Yorkshire Square on a home level?

[Gadjobrinus]

Sorry, I meant marmite! Fuller's had rows and rows of bins of their skimmed yeast, which were destined for marmite. It's one of these bins I skimmed and worked up when we got back, lol.

Yeah, I saw a lot of complaints on the 037. Trying to look into why. I've seen a lot of slow and stuck ferments, but I don't think I've seen sour, that sucks. And I think I also recall that it didn't clear, which is bizarre - don't you think? "Highly flocculant," etc.? Did you ever get in touch with white labs about it?

On its origin, yeah, just a gut thing but that's my thought to. In listening to the Black Sheep interview though, with him mentioning it's a multi-strain they use, and they have a specific regimen to keep the ratios as consistent as they can, I think that would be really hard on the home level.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

You really can't go wrong with 1469, it's one of my favs.

Thanks Deere. Yeah, that was my original choice though I wasn't aware it was from TT. I was just trying to get close to the region and 1469 came up, I liked the description, and added it to my cart. Never used it so thanks for the experience point.

I wonder what the heck is wrong with WLP037 because I'd really like to try it. I probably will, on a small batch, to see what happens. Probably end up with a British geuze, after reading McKnuckle's experience.

I do like First Gold and I thought it aligned nicely with Wyeast's description of "stone-fruit." My experience with FG is a definite apricot, and rich citrusy (as opposed to bright citrus, like the American "C's") quality, a kind of lightly baked fruit. So especially on my stronger bitter, I think the 1469 and FG for late hopping should work well.

 

[LarMoeCur]

If memory serves me correctly...WLP002 and Wyeast 1968 are both the Fuller's yeast.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Oh, McKnuckle, I should mention. My cousin is a California winemaker. So we toured Fuller's and left to their shop next door, to buy some bobbles. I look at a tower they had, out of wine bottles....and it was my cousin. Too much - all the way to London, hit their shop, and the guy I grew up with, his wine, was right there.

Small world.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

If memory serves me correctly...WLP002 and Wyeast 1968 are both the Fuller's yeast.

Oh, I didn't know that, Lar. I knew about the 1968 but didn't know about the WLP002. Thanks.

Oh, whoops, I spaced this:

WLP002 English Ale Yeast
A classic ESB strain from one of England's largest independent breweries. This yeast is best suited for English style ales including milds, bitters, porters, and English style stouts. This yeast will leave a beer very clear, and will leave some residual sweetness. The source for the yeast is believed to be Fullers. Attenuation: 63-70% Flocculation: Very High Optimum Fermentation Temperature: 65-68°F Alcohol Tolerance: Medium

 

[LarMoeCur]

No problem...It just happens to be my favorite yeast.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Lar, which one - the 1968 (used this one a lot, back when I last brewed, and liked it very much) or the WLP002? (Never given this one a shot, yet)?

 

[redarmy990]

Thanks Redarmy. I'd imagine we'd all be interested. Would you mind posting it? Can I ask which book it was your dad sent?

Many thanks again. Nice and beautiful country you come from.

Thanks Yorkshire is a fantastic place. The best pint of old peculiar i have ever had was at a bar in Robin hoods bay on Yorkshires east coast.
The book is called Brewing beers like those you buy.
Written by Dave Line
Heres the write up and recipe

Aptly named this brew is unusual,very distinct but pleasantly peculiar
T he dark brew owes much of its charm to the bouquet,flavor and after taste of the priming sugars, My notes record it as one of the best dark draught beers I have tasted and a good example of an old fashioned ale.

5 gallons 6% Alcohol

3 gallon of brewing water for brown ale
4lb dark malt extract
8oz crushed barley
8oz crushed crystal malt
2lb soft dark brown sugar
2oz fuggles
5 saccharin tablets
brewers yeast
3oz black treacle for priming

Boil malt extract malt grains and hops for 45 minutes, carefully strain off the wort into a fermenting bin.
rinse the spent grains and hops with two kettlefuls of hot water, dissolve the main quota of sugar in hot water and add to fermentor top up to final quantity with cold water

When chilled to room temps pitch yeast and saccharin tablets, ferment until activity abates, rack to secondary and keep under airlock pressure for another 7 days

Rack beer from the sediment into a barrel primed with the treacle, allow 7 days conditioning before sampling

Quite an unusual recipe as this is an all grain book but uses malt extract

Hope this helps you guys

 

[McKnuckle]

That recipe is an artifact of its time, I suppose, when homebrewers had far fewer ingredients to work with, and specs like IBU, SRM, and SG were not always provided. Still I appreciate the posting! It's cool to see that treacle is in there, since I plan to use that in my go at OP.

