Yorkshire Square on a home level?

[Hanglow]

I've posted this before in the big English Ales thread, but this is worth a watch if you haven't already seen it -Gales old brewery before Fullers bought them for their estate and closed down the brewery
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zw4bqeyKLc[/ame]

And this one for Donnington Brewery
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpLRjkgjt74[/ame]

and to keep it on track for your OP, here's a TT fermentation video from them
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK7p_REuVWU[/ame]

 

[user 246304]

Awesome, Hanglow! Each vid was instructive, beautiful, and instructive. Thanks very much. The water story for Donningtons....I crave that same kind of elemental connection. Just incredible, truly.

Small one on , came from the Donningtons vid, I think - and by god if it isn't the actor Mark Williams, who plays Mr. Weasley in the Harry Potter series!

 

[Hanglow]

Cheers, not seen that one before

 

[user 246304]

...a 16.5 square on all sides and a TC opening near the bottom will give me.....

A 19.46 gallon fermentation vat, with an opening near the bottom.

Just sayin.'

Edit: Ugh, sorry for the username confusion, mate. Goes with my territory I'm afraid.

 

[McKnuckle]

A keen eye will notice that the Gales HSB recipe (grain bill at least) is clearly visible in the video. Challenger, Fuggle, and EKG are used, but there is no detail about proportions or timing. Still, since this beer is now made by Fuller's, the yeast choice is obvious and I'm sure the rest can be researched:

Pale malt 3 tons, equal to 3048.15 kg (88%)
39.6 kg black (1.1%)
125 kg crystal (3.6%)
250 kg torrified wheat (7.2%)

3462.75 kg total

 

[user 246304]

Good pickup, McKnuckle!

 

[Hanglow]

it was 3 tons of pale I think! plus maybe another 150kg

The recipe for HSB I have is based on that and info from an old gales qc employee

MO 76.6%
Brewers Invert No 2 12.8%
Torrified Wheat 6.4%
Crystal 3.2%
Black 1%

Hops- all bittering, no flavour or aroma
26IBU Challenger
11 IBU fuggles

yeast - Gales, available from Brewlabs, bottle conditioned HSB , also available via Hales as Wyeast 1332. Or s04/whitbread b, as gales sourced their yeast from Brickwoods, Portsmouth who used whitbread b since whitbread took them over

ferment warm, 23C ( 74F) for first day - yes that warm

 

[user 246304]

Beer-Off! I mean, Square-Off!

 

[McKnuckle]

Yes, 3 tons, stupid old eyes of mine... I'll correct my post and recalculate the percentages.

 

[user 246304]

Well, you should see what languages I can construct without my peepers. Thanks again for the pickup, McKnuckle. BTW - McKnuckle, you probably saw these - but a nice article from Leeds, with some great photos of empty as well as full squares in operation:

Leeds Photos

 

[user 246304]

Working to get the specs down not to slavishly follow them, but to understand them. I believe most methods have some sort of foundation in cultural evolution. Goats and sheep cheese milk in land that is crappy otherwise to use, and these two animals eat anything - and produce good, high value added, cheese.

So, here. I'm trying to think of why there's this upper deck with a manhole and several pipe organs, over just a bottom outlet, a pump, and a fishtail up top. In other words, if the krausen gathers at top, what worry is there you won't be able to gather it, so why not just use one, open, vessel, and rouse and spray the beer, without the deck?

Also, is the whole thing tilted in anyway....i.e., how do they ensure they're gathering up floc'ed yeast from all over the bottom, with a fixed pipe going to the pump?

I've really enjoyed studying this; and am really keyed to try something out in this vein.

 

[Hanglow]

I think it's to help "cleanse" the beer - it probably stops more protein falling back into the beer, so more could be removed than if you just had a standard fermenting vessel

Have you read "The Noted Breweries of Great Britain and Ireland" by Alfred Barnard? It was published at the end of the 19th century, there's a good description of John Smiths yorkshire squares in the first volume. You should be able to find a pdf of it for free online somewhere.

 

[user 246304]

I think it's to help "cleanse" the beer - it probably stops more protein falling back into the beer, so more could be removed than if you just had a standard fermenting vessel

Have you read "The Noted Breweries of Great Britain and Ireland" by Alfred Barnard? It was published at the end of the 19th century, there's a good description of John Smiths yorkshire squares in the first volume. You should be able to find a pdf of it for free online somewhere.

Got it - in 4 volumes - and just read the pertinent sections, Hanglow. Thank you, man. It's a fascinating read otherwise and I'm looking forward to sitting down with Mr. Barnard's entire series.

 

[madscientist451]

Much thanks to Hanglow for posting the videos. This is kind of Off-topic, they're open fermenting, but not using "squares".
The Old-school Donnington Brewery video was extremely interesting to me, so much of the work is done by hand in this age of shiny stainless steel and computers.
Those that are interested in Hot Side Aeration should note that the hot wort is splashed into the open hop back without any concern of HSA.
A quick look at the Donnington website reveals that all their beers are 4.4% ABV or lower. For breweries looking to expand and package the beer for distribution, the concept of brewery owned pubs, like they have in England, looks like a more sustainable business model. Donnington's website says they have 17 pubs, I'm presuming they own these? In some US states, breweries can own as many as 5 pubs.
In some states, breweries can't even have one pub, or if they have one can't sell food or have all kinds of other silly regulations.
I think those regulations are outdated and should be lifted.
My next 3 brews are going to include an English Mild, Donnington's 150 Celebratory Ale and Black Sheep Riggwelter. I'm not doing an open fermentation, but will attempt to "cask condition" the beer in corny kegs instead of force carbonating.

 

[Hanglow]

Yes, lots of HSA in some of the old school breweries. Most newer ones are built to reduce it although given that it is very easy to start brewing commercially in the uk (if not being actually successful), a lot of startups will have a lot of HSA too . It's not necessarily a bad thing for the character of the beer, just depends on what you want really.

And yes, breweries can own thousands of pubs - I mentioned earlier Fullers bought gales purely for their pubs, this has happened a lot - Whitbread for example ended up not owning a brewery, they now own coffee chains etc as the property side of the business was deemed to be better for shareholders

Heineken owns about 3000 pubs, Greene King too, Marstons 1800, Fullers has about 400 now. Then there's a lot with much smaller estates

These pubs can be leased to another party or managed by the brewery. If you go onto the various breweries websites they should tell you what ones are up for lease

 

[user 246304]

One thing that always amaze me, and I don't have any answer for, is this notion of HSA in the use of coolships. I've seen examples from many places - mostly Great Britian and Belgium, but also Germany, even here (see Jester King example, below). Scientist mentions the hopback, and then after the hopback, the wort gets pumped upstairs to the coolship room where, as with Yorkshire Square technique, it is vigorously sprayed over the shallow tank:





I want to read more about this as it flies in the face of every notion I learned starting out. It's pumped hot and sprayed - not just with a hose, but with a fishtail - into a large, shallow vessel; so that while that helps cool it naturally, the wort has as much surface area exposed to aeration as possible.

-oh, and Ha! In looking for a vid to show, came across this: "Worth the Risk: Homebrewers Playing with Coolships."

 

[McKnuckle]

From the link: "Coolships—open fermentation systems that collect ambient yeast and bacteria to ferment wort."

Um, what? I believe they are shallow copper or stainless trays used for cooling, not fermenting, hence the name. Hook Norton has one at the very top of their 3 story structure (no longer used).

 

[user 246304]

From the link: "Coolships—open fermentation systems that collect ambient yeast and bacteria to ferment wort."

Um, what? I believe they are shallow copper or stainless trays used for cooling, not fermenting, hence the name. Hook Norton has one at the very top of their 3 story structure (no longer used).

Ha! Didn't even notice that, was so tripped out by the vessel and rolling over in my head. I'll tell you, McKnuckle. We came very close to the model I'd loved from St. Peter's, in England. Country brewery, barnhouse, feeding the lowing cattle or baaing sheep out back with spent grain. This was in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan but we met fierce resistance by frightened business owners ("they'll take our business away") to regulators (literally, a kind of "sin" issue) at the time, too fierce as it turns out. Crazy thing is, all kinds of craft brewers up there now. Just like our French restaurant, first in the region, now, the idea isn't so completely "strange."

So, yes, romantic vision - but a country nanobrewery. So I saw this 1/2 1/2 bbl, and went, hmmm. Missed most of the writing, lol!

 

[Hanglow]

Elgoods also have a double one. They mothballed them ages ago to get more consistency and higher QC, but recently they were talked into using them for a lambic inspired beer, so they created Elgoods Coolship . But yeah, no fermentation, only cooling and inoculating

 

[f00b4r]

If you want to use lazy Yorkshire yeasts, get a SS ladle and a blow torch. During initial active open fermentation blowtorch the ladle to sterilise, quench the ladle in the wort and spoon the beer from a height over it several times. Repeat a few times a day during active fermentation.

Btw I saw someone recently do a side by side of 002 and Fullers cultured up from a bottle and they behaved very differently.

 

[McKnuckle]

blowtorch the ladle to sterilise

I would imagine that a dip in StarSan would also work and be far less dramatic?

 

[user 246304]

Elgoods also have a double one. They mothballed them ages ago to get more consistency and higher QC, but recently they were talked into using them for a lambic inspired beer, so they created Elgoods Coolship . But yeah, no fermentation, only cooling and inoculating

Thanks for turning me on to the brewery, Hanglow. Yeah, interesting to read under the video of the coolship getting filled (I do love how that looks, a fan filling wort or beer), that the process "attracts a range of wild yeasts and flavors unique to Cambridgeshire." Have you tried this? Is it going after a true lambic, or more of a lambic technique, with British ingredients?

 

[f00b4r]

Far less fun. [emoji3] Also I don't think anything at all will be living on that ladle, even the stuff Starsan won't kill. Either should work though and doesn't require a whole bunch of new equipment.

 

[user 246304]

foob4r, I don't think I'm following you. You mention the ladle - are we talking a ladle in a standard homebrew bucket?

 

[f00b4r]

foob4r, I don't think I'm following you. You mention the ladle - are we talking a ladle in a standard homebrew bucket?

Yes a cooking ladle in a standard bucket fermenter.

 

[user 246304]

You're talking about splashing with the ladle, then? Again, I think I missed something - you're not saying that has the equivalent effect as something like the Yorkshire Square - right?

 

[McKnuckle]

We don't need a pump and a sprayer at the homebrew level. All we need to do is rouse the yeast manually. A ladle is a fine implement for doing that. That's exactly what I used with my 2 gallon experiment a while back. Obviously one can't reasonably do so around the clock every 3 hours, but we can at least do it a few times a day.

Watch:

 

[user 246304]

Reading through the old Barnard book, thank you again, Hanglow - really pleasurable read from another time.

His description of the upper deck as a "square back for holding the yeast grown during fermentation." It does beg the question I've been wanting to ask since looking at this system, and that is, why would you want to keep krausen yeast from your wort, only giving it a brief contact time every 3 hours during the growth fermentation phase?

 

[user 246304]

Our posts crossed, McKnuckle. Fantastic video! Thanks for posting. I was about to edit my post to say, in contrast to a true Yorkshire Square system, why not do what you and foob4r are suggesting - essentially, simply rousing the yeast like countless traditional breweries do?

Again I always think about culinary evolution, basically; how a food or a process tends to emanate out of the land, or what the land gives. I suspect the Yorkshire square is required because of the yeast - mere rousing won't do. I'm not sure why. I also think the end result is different, the process lends something different than mere roused yeast, and again I can't figure out why.

I emulate professional practice as professional practice, as almost comically unlikely as that might be anymore, is not far from my mind. And if I control for variables, I've always felt, then I need to be as exacting as I can to do just that.

 

[trailrider]

Has anybody tried an open fermentation in a conical? I plan to make a English Porter (5 Gal Batch) in a 7 gal Fast fermenter using Ringwood Ale (W1187) yeast. I'm wondering if leaving the top off the FF will achieve a result close to the open square. Rousing the yeast may be more difficult but I'm hopping it would be worth the effort. Also, since my brewing space is also occupied by cars and other thing found in the garage I may need to cover the open conical with a clean cloth to prevent thing from dropping in. Hope that will have no ill effect.