Hardy & Hanson yeast. Interestingly the Timmy's corporate video makes no mention of rousing (doesn't mean they don't do it, but Sheep go on about it a lot), and they look like basic open fermenters. Instead they emphasise how they prefer to take the slow option if it improves the beer. Also interesting that their yeast only dates back to the 1960s, I wonder if they were another brewery that used to use the British Pure Yeast Company which closed down in 1957.

 

[user 246304]

Interesting discussion guys, I'm enjoying following it. As far as I know, Black Sheep's rousing regime - and the reason for all such systems - is simply to reintroduce wort with floc'ed out yeast. This is peculiar to their yeast, and others like it, that floc so readily. I think it's also important to note that they're not just rousing, but rousing with floc'ed yeast splayed out across a false floor - so I think anyway, this basically forces yeast and wort to hang together some measure more than in the case where they simply pump wort back up and over, in an open vessel without the true Yorkshire Square system, with a false floor, organ pipes, etc.

I definitely believe it has nothing to do with economy, as they take such pride in saying it's this kind of care that lends their beer a distinctive character. So they've told Michael Jackson and others, anyway.

And Northern, agree, on the conditioning. After their slow cool of a few days, a rest in the open a further couple of days, the conditioning at cool temp, and then off to the cask. So that is evidence there's quite a bit going on all the way through. I recall how much I rued I didn't have in place such a closeness with my beer, my yeast, that I could say, "plenty of sugar, plenty of yeast" to send it to cask without any added yeast or priming. That's tight, to me. Though I note he did mention a yeast count so it seems they do make sure there's enough going in?

Something I just picked up somewhere - because to hear him say they slow cool to 10C as a kind of "diacetyl rest - is that they like to do a slow cool down and long cool conditioning because they fear too much time at primary fermentation temps will essentially scrub too much away, the estery and other notes they cherish in their ales. It's unique, or seems to to me, and I'd like to ponder on this a bit.

For my own efforts, unfortunately this is going to be a long build for me, one that I have to do in stages. Medically and financially (funny how those two can be related) there are reality checks to my surging ambitions. Once again, someone here (sorry, whoever it is, can't recall) built this:

And I intend to do it as well. I intend to rouse, with a fishtail if I can fashion it, but otherwise with something that can give as violent a spraying as I can get. For the time being, I am thinking I'll ferment in my Spike MLT, actually, which is set up pretty well.

The real issue for me is finding a way to make our garage work - some kind of fermentation chamber - or having to grab my son to help haul the heavy vessel with 12ish gallons in it, downstairs to the basement where there's a decent chamber already in place, one I used for cheesemaking. But if we have to haul inside, that means a transfer from the BK to something like a keg, then a transfer from the keg to the open fermentor, and I'm not very sanguine about the double transfer. I'd vastly prefer just to roll the fermentor into a garage chamber, but the garage is really far from being ready for anything like that.

So, basically saying, if anyone has any thoughts that spring up on how to handle this open fermentation when brewing outside, wide open to them. Thanks again!

 

[bierhaus15]

I'm thinking the pump over shaves maybe a week or more off the process. I can't remember how long they fermented the CYBI clone version. 10 days? 2 weeks? Something like that

There are still a few Alan Pugsley Ringwood breweries using fishtails and continuously pitching their Yorkshire Ringwood yeast. I don't know any that use squares, but I've visited enough of them to know their shtick was they could make beer in 5 days or less. The beers were pretty terrible (diacetyl bombs) but they produced them quickly, with no finings or filtration. I'd imagine the fishtail helps speed up fermentation; keeps yeast is aerobic growth phase for longer, resulting in more yeast growth = faster fermentation and increased diacetyl production.

 

[user 246304]

That's interesting bierhaus and I had that thought too, that they were keeping the aerobic phase sustained - though I'd thought it's because this traditional practice made it difficult to get O2 to the yeast at all so they have to do this, not that it was an economic move to speed up production. I usually think in a kind of evolutionary term - that if a brewery keeps to a practice that's been done a long time, through many economic paradigm shifts, I'll look to other reasons than sheer balance sheet considerations. After all, if keeping the beer in the aerobic growth phase was the consideration, all they'd have to do is goose it with pure O2 in a sustained flow.

I loathe the Ringwood strain and have never produced anything I'd call palatable with it (or what is presented as Ringwood when I buy it). I don't think you can apply the fermentation dynamics of that strain to another's, e.g. Black Sheep's, practice. I find BS's beers very clean, actually. Going on memory but I don't recall any issue with excessive diacetyl, and I'm pretty sensitive to it.

 

[cire]

Has anyone ever seen a beer clearing while fermentaion is active? I haven't, but then again, I never really thought about it before. Once fermentation is finished, beer does settle, gets clear and can be drawn off.

All those who've worked with a proper Yorkshire yeast.

My first was in the fermenter for 7 days at 70F and after skimming was cooled and a day later found to have attenuated by only 30%. The beer was perfectly clear, so was roused and with 3 hours the krausen had fully returned and after another 3 hours the beer was once again clear and it took nearly another week to suitably attenuate.

I believe that if such a yeast is roused regularly and top cropped it will continue to work in this way. If however it repropogated from slurry, in time it will not and will complete fermentation in the way you describe.

My Hardy and Hanson yeast was obtained from Brewlab and I think it is the original strain, not from Black Sheep. When first pitched it was roused and while that did speed fermentation, it didn't perform like the previous strain. However, subsequent repitching from top cropping with rousing it is now starting to operate in a very similar way to the first.

Black Sheep is a relatively new brewery, it's beers are new based on traditional ideas. The brewery is cobbled together, the hot side was taken from Hartley's of Ulverston when it was closed by Robinson's, the fermenters from Thorne when it was closed by Vaux. My own thoughts are that there is a mix of traditional and modern there to be very cautious before assuming Riggwelter is completely traditional and might be replicated using those methods. The brewery is worth visiting if only to sink a pint of each of their beers. If you do, take notes at the time, don't rely on memory.

Pitch a Yorkshire yeast and rouse it regularly until it is at the desired gravity. Skim the yeast leaving a half inch covering and cool. Cask and leave alonewhen it will continue to carbonate slowly for an extended period. Roll the cask around every day and it carbonates very quickly. Leave it still for just a day or two and the beer will clear and be ready to serve.

 

[user 246304]

Thank you cire. As always I appreciate the closing of the gap between both my distance and my romanticism from your reality of being there, and bearing your history and practical wisdom. I want to chew on these thoughts.

The HH I acquired - this is Hardy and Hanson, the same as yours, or Black Sheep (I'm not clear if you're saying Black Sheep's originated with HH and has morphed due to a different practice, or is actually an entirely different provenance - sorry, I'm not well versed in this)?

You indicate, rouse until desired FG, in a word. How would you relate this to the BS practice, the fishtail rousing every 3 hours, through, let's use Northern's notion, 5-10 pts. above FG? Do you mean, using Black Sheep's technique, to rouse all the way through to FG?

Or perhaps you mean your example, from your first paragraph. Basically, if I understand you, just bring the sleeping yeast back into work, monitoring attenuation, until you reach FG. There's no routine: "every 3 hours, 6 min. recirc...through to FG + 5-10 pts."

Your last paragraph is straightforward; all your post is workable, just wanting to clear up a couple of points. Having concluded I'll be needing to weld the frame myself, there will be some time here, particularly to get or build a suitable space where I feel comfortable running open ferments. This information is fantastic, though, and I'm very eager to incorporate the work in trying it all out.

 

[f00b4r]

As to what they're cloning - I've also listened to their Bombardier interview, where towards the end they talk a bit about whether the difference in the clone is down to staleness of the target, and they think probably not (ie it's a "clone failure") but they're not sure. I sense that they've had some cask beer but in general not the cask version of the beers they're cloning - and they explicitly try to match the US bottled versions rather than the original cask versions, which can be significantly different. They recognise that there is a difference - but try to clone the bottled version anyway.

I do get the impression that the average US homebrewer - present company obviously excepted - thinks that British beers are stronger than they really are, with a plethora of ESBs, and a flavour of muted hops, a whiff of cardboard, and a strong shot of priming sugar from underconditioning. Going to London tourist pubs will only reinforce that impression...

This is a really important point about bottle versus cask, even disregarding the issues around freshness. I would say that north of 90% of UK bottled beers do not taste like the cask version, to the extent that in a blind taste test with both versions I think that people would not be able to pick out the "pairs". A UK inhabitant might be able to but only because they are aware from drinking the bottled versions over the years what they are rather than them actually tasting like the cask versions; unfortunately the flavour profile and ABV can really be significantly different.

 

[MyQuL]

It's a total of £15.90 to ship HH anywhere in the world.

An American guy on jims recently bought the Harvey's strain. He said it cost him a total of $21.39. $8 for the yeast and $13 for the shipping. I dont know if this works out the same as £15.90


I love English Bitter (probably because I live in London) and I've just came across this thread. I'm currently reading my way through it avidly. After I've finished doing that I'm going to look on youtube for some vid's on Yorkshire Squares/Rounds to see exactly how it all works

I'm not sure whether I'll ever bother trying out a 'square' but I might have a go at open fermentation in the future. I'm currently using the Gales strain for most things (might even put it in a stout next week to see what it's like), which I got out of a bottle of Gales HSB. It's got a nice soft frut flavour which I think would work well with open fermentation

 

[MyQuL]

I'll try to track some clips down, thanks, Hanglow. I wish I could harvest those yeasts, but everything we get here has to be dead. Have to do the only "business card harvest" method and bring it back.

The Brakspear strain was the first strain I cultured from a bottle of Triple. It stunk the apartment out with sulpher. Mrs MyQul was not impressed.
Sadly the triple is currently discontinued in bottles. I remember it being a tasty beer

 

[MyQuL]

Deleted............

 

[cire]

The HH I acquired - this is Hardy and Hanson, the same as yours, or Black Sheep (I'm not clear if you're saying Black Sheep's originated with HH and has morphed due to a different practice, or is actually an entirely different provenance - sorry, I'm not well versed in this)?

What you and I have are the same. The Theakston family's brewing history can be found in other places and it may help you with this project to search for it.
Paul Theakston obtained yeast for his Black Sheep Brewery from Hardy and Hanson of Nottingham and it is currently used in old Yorkshire squares, but mostly in more modern circular versions made from stainless steel. I'm suggesting the yeast used to make a Black Sheep beer this week will have adapted to its newer surroundings to be different to that at the originating brewery and probably what has been supplied to us. My first fermentation of HH was not as expected but expect that might change in subsequent pitching.

You indicate, rouse until desired FG, in a word. How would you relate this to the BS practice, the fishtail rousing every 3 hours, through, let's use Northern's notion, 5-10 pts. above FG? Do you mean, using Black Sheep's technique, to rouse all the way through to FG? Or perhaps you mean your example, from your first paragraph. Basically, if I understand you, just bring the sleeping yeast back into work, monitoring attenuation, until you reach FG. There's no routine: "every 3 hours, 6 min. recirc...through to FG + 5-10 pts."

Madscientist451 questioning "beer clearing while fermentation is active" is so totally valid for an overwhelming majority of yeasts, but not all, here is where the Yorkshire yeast is different. I can't explain why, only wonder, like the chicken and the egg, as to which came first, the yeast or the square. I use Yorkshire type yeast manually and rouse it when I can. I don't replicate what Black Sheep do, nor is there a single strain of this type and each have slightly different characteristics, but this is what I do.
Within 12 hours of pitching a large krausen forms rising continously, thickening at its upper surface. If left alone activity would diminish significantly, parting the krausen reveals a dark and still surface. At this point I would skim any hop oils and other debris present and stir in the krausen as best I can. Within 3 hours it returns larger than before and try to get as much as possible back into the wort which starts quite dark and colors up during the process and so it continues except during the night and when not at home. The more frequent it is roused the greater the attenuation, so it possible to stop at any point, although it will eventually reach its terminal gravity. Normally I stop at about 70% apparent attenuation, skim the excess and let it cool for a couple of days before casking.

Your last paragraph is straightforward; all your post is workable, just wanting to clear up a couple of points. Having concluded I'll be needing to weld the frame myself, there will be some time here, particularly to get or build a suitable space where I feel comfortable running open ferments. This information is fantastic, though, and I'm very eager to incorporate the work in trying it all out.

Maybe I'm at odds here or trying to tell my grandmother how to suck eggs, but Britain is but a few smallish islands and our brewing techniques are probably more than just continents apart.

As said, bottled beers and casked beers are only rarely comparable in any way including color. Carbonation is different, the bottles version usually filtered and pasteurised and not unusually, even of different gravity.

At Black Sheep they mash, sparge boil, chill and pitch in one day as is usual. They ferment warm for 3 to 4 before skimming and cooling gently before the beer is removed from the yeast and placed in conditioning tanks. After about a week it is casked with isinglass, continuing to slowly ferment and further condition on its journey to and in the cellar of a pub. There it will spend up to a month until needed when it will be tapped one day and if ready served the next day at cellar temperature by a hand pump at the bar.

That will not have been filtered, pasteurised or artificailly gassed while the bottled version will likely be sent in bulk to a bottling company where it will go through all the above and more and straight into distribution. Some beers are bottled at the brewery to be bottle conditioned. They are in the minority today and when this was normal practice, Yorkshire yeasts were know to be poor for bottle conditioning, particularly compared to those of Burton.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The real issue for me is finding a way to make our garage work - some kind of fermentation chamber - or having to grab my son to help haul the heavy vessel with 12ish gallons in it

Sounds like if he's not around then you either have a shorter brewlength - or cool it, then pitch and transfer to smaller vessels to move it and count the transfer as your first rouse?

if keeping the beer in the aerobic growth phase was the consideration, all they'd have to do is goose it with pure O2 in a sustained flow.

I loathe the Ringwood strain and have never produced anything I'd call palatable with it (or what is presented as Ringwood when I buy it).

Don't forget these practices date back to before you could just ring up and order pure O2, and now they're Traditional (and not followed by more "progressive" breweries...)

AIUI Wyeast 1187/WLP005 is just the high-floccing half of the Ringwood yeast, so in its defence you could be seeing only part of the story, it was presumably selected for ease of dropping more than taste. I'm out of area for the brewery so I've not had much of their beer, but I've been rather underwhelmed by what I have had in cask, and though they're common enough in supermarkets I always seem to find something more interesting instead... I've seen it suggested by random-people-on-the-internet that a) Conan is NCYC 1188 and thus b) it's the other half of Wyeast 1187. I've not seen anything solid to support those assertions, but Conan does feel like the high-attenuating half of a northern English double strain, so it's possible. Obviously there's the usual problem of NCYC secrecy - all we know is that NCYC 1188 is an ale strain deposited by a British brewery in 1960 - but I'd love to see some sequence data and family trees.

The brewery is cobbled together, the hot side was taken from Hartley's of Ulverston when it was closed by Robinson's, the fermenters from Thorne when it was closed by Vaux.

Per http://www.ibdlearningzone.org.uk/article/show/pdf/822/ and http://protzonbeer.co.uk/features/2...s-of-black-sheep-s-remarkable-brewing-success the first fermenters came from Hardy & Hanson's, they expanded with some from Darley's of Thorne - three of each AIUI, but it explains why they use Hardy's yeast, they got it as a "package". The Robbies connection continued, they bottled Black Sheep for a long time, not sure if that's still true.

@G you might enjoy both those articles, Protz has grist and hops for most of their beers, and mentions rousing every six hours. It's possible that Roger is getting his 3 hours and 6 minutes confused, practices have changed over time, or they rouse Riggwelter more often than the weaker beers. The 2007 IBD article is more interested in kit, but you get to the good stuff once you get past the details of their then new casking line. They stop rousing after 60-72 hours, when 3-4 points above racking gravity, which in turn will be a couple of points above FG. They go into nitty-gritty detail like EBC's and which hop farms they use, I hadn't realised that Fawcett's are a shareholder. I like the quote from Jonathan Virden, the Guinness brewer "There are two ways of selling beer – marketing and hops! Marketing is expensive, hops are cheap!" There's closeups of the squares on the final page.

The HH I acquired - this is Hardy and Hanson, the same as yours, or Black Sheep (I'm not clear if you're saying Black Sheep's originated with HH and has morphed due to a different practice, or is actually an entirely different provenance - sorry, I'm not well versed in this)?

I read it as the former - given that yeast is evolving through every generation, you have to be quite precise about the point at which it was stashed by NCYC/Brewlab etc. Evolution is most obvious in the Conan family where the sudden popularity of NEIPAs has led to it finding itself in a whole load of different breweries overnight, and people seem to be finding that "Conan" from different commercial suppliers differ significantly in the FV.

An American guy on jims recently bought the Harvey's strain. He said it cost him a total of $21.39. $8 for the yeast and $13 for the shipping. I dont know if this works out the same as £15.90

At current exchange rates £15.90 is US$21.42, so sounds about right. Harvey's is another northern strain that's found its way south, it came from John Smith's.

The Brakspear strain was the first strain I cultured from a bottle of Triple. It stunk the apartment out with sulpher. Mrs MyQul was not impressed.
Sadly the triple is currently discontinued in bottles. I remember it being a tasty beer

If you've got sulphur, you've probably got a conditioning yeast rather than the pitching yeast. Certainly other parts of the Marstons empire use conditioning yeast. The old Brakspear yeast originated at Mann - my guess is that it was the strain that Simpsons of Baldock bought from Mann in the 1930s and then distributed widely around the SE. But they lost it during all their corporate turmoil of the 90s/noughties, I assume the new one came from Marstons. So who knows what WLP023 and 1275 are - the fact that White Labs call the former "Burton Ale" rather suggests it came from Marstons.

[heh, the new multiquote system is quite cute once you get the hang of it!]

 

[user 246304]

Coming back slowly to this thread after a very late reply period Cire, Northern et al (for any who might be interested in this aged thread). I apologize for any rudeness in not replying and I hope, now that my brew frame is coming to completion, to be able to return your kindness and considered thoughts. I tend to think on one thing at a time, as limited or monomaniacal as that makes me, and here, it's been the frame and its concerns. You've given considerably and I want to honor that.

In wanting to truly give this kind of fermentation a whirl, a tri-clover setup and ss square, or round vessel, is in mind (although I'm thinking of just using one of my existing Spike vessels - near perfect in aspect ratio). Now, a recirc pump. It's a dumb question, I'm sure, but I can't see a standard centrifugal, non self-priming pump (e.g., another Chugger) to be appropriate at all. Any suggestions for a better solution in terms of a pump? This would be for the recirc through fermentation, and racking after.

Edit: Just to say, it is truly generous and a serious learning experience, gentlemen. PMs sent.

 

[MaryB]

Pump will need to be continuous duty.... check the specs on the brew pumps out there to see if they are that.

 

[user 246304]

Thanks Mary, I'll look into it. I don't actually know the term, but just to clarify, I'll need to be turning it on only every few hours, for 6 minutes or so, over the course of its primary fermentation. Does this still apply?

Is there such a thing as a small CIP setup that would be sanitary and work? And I might as well ask the dumb question that's been hanging with me from the start - but do they (e.g., Black Sheep) disassemble the pump and spreader plumbing assembly after every cycle, clean and and sanitize it before next cycle? Or wrap the open end up, or just leave it exposed entirely?

 

[cyberbackpacker]

I really think a peristaltic pump is the way to go on this. Sanitary, and you can keep your FV a "closed" system too if you orient the hoses properly.

 

[user 246304]

I really think a peristaltic pump is the way to go on this. Sanitary, and you can keep your FV a "closed" system too if you orient the hoses properly.

Thanks Kevin, hadn't even thought of that. I don't know I've ever used a peristaltic before (unless it was sometime, as a corpsman - a long time ago). Can you get a vigorous force with these? I'd like to pretty rigorously spray the krausen surface, when recirc'ing.

Interesting idea - thanks again.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

They sell all kinds of peristaltic pumps of varying capacities; personally I would look for a pump by Cole Parmer (Masterflex) and shoot for one with a pump head that accepts at least 1/4" tubing. That should give you more than enough force for a vigorous spray on the krausen surface based on my experience with them.

That said, there are a variety of motors and pump heads produced-- so it probably comes down to what specs you think are desirable and finding a pump to match those specs.

 

[user 246304]

Great, many thanks for the help, cyber.

 

[user 246304]

My fermentation chamber uses an A/C unit. So, I would be blowing nasty air over the top trying to keep it cool. Inside my house is like Grand Central Station with animals and people. I quickly dropped the idea all together.

Coming back and wrestling with this very thing right now. I'm OK using my space downstairs for now because the basement is about 55F, so I actually control by an inkbird and a small ceramic heater to raise to ferment temps. But this regime of bringing it down slowly to a 50F rest, can't do without, like you, using my a/c and coolbot and as I said in another thread right, might as well dust the open fermentor with a random mix of cultured yeasts and bacterias. So it seems an internal attemperator is the way to go, just don't have the engineering mind to come up with it.

 

[user 246304]

...Hold at 50F an additional 5-7 days, then package....

Well, we're there. Strong bitter that this time, overshot the mark - intended 14.5P OG, got 16.5 OG. But we're getting closer, lol. I have a couple ideas why, including over-reducing, and the fact I remembered some better mashing methods, now. Not complaining - will take a 16.5P strong bitter anyday. Have to parse the WP and hopstand IBU contributions, so we'll see there. But I think it's going to come out really good.

Because I'm going to dry hop with some First Gold, I'm going to have to parse the Black Sheep protocol a bit. But I'd also like to clarify, McKnuckle, if you happen to come to this. You mention a 5-7 day hold in the conditioning tank, but I have the brewer saying 1-2 days hold in the tank, "At which point they're offering beer to casks with yeast counts of about 1/2-3/4 million."

Did you get the CV period of 5-7 days while on tour? Appreciate the clarification. So far, here's what I have:

Slow start to the brewday - screwed up the water and had to start over. So was nightime by the time I was collecting and I collected at WAY too freaking cold. Cold night and I made no provision for cooling down outside while being collected. So I ended up at 54 (!) and had to stay up that night in the hope it would rise to 60. No go, had to sleep, so pitched at 56F, with worries.

Next morning, it had risen to 65 and I was getting a krausen. I began the rousing schedule of every 3 hours, rouse.

This morning, fully 68F. I'm calling this "day one of main ferment" and plan to keep the rouse q3h schedule through Monday morning, gravity sampling qd (every day).

Slow step to 50F over 48 hours (Wednesday morning). Maintain at 50F x 2 days.

Rack to dry hopping tank. Dry hop x 3 days. Isinglass and fine x 24 hours. Rack to (brite tank - force carb, keg/and or CP bottle); cask; bottling bucket for natural conditioning.

 

[user 246304]

McKnuckle, or others:

I've been on a British homebrewing site, which has been tremendously interesting. They've been really generous with their thoughts and I'm fascinated by how much they harvest yeast and open ferment, along with a lot of other practices I've yet to tap on their site.

I have my first "yorkshire square emulation" in tank and have had some issues with a really slow ferment. Basically, I'd just love to tighten up the precise routine Black Sheep (or Timothy Taylor) does, if possible. So here's my stab.

1. Pitch yeast at 60-63F. Do not oxygenate. Use fishtail that will late be used during rousing periods. I have seen many sources say they do not begin to rouse for 24-36-48 hours. Do these beers (1) get oxygenated by this fishtail recirc right away, even if the breweries wait to begin the regular pumping routine, or do they jump right in to the pump/rouse, every 3 hours, 6 minutes?

2. I presume they skim the brown krausen once it comes up and can be skimmed without taking the nascent little white krausen underneath. Something like 24 hours in.

3. Whenever it commences, the pumping and rousing routine continues to some set point. I have seen variances here - some ratio of expected attenuation (e.g., "1/4" or "1/5" from anticipated FG), or fermentable extract ("0.8-1.0" (DeClerck)). Most on the British site I saw seem to just take their rousing through to very close to FG. Say, 1.012 and finish to 1.009 on racking into a tank.

The rest is easy, I think. Black sheep does a cooldown to 10C of at least 36 hours, followed by 2 days at 10C, followed by transfer and conditioning in a conditioning tank where beer becomes ready for cask. Having some residual sugar and even a known concentration of active yeast seems to be important to this tradition, from what I've seen, with some (like Black Sheep) using no priming sugar.

Anyway, my main concern is over the rousing schedule: do they oxygenate their pitched wort; when do they start the pumped rousing ; when do they stop - and why do they stop there; and what residual extract markers do they use to send into secondary.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@Gadjobrinus Would love to hear an update on your experience if you're still working with the Yorkshire yeast?

Fascinating thread and I'm waiting on my White Labs Yorkshire Square yeast as soon as it is released from the Vault

 

[user 246304]

@Gadjobrinus Would love to hear an update on your experience if you're still working with the Yorkshire yeast?

Fascinating thread and I'm waiting on my White Labs Yorkshire Square yeast as soon as it is released from the Vault

Hey Mark, thanks for posting and I wish I had something for you. We moved and I'm trying to lock in a more permanent setup as I don't yet have water and electricity, though I've got a clean, dry garage. I can get electric more easily, but shuttling water back and forth from home to brewery (not to mention the reverse, for cleanup), is a no-go. Some health issues have gotten in the way, too. But I hope to get going soon, and after I get back in, to get back on this Yorkshire project. I do have a 10 gallon open square thanks to the goodness of another member here, and hope to setup a more proper environment so none of the stuff I learned has been tossed. For very special mention, I'd like to thank northern_brewer and cire for being the British brewers that have been really kind and generous in sharing their thoughts in this vein.

We'll get there! Thanks again for your interest!

 

[lowtones84]

Just wanted to say thanks all for the great read! Still working my way through it but have been fascinated by the idea for some time.

 

[kmarkstevens]

calling all Yeastie Boys. White Labs is going to put all vault yeast into production on 1 July. Here's your chance to get something like WLP85 that is collecting one single order every 6 months.

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-vau...244964713&mc_cid=4485d2e0c7&mc_eid=92ebff3dd0