Cheers redarmy990

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Redarmy, thanks a ton. I will have to give it a go. Have to say - I listened to that podcast with Alan Dunn of Black Sheep today. I think I wrote every thought the man gave out, lol. Riggwelter is planned shortly after my first brewday in 15+ years. Then, of course, weather turns, and it's OP time (sung to the Miller time tune).

 

[Hanglow]

Whoops, forgot to address the "double dropping" you mention, Hanglow. This is method where you have 2 vessels one above the other, and at some point the beer is "racked" by simply dropping to the lower vessel, right?

Yes, I think it's 16 hours or so - it means the cold break can settle out and fermentiation isn't quite strong enough to mix it into the wort soi they could take the beer off it and it of course aerated the wort again.

Of course with conicals this is unnecessary now and it's not necessary for homebrewers , but I guess there is a use for it in older commercial breweries who would want a cleared beer quicker

There was clip on youtube from brakspear brewery that showed it but I can't find it now . Brakspear Triple used to be bottled conditioned and I tried doing the double drop with that yeast, no idea if it added/took anything away from the beer as I didn't do a side by side . Sadly their beers have got much worse since refresh then Marstons took them over

Also I've had good success culturing up Fullers yeast from Bengal Lancer and 1845 which are both bottled conditioned , unlike their other bottled and canned beers which are pasteurised. I keep meaning to try them side by side with 002 to see how close they are

 

[Hanglow]

Interesting to see that Dave Line recipe, he did like his saccherine tablets those recipes are definitely of their time. He was an immensely important homebrew author for uk homebrewing apparently, although he died almost 40 years ago

 

[Northern_Brewer]

In my humble personal opinion, the Theakston's beers were softer, maltier, creamier, and had more luscious flavors than each of the similar Black Sheep beers.

You can't argue with personal taste, but...if you want soft and creamy, buy some Brie. Yorkshire bitter is about structure and bitterness, it's the beer of miners and Heathcliff, it's Nuits-St-George to the Volnay of southern bitter - the beer of accountants and David Cameron.

Can you tell which side of that particular fence I sit? To be fair, neither of them are quite what they used to be (Special in particular no longer quite lives up to its name in the same way) and Heineken seem to be looking after Theakston more sympathetically than most of the multinationals with a major British ale brand.

T'interwebs generally seem to think WLP037 is Sam Smith's - and that there were real problems with the 2014 release, so if that's when you tried it it might be worth giving it another go. There's also the nagging suspicion that some of the yeast harvested from bottles that ended up in the WL/Wyeast catalogues are actually bottling yeasts - if you're looking to get yeast from specific British breweries then you're much better off going to Brewlabs. According to the internet their standard "Yorkshire" yeast has a melanistic ovine quality, but they never disclose their sources. However they have 1000's of yeasts and if you ask them for the best yeast to clone Riggwelter, you will allegedly get a different yeast than if you ask them for a yeast to clone Old Peculier. According to the internet...

I've also seen it suggested that the standard Muntons dry yeast (not the premium) is from Fullers. As it happens my last brew was with 1968 - it was a weird beer with bog myrtle so I can't say too much about the flavour performance, but it certainly flocced like a rock - I deliberately didn't add any kind of finings and it's still clear as a bell.

Mixing up Marmite and Vegemite, now that's serious, wars have been fought for less....

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Brakspear Triple used to be bottled conditioned and I tried doing the double drop with that yeast, no idea if it added/took anything away from the beer as I didn't do a side by side . Sadly their beers have got much worse since refresh then Marstons took them over

Here's a 1993 article by Michael Jackson on "old" Brakspear :

the New York Times ran an article by John Mortimer naming Brakspear's as the best bitter to be had in England. I assume he meant Brakspear's 'ordinary' bitter (what would Americans have made of that affectionate designation?) as opposed to the stronger 'special'.

If that was Mortimer's choice, I agree. In its delicate, malty sweetness, teasing, yeasty fruitiness, and hoppy bitterness, Brakspear's 'ordinary' is lightly refreshing, gently sociable, more-ish and appetite-arousing; the perfect combination in a bitter. The hoppiness is its salient feature. Mortimer thought it tasted of 'hop fields in the English summer'.

The old yeast was a "symbiosis" with "distant origins" at Mann's. That sounds like the strain that Simpson's of Baldock bought from Mann's in the 1930s and ended up getting spread quite widely across the Greene King group and evolving quite significantly as it did so. Supposedly they're now using some kind of yeast from Marstons.

 

[Hanglow]

Theakston are family owned again aren't they? I think the Theakston brothers rebought it from Scottish + Newcastle a while ago now

I wish Heineken hadn't messed with Deuchars, that was a great go-to pint back in the day. Not so anymore

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It's a bit complicated but the short version is that although the Theakstons make out like they bought the whole company back from S&N in order to help S&N pay for Bulmers, they just bought enough to get a controlling stake but they still benefit heavily from Heineken distribution. It's a win-win - it's worth Heineken making it one of their main ale brands in their pubs (which they've just bought more of), although they use the 100%-owned Caley for their more "trendy" stuff. Yep, shame about Deuchars.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Interesting thread, guys. Any of you know Mr. Jackson's reasoning behind his connecting the method and "creaminess?" Was it just a paean to these makers he respected?

Northern, regarding burgundies, you speak my language btw. The grape is something that makes my blood move. My cousin is a California winemaker and it's the only wine, it's long been the only wine I'll drink anymore. There's the need for finesse and courage in its making - the courage to leave hands off. I have a Volnay producer (Jean-Pierre Charlot) acquaintance and the region truly is gold to me. When we had our restaurant, my wife won the National Fellow to attend the International Pinot Noir Celebration, Oregon, as a guest, where she met a million wonderful makers, from all over the world. So keep talking. That is, if we're not talking beer.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Yes, I think it's 16 hours or so - it means the cold break can settle out and fermentiation isn't quite strong enough to mix it into the wort soi they could take the beer off it and it of course aerated the wort again.

Of course with conicals this is unnecessary now and it's not necessary for homebrewers , but I guess there is a use for it in older commercial breweries who would want a cleared beer quicker

There was clip on youtube from brakspear brewery that showed it but I can't find it now . Brakspear Triple used to be bottled conditioned and I tried doing the double drop with that yeast, no idea if it added/took anything away from the beer as I didn't do a side by side . Sadly their beers have got much worse since refresh then Marstons took them over

Also I've had good success culturing up Fullers yeast from Bengal Lancer and 1845 which are both bottled conditioned , unlike their other bottled and canned beers which are pasteurised. I keep meaning to try them side by side with 002 to see how close they are

I'll try to track some clips down, thanks, Hanglow. I wish I could harvest those yeasts, but everything we get here has to be dead. Have to do the only "business card harvest" method and bring it back.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Hang, found it - right on Brakspear's site. Very cool! Look up the fermentation video, little over halfway through. Just a simple, gravity drop to the vessel below, where it sits about 3 days, then proceeds as per normal. They said they still used it on their bitter and another one I spaced. Here it is.

Edit: Just watched them all, nice set of vids. I brought back another nice video, VHS unfortunately, from Hook Norton, but it has been lost over several moves. Don't believe the brewery produces one any longer.

 

[Hanglow]

It's a bit complicated but the short version is that although the Theakstons make out like they bought the whole company back from S&N in order to help S&N pay for Bulmers, they just bought enough to get a controlling stake but they still benefit heavily from Heineken distribution. It's a win-win - it's worth Heineken making it one of their main ale brands in their pubs (which they've just bought more of), although they use the 100%-owned Caley for their more "trendy" stuff. Yep, shame about Deuchars.

Cheers, that makes a lot of sense

The Heineken owned pubs in scotland are rather poor by and large I think, would benefit from more theakstons in them

 

[Hanglow]

I've posted this before in the big English Ales thread, but this is worth a watch if you haven't already seen it -Gales old brewery before Fullers bought them for their estate and closed down the brewery
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zw4bqeyKLc[/ame]

And this one for Donnington Brewery
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpLRjkgjt74[/ame]

and to keep it on track for your OP, here's a TT fermentation video from them
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK7p_REuVWU[/ame]

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Awesome, Hanglow! Each vid was instructive, beautiful, and instructive. Thanks very much. The water story for Donningtons....I crave that same kind of elemental connection. Just incredible, truly.

Small one on , came from the Donningtons vid, I think - and by god if it isn't the actor Mark Williams, who plays Mr. Weasley in the Harry Potter series!

 

[Hanglow]

Cheers, not seen that one before

 

[Gadjobrinus]

...a 16.5 square on all sides and a TC opening near the bottom will give me.....

A 19.46 gallon fermentation vat, with an opening near the bottom.

Just sayin.'

Edit: Ugh, sorry for the username confusion, mate. Goes with my territory I'm afraid.

 

[McKnuckle]

A keen eye will notice that the Gales HSB recipe (grain bill at least) is clearly visible in the video. Challenger, Fuggle, and EKG are used, but there is no detail about proportions or timing. Still, since this beer is now made by Fuller's, the yeast choice is obvious and I'm sure the rest can be researched:

Pale malt 3 tons, equal to 3048.15 kg (88%)
39.6 kg black (1.1%)
125 kg crystal (3.6%)
250 kg torrified wheat (7.2%)

3462.75 kg total

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Good pickup, McKnuckle!

 

[Hanglow]

it was 3 tons of pale I think! plus maybe another 150kg

The recipe for HSB I have is based on that and info from an old gales qc employee

MO 76.6%
Brewers Invert No 2 12.8%
Torrified Wheat 6.4%
Crystal 3.2%
Black 1%

Hops- all bittering, no flavour or aroma
26IBU Challenger
11 IBU fuggles

yeast - Gales, available from Brewlabs, bottle conditioned HSB , also available via Hales as Wyeast 1332. Or s04/whitbread b, as gales sourced their yeast from Brickwoods, Portsmouth who used whitbread b since whitbread took them over

ferment warm, 23C ( 74F) for first day - yes that warm

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Beer-Off! I mean, Square-Off!

 

[McKnuckle]

Yes, 3 tons, stupid old eyes of mine... I'll correct my post and recalculate the percentages.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Well, you should see what languages I can construct without my peepers. Thanks again for the pickup, McKnuckle. BTW - McKnuckle, you probably saw these - but a nice article from Leeds, with some great photos of empty as well as full squares in operation:

Leeds Photos

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Working to get the specs down not to slavishly follow them, but to understand them. I believe most methods have some sort of foundation in cultural evolution. Goats and sheep cheese milk in land that is crappy otherwise to use, and these two animals eat anything - and produce good, high value added, cheese.

So, here. I'm trying to think of why there's this upper deck with a manhole and several pipe organs, over just a bottom outlet, a pump, and a fishtail up top. In other words, if the krausen gathers at top, what worry is there you won't be able to gather it, so why not just use one, open, vessel, and rouse and spray the beer, without the deck?

Also, is the whole thing tilted in anyway....i.e., how do they ensure they're gathering up floc'ed yeast from all over the bottom, with a fixed pipe going to the pump?

I've really enjoyed studying this; and am really keyed to try something out in this vein.

 

[Hanglow]

I think it's to help "cleanse" the beer - it probably stops more protein falling back into the beer, so more could be removed than if you just had a standard fermenting vessel

Have you read "The Noted Breweries of Great Britain and Ireland" by Alfred Barnard? It was published at the end of the 19th century, there's a good description of John Smiths yorkshire squares in the first volume. You should be able to find a pdf of it for free online somewhere.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I think it's to help "cleanse" the beer - it probably stops more protein falling back into the beer, so more could be removed than if you just had a standard fermenting vessel

Have you read "The Noted Breweries of Great Britain and Ireland" by Alfred Barnard? It was published at the end of the 19th century, there's a good description of John Smiths yorkshire squares in the first volume. You should be able to find a pdf of it for free online somewhere.

Got it - in 4 volumes - and just read the pertinent sections, Hanglow. Thank you, man. It's a fascinating read otherwise and I'm looking forward to sitting down with Mr. Barnard's entire series.

 

[madscientist451]

Much thanks to Hanglow for posting the videos. This is kind of Off-topic, they're open fermenting, but not using "squares".
The Old-school Donnington Brewery video was extremely interesting to me, so much of the work is done by hand in this age of shiny stainless steel and computers.
Those that are interested in Hot Side Aeration should note that the hot wort is splashed into the open hop back without any concern of HSA.
A quick look at the Donnington website reveals that all their beers are 4.4% ABV or lower. For breweries looking to expand and package the beer for distribution, the concept of brewery owned pubs, like they have in England, looks like a more sustainable business model. Donnington's website says they have 17 pubs, I'm presuming they own these? In some US states, breweries can own as many as 5 pubs.
In some states, breweries can't even have one pub, or if they have one can't sell food or have all kinds of other silly regulations.
I think those regulations are outdated and should be lifted.
My next 3 brews are going to include an English Mild, Donnington's 150 Celebratory Ale and Black Sheep Riggwelter. I'm not doing an open fermentation, but will attempt to "cask condition" the beer in corny kegs instead of force carbonating.

 

[Hanglow]

Yes, lots of HSA in some of the old school breweries. Most newer ones are built to reduce it although given that it is very easy to start brewing commercially in the uk (if not being actually successful), a lot of startups will have a lot of HSA too . It's not necessarily a bad thing for the character of the beer, just depends on what you want really.

And yes, breweries can own thousands of pubs - I mentioned earlier Fullers bought gales purely for their pubs, this has happened a lot - Whitbread for example ended up not owning a brewery, they now own coffee chains etc as the property side of the business was deemed to be better for shareholders

Heineken owns about 3000 pubs, Greene King too, Marstons 1800, Fullers has about 400 now. Then there's a lot with much smaller estates

These pubs can be leased to another party or managed by the brewery. If you go onto the various breweries websites they should tell you what ones are up for lease

 

[Gadjobrinus]

One thing that always amaze me, and I don't have any answer for, is this notion of HSA in the use of coolships. I've seen examples from many places - mostly Great Britian and Belgium, but also Germany, even here (see Jester King example, below). Scientist mentions the hopback, and then after the hopback, the wort gets pumped upstairs to the coolship room where, as with Yorkshire Square technique, it is vigorously sprayed over the shallow tank:





I want to read more about this as it flies in the face of every notion I learned starting out. It's pumped hot and sprayed - not just with a hose, but with a fishtail - into a large, shallow vessel; so that while that helps cool it naturally, the wort has as much surface area exposed to aeration as possible.

-oh, and Ha! In looking for a vid to show, came across this: "Worth the Risk: Homebrewers Playing with Coolships."

 

[McKnuckle]

From the link: "Coolships—open fermentation systems that collect ambient yeast and bacteria to ferment wort."

Um, what? I believe they are shallow copper or stainless trays used for cooling, not fermenting, hence the name. Hook Norton has one at the very top of their 3 story structure (no longer used).

 

[Gadjobrinus]

From the link: "Coolships—open fermentation systems that collect ambient yeast and bacteria to ferment wort."

Um, what? I believe they are shallow copper or stainless trays used for cooling, not fermenting, hence the name. Hook Norton has one at the very top of their 3 story structure (no longer used).

Ha! Didn't even notice that, was so tripped out by the vessel and rolling over in my head. I'll tell you, McKnuckle. We came very close to the model I'd loved from St. Peter's, in England. Country brewery, barnhouse, feeding the lowing cattle or baaing sheep out back with spent grain. This was in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan but we met fierce resistance by frightened business owners ("they'll take our business away") to regulators (literally, a kind of "sin" issue) at the time, too fierce as it turns out. Crazy thing is, all kinds of craft brewers up there now. Just like our French restaurant, first in the region, now, the idea isn't so completely "strange."

So, yes, romantic vision - but a country nanobrewery. So I saw this 1/2 1/2 bbl, and went, hmmm. Missed most of the writing, lol!

 

[Hanglow]

Elgoods also have a double one. They mothballed them ages ago to get more consistency and higher QC, but recently they were talked into using them for a lambic inspired beer, so they created Elgoods Coolship . But yeah, no fermentation, only cooling and inoculating

 

[f00b4r]

If you want to use lazy Yorkshire yeasts, get a SS ladle and a blow torch. During initial active open fermentation blowtorch the ladle to sterilise, quench the ladle in the wort and spoon the beer from a height over it several times. Repeat a few times a day during active fermentation.

Btw I saw someone recently do a side by side of 002 and Fullers cultured up from a bottle and they behaved very differently